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Found it DaBruinz, at 3:27 in the 1st:

Cross: "So Don, what do you think of the 4-3 defense? I know everyone always associates the 3-4 with Bill Belichick and the Patriots or some derivation, but he told us last night that Dean Pees was going to be running a significant amount, if not all, of 4-3. My eyebrows shot up and I said, 'really'?"
 
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Brandon merriweather is ready to take it to the next level. James sanders is not.

agree that merriweather looked to be around the ball more than last year. Sanders made a lot of very solid tackles, though.


will someone explain to me how wilhite was picked in the 4th round while weatley was picked in the 2nd. Clearly you couldn't tell by their relative performances.

i guess others have answered this. Wilhite is taking the classic year two jump that we'll hopefully see next year from wheatley. I was in a hotel and by fluke able to find the game on nfl network, and hadn't seen wilhite --- or bodden. Not knowing either's number yet, i kept saying "who's 24 and 23? They look solid!"


jay feely is not a bad qb, which makes me wonder why the eagles took on vick. Don't they have their qb of the future in kevin kolb, and feely as #3 is better than a lot of team's #2. Where does vick fit in? I'd rather have feely than walter.

feely looked like he could start for some teams.


the pats tackling wasn't good overall, though merriweather made some very good form tackles. I think bb will make note of that.

Well that's what i saw. What did you think?

i also saw gostkowski outkick lefty eagle. Gost made a 49 while akers missed a 43 --- ballgame. Also ballgame was our (backup) d's stop on 3rd and 1 around the 26 late in the game to force the missed fg try. Also ballgame was chung's fg block.

if lewis fizzles, and ellis hobbs is out and/or injured, then we agreed to both flush 5th round picks?
 
My thought on the 3-4 vs 4-3:

BB is expecting to have an explosive offense. Having an extensive 4 DL package will allow for a better pass rush (expect to see it as a regular 43, nickel, and dime). We'll also see it in short yardage situations. The 6-1 front intrigued me as well and I expect to see that some too. Don't disregard the 34 though, we'll still see it a ton, especially with a schedule with a bunch of run-heavy teams.
 
Found it DaBruinz, at 3:27 in the 1st:

Cross: "So Don, what do you think of the 4-3 defense? I know everyone always associates the 3-4 with Bill Belichick and the Patriots or some derivation, but he told us last night that Dean Pees was going to be running a significant amount, if not all, of 4-3. My eyebrows shot up and I said, 'really'?"

I think that quote could be taken out of context, and you may have done just that. He doesn't usually give away seasonal plans and strategies. Pre game strategies to broadcast teams, yeah. So he may have told them Dean Peas was going to be running a significant amount of, if not all, of 4-3 in week 1 of the preseason...

Patriots are cooking up schemes - The Boston Globe
 
I think that quote could be taken out of context, and you may have done just that. He doesn't usually give away seasonal plans and strategies. Pre game strategies to broadcast teams, yeah. So he may have told them Dean Peas was going to be running a significant amount of, if not all, of 4-3 in week 1 of the preseason...

Patriots are cooking up schemes - The Boston Globe

I never construed that otherwise. It was Frezo who first mentioned it; I only confirmed that it was used. I've been arguing that the Pats will use a 4-3 this season long before the Eagles game and based on a lot more than just that comment.
 
2:19 in the 1st Qtr:
Thankee kindly, Mr. Box. You and PFK and DaBruinz and others who watch and observe the replay of the game are why this board is great.
I am just adding to what Box saw.. its amazing how easy it is to get sucked into breaking things down..
Good thing, I like reading it.

Aside from the inevitable crap about Maroney (can we please give it a rest?) this thread is terrific.
If Welker went down last year we didn't have a receiver who fit his skill set.
Good point. Who of us didn't worry whenever Welker threw his body around the field? He's so important and up until now, no one on the team had anywhere near his combination of skills.

For where Edelman is in his development, seeing him playing with the one's and getting open against one of the top pass D's in the league is a lot more than encouraging. It's outstanding.
Plus, I bet he has a waaaayyy better arm than Welker.
Yes, but Welker can kick. :)

On the interception and complaints that Moss didn't fight for it, I'll give him that one. It's preseason.

Question for Box and others: if you have the time, I'd appreciate your thoughts on why the run D struggled. Learning the 4-3? Losing fits while playing one-gap? Mis-reading offensive plays (like the screen plays)?

Or simply playing a good team and hey, it was 20-6 or something at half-time, it's not like Philly was beating them. Sometimes the other guys deserve some credit, too.

My own opinion here: it's preseason and while BB still wants his front-seven to win, he's not game-planning so much as he's trying combinations in live action to teach and to test his players. We should be careful of our expectations for the group and instead focus on the individuals (as the TIVO guy are doing).

Lastly, on BB's assertions that he's going to a 4-3. If he's telling the truth, then I'm disappointed that he's truthful. I prefer for him to be deceptive in his statements. And I trust he is. :) If he does end up playing a 4-3 it won't have much to do with what he says.

Very lastly, because I haven't heard it and we shouldn't take it for granted: no injuries that I recall. Wilhite got his bell rung, hopefully he's all right.
 
1) I'll start off by saying that I'm very appreciative of those on this board willing to share thier knowledge. This has been a great thread. I have always thought that I'd enjoy the game more if I understood it better.

A couple questions for the masses.

2) If you had the right personnel, is is possible to discard the notion of a base defense? Can every defensive snap theoretically have an independent personnel deployment subject only to things like field position, down/distance, the attributes of the opposing personnel and the opportunity to change the deployment? Why would someone commit to a base defense?

3) if you were an opposing offensive coach, would your ability to determine and install a game plan be significantly difficult if you did not know what type of base defense you were going to face?
 
1) I'll start off by saying that I'm very appreciative of those on this board willing to share thier knowledge. This has been a great thread. I have always thought that I'd enjoy the game more if I understood it better.

A couple questions for the masses.

2) If you had the right personnel, is is possible to discard the notion of a base defense? Can every defensive snap theoretically have an independent personnel deployment subject only to things like field position, down/distance, the attributes of the opposing personnel and the opportunity to change the deployment? Why would someone commit to a base defense?

3) if you were an opposing offensive coach, would your ability to determine and install a game plan be significantly difficult if you did not know what type of base defense you were going to face?

1) No worries mate I love sharing
2)Yes I would, My reasons: mysterious
3)If I were an opposing coach my favorite team would lose so lets not go there
 
1) I'll start off by saying that I'm very appreciative of those on this board willing to share thier knowledge. This has been a great thread. I have always thought that I'd enjoy the game more if I understood it better.

A couple questions for the masses.

2) If you had the right personnel, is is possible to discard the notion of a base defense? Can every defensive snap theoretically have an independent personnel deployment subject only to things like field position, down/distance, the attributes of the opposing personnel and the opportunity to change the deployment? Why would someone commit to a base defense?

3) if you were an opposing offensive coach, would your ability to determine and install a game plan be significantly difficult if you did not know what type of base defense you were going to face?

I whole-heartedly agree with (1) above. Thank you to Box, DaBruinz, PFK, and others for giving us a much deeper insight and understanding.

I LOVE this time of year.
 
In the roster projection thread, I had Bruschi being cut. That, of course, spawned a lot of reaction and much of this 4-3 vs. 3-4 talk.

I hate to admit it because of my man love for Bruschi, but I have to agree with that. I think this is the year that Bru is finally placed on the well known "Shadow Roster".
 
2) If you had the right personnel, is is possible to discard the notion of a base defense? Can every defensive snap theoretically have an independent personnel deployment subject only to things like field position, down/distance, the attributes of the opposing personnel and the opportunity to change the deployment? Why would someone commit to a base defense?
Yes, of course you can have different personnel for each down/disteance, field position, scoreboard, etc, but what defense do you put in when it is first and ten of a scoreless game with the ball in the other teams side of the field? That is the defense you will likely start with, and one that you will likely go back to after you punt the ball.

You can call it anything you want, but think of this one as the base defense, the one that will be your best bet when the other team has all it's options available to it. It is the one likely to be used the most.

Then change at will. I'm not sure what you mean by commit to it, but I agree that no one would. I don't know of any team that commits to a base defense and never changes it.

Also, a base defense doesn't have to be base for life. It can change game by game. In fact, it should. Using the same base defense (again, think of the scoreless 1st and 10 defense) vs the Colts and the Ravens or Steelers wouldn't make sense.
 
How is the defense, as it is today, not built for the 4-3? I'm not trying to start another argument, I just want to hear why.

We have pash rushers in Thomas and Burgess, backups in Woods, TBC, Crable. Thomas and Woods can both drop into coverage. Seymour and Wilfork should get more pressure with fewer double teams. The starting linemen all appear to be above average or better against the run.

The secondary doesn't change much. What am I missing?
I think the defensive line is built for controlling 2-gap, not a penetrating 1-gap.

That is more significant than 34 or 43. Even in the 3-4, there is often a LB up on the line and usually there are 4 rushers (one could be a safety, ILB or OLB).

Seymour played nose almost exclusively in 2001. Warren and Green both played nose at times. Wilfork, Wright, and Smith play NT and DE. Brace and Pryor are DTs but play a lot of DE so far. Most of our OLBs are former DEs.

All that says is that the Pats can use pretty much any combination of players lined up in any DL arrangement.

I really think the 3-4 vs 4-3 is overblown, so I don't think you are missing anything at all.
 
Question for Box and others: if you have the time, I'd appreciate your thoughts on why the run D struggled. Learning the 4-3? Losing fits while playing one-gap?
Follow-on question: Were they playing 1-gap as well as 4-3? I didn't notice than and I've deleted the game from my DVR.
 
Follow-on question: Were they playing 1-gap as well as 4-3? I didn't notice than and I've deleted the game from my DVR.

Yes, it did seem that they were playing a 1 Gap defense last night... But, I'll be honest, it was extremely hard to tell because of how the Philly O-line was doubling up one of the Pats D-line on almost every play...
 
Oh man I was just lurking at an Eagles board to see what they thought of our players. As you can imagine a lot of the respect was for Edelman. They were quite impressed by him. But I noticed they kept calling the guy that was on Seymour ; IHOP. I had never heard this nickname for any player and asked who the guy was and what the hell is IHOP. Long story short, They were calling the guy IHOP because he kept pancaking Seymour. Emburrsin! I was shamed!
 
It looks to me that the 2 biggest issues to date are Moroney and what kind of defense we are going to play.

Personally I agree with spacecrime, that the 4-3, 3-4 debate is wildly overblown. The Pats have used both for the last nine years in case you've missed it, along with a few occassional additional alignments. He made an excellent point that not only do the Pats have DLmen who can play multiple positions, nearly ALL of their LBs were DLmen in college,

NOW is when you take the time to experiment with these differning combination, especially when your full DL isn't quite ready for full time play, and you have 3 rookie DLmen to evaluate.

I've been thinking of this so called "transition" to the 4-3, and this just occurred to me. The 3-4 has 2 distinct advantages. First it is very good against the run, especially outside the Gs. Secondly, and most importantly, it is easier to disguise your pass rush from a 3-4 than a 4-3.

Well the rushing game has changed a lot in the last several years. Now days instead of play action passes, you have pass action runs. Much to my dismay, a great deal of the Pats running attack comes off of passing formations and looks. Perhaps this move TOWARDS a 4-3 is a reaction to this evolution of the running game. Could be, I couldn't think of any other reason, given that IMHO we DON'T have the ideal LB group to run a 4-3 on a regular basis.

And as to Moroney.....well I don't want to open that can of worms again, but let me be upfront in saying that the Haters will be eating a lot of crow at the end of this season.....and I WILL be serving it...HOT.
 
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Question for Box and others: if you have the time, I'd appreciate your thoughts on why the run D struggled. Learning the 4-3? Losing fits while playing one-gap? Mis-reading offensive plays (like the screen plays)?

Or simply playing a good team and hey, it was 20-6 or something at half-time, it's not like Philly was beating them. Sometimes the other guys deserve some credit, too.

My own opinion here: it's preseason and while BB still wants his front-seven to win, he's not game-planning so much as he's trying combinations in live action to teach and to test his players. We should be careful of our expectations for the group and instead focus on the individuals (as the TIVO guy are doing).

Lastly, on BB's assertions that he's going to a 4-3. If he's telling the truth, then I'm disappointed that he's truthful. I prefer for him to be deceptive in his statements. And I trust he is. :) If he does end up playing a 4-3 it won't have much to do with what he says.

Very lastly, because I haven't heard it and we shouldn't take it for granted: no injuries that I recall. Wilhite got his bell rung, hopefully he's all right.
[W]hy the run D struggled?

1. Experimentation - Pees & Peppers & Patricia (Oh my!) were in the lab.

2. AllWorldTE at Planet noted a 4-3 DE technique failure by one of the Pats at one point, then came back to it later when the same play was run against Burgess' side and how the more experienced traditional 4-3 DE executed the technique to perfection. I'm in agreement with spacecrime, the underlying gap-control principle of this defense won't change, but I believe this answers the infamous Mr. crime's question on one-gap play in Philly - yes. The coaches haven't put in much time on one-gap techniques, but they experimented with one-gap options to plan their training schedule for in-season. There's a bit of alchemy ongoing, just disregard the noxious vapors while the lead is converting.

3. Heavy vs pass rush packages change the dynamics, since the Pats didn't waste time working extensively on run fits for a preseason game, it stands to reason the various packages were, at best, "coarse" tuned for this game.

Chris Gasper has a Globe article on the 4-3 that's good reading.

Funk my man!

2) If you had the right personnel, is is possible to discard the notion of a base defense? Can every defensive snap theoretically have an independent personnel deployment subject only to things like field position, down/distance, the attributes of the opposing personnel and the opportunity to change the deployment? Why would someone commit to a base defense?

3) if you were an opposing offensive coach, would your ability to determine and install a game plan be significantly difficult if you did not know what type of base defense you were going to face?
I'm with space again (which is going to get me arrested sooner rather than later I'm afraid), the "base" is simply the combination of formation and philosophy which you apply to minimize or disrupt the offense when they are in their "base" situation. In SB39, NE used a base 4-3 designed to keep McNabb in the pocket and limit Westbrook's touches. NE basically said 'Stay in the pocket and throw to Owens all day long, but if you get out of the pocket bad things will happen to us.'

space's point on 3-4 vs 4-3 and one-gap vs two-gap applies to the coach's committment to a philosophy rather than a formation. Let's consider the premise "all coaches want to control the line of scrimmage." Tony Dungy did it with quickness and penetration to disrupt the backfield, Cowher's defenses used surprise and blitzing to penetrate and disrupt, the Parcells tree prefers to do it by controlling the running and throwing lanes across the line of scrimmage. All have won Super Bowls, which makes all valid if you have the personnel.

I'm sure someone will have a question on throwing lanes. Think of Doug Flutie, 6' tall, agile, running around behind the line, on each play called the O-line has blocking assignments designed to open lanes in the defense - and the O-line itself - to provide the QB vision upfield to where the WR is supposed to be running. Flutie had to move as much to see upfield as to avoid tacklers. A good example of an O-line creating a throwing lane is when the tackles will cut block the defender coming off the edge to force him to lower his hands for a quick throw into the flat - you don't see it as much anymore, but Light, Ashworth, and Gorin used to do this several times a game so Tommy could hit Meion or D-Giv or Troy.

Taller QBs makes it easier to create a throwing lane, which is why 6'4" Tommy Brady and 6'5" Peyton Manning are already a step up on 6' Drew Brees. But Brady's shortest starter is 6'2" Dan Koppen, the others are Brady's height or taller - and it gets harder in the future as Vollmer 6'8", LeVoir 6'7", O'Callaghan 6'7", Britt 6'8", etc. work into the line-up. On the other side, BB is trying to bring in tall, long-armed defenders to clog those lanes: Seymour 6'6", Warren 6'5", Wright 6'4", Crable 6'6", Woods 6'5", Brace 6'3" (long arms), Richard 6'4". BB does have smaller DL/LB, but if you look at them they are guys who use quickness to penetrate and then clog those lanes by being in the QB's face: Green 6'3", Pryor 6', TBC 6'3", A. Thomas 6'2"... They are more often than not your passing down specialists or freaks of nature (the good kind).

In the Philly game the D-line looked to be experimenting some one-gap applications, Pryor, Green, and Wilfork exploded through the line and disrupted on some occasions, Seymour, Brace, and Smith not so often. On Philly's first scoring drive they moved the ball well using misdirection against what looked to be one-gapping, once they got into the red zone, NE suddenly two-gapped and the run game froze up for Philly - they were forced to pass which made them one dimensional, BB's kind of game. The whole time NE never got out of a 4-man front, they just switched to BB's base philosophy when the chips where down.

What makes me believe NE used one-gap is a play where Wilfork was doubled, while Brace and Seymour slanted inside off the snap and were taken inside by their blockers opening a huge hole over LT. You had Woods blocked by the FB and Mayo by the TE leaving Sanders to close the outside lane and Adalius coming over from OLB to close the inside lane, the damage was limited, but it was a close thing. Those big holes opened up often enough to have us all grumbling, but game one of preseason is more of a test of ideas and personnel.
 
Oh man I was just lurking at an Eagles board to see what they thought of our players. As you can imagine a lot of the respect was for Edelman. They were quite impressed by him. But I noticed they kept calling the guy that was on Seymour ; IHOP. I had never heard this nickname for any player and asked who the guy was and what the hell is IHOP. Long story short, They were calling the guy IHOP because he kept pancaking Seymour. Emburrsin! I was shamed!

What I've been saying for the last year (and resented by some here 'cause of it) but the eyes don't lie.

QB12
 
Yes, it did seem that they were playing a 1 Gap defense last night... But, I'll be honest, it was extremely hard to tell because of how the Philly O-line was doubling up one of the Pats D-line on almost every play...
Yes, I didn't notice, and the next time NFLN replays the game is tomorrow afternoon so I can't check.
 
What I've been saying for the last year (and resented by some here 'cause of it) but the eyes don't lie.

QB12

They must have watched a different game because Seymour wasn't being put on his back much at ill.. In fact, I don't remember a single play in which Seymour was Pancaked..
 
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