In BB We Trust

fair catch fryar said:

In BB I trust until someone better comes along. WTF! I mean seriously, this guy is the best out there. Sure he makes mistakes, but those mistakes ultimately make him better. Who here on this board really believes they know better than Bill Belichick?

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Me. I know more.




That's why they're paying me to sit at home in my underwear and post on Patsfans.com, because you know Bill reads this board, and he's just waiting for my post to figure out what to do next.

upstater1 said:

Me. I know more.




That's why they're paying me to sit at home in my underwear and post on Patsfans.com, because you know Bill reads this board, and he's just waiting for my post to figure out what to do next.

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Precisely and I'm sure I'll get flamed by all the naysayers on this board who really believe they have their finger on the pulse of the Patriots.

The_Riddler said:

1. Hiring the non-imaginative Dean Pees to allow mediocre QB's to look like HOFers

2. Passing on Rey Maualuga twice in the 2009 NFL draft

3. Deltha O'Neal

4. Arming TB with a #1 WR called Reche Caldwell

5. Not calling a timeout during the Colts AFCCG in Indy as Peyton stood there letting precious seconds tick away before the dive call to Addai. Camera focused on BB who had the deer in headlights look 25 precious seconds ticked away on TB. Inexcusable.......

6. Constantly dealing down for non-impact players who are more cost effective instead of taking the Jets approach and dealing up for guys like Sanchez and Revis......

7. Maroney, CJackson, KOC

Give me some more time, I'll think of others, I definately am a Pats fan, but I do not drink the koolaid, I'll call it like it is.

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1. I'm not a fan of Pees either but not because the philosophy on defense.

2. I would have passed as well. Maulauga is not going to be effective in the Pats' D. He used to get caught up in traffic a lot in college. He'd be lost in the NFL. Nor was he going to sit behind Mayo.

3. Point for you. But O'Neal was a free agent, and we had no one else, as the two rookies that came in were not ready. Or are you sayin we should have paid Samuel $9 million a year?

4. I would have stuck with Branch that year, and I've always said so, because wit Branch we would have won a Super Bowl. That being said, in hindsight, Branch was not worth what the Seahawks paid him.

5. Gameday decisions? Really, you're going to criticize those years after the fact?

6 and 7. Dealing down for player is what allows you to have 4 2nd rounders in a single draft, plus more the next year. We have three in this upcoming draft. You have to wait to see how Chung, Butler, Vollmer and Brace pan out, and then you have to ask, was it worth it? Three of those kids are showing signs of being real contributors and starters as rookies. By the end of the year, three of them could easily be starting after taking starting spots from solid current starters.

When you're a NFL coach and head guy in charge of drafting, you will make hundreds if not thousands of mistakes. That's because you are making 100,000s of decisions each and every year.

BradyFTW! said:

Anyways, I'd like to be able to discuss it without being called a spoiled, bandwagon, chicken little pessimist. People see what they want to see, though, so go figure. Over the course of about a month I've been called a delusional homer and a delusional hater, which I guess just pretty much proves that I'm neither.

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I don't think anyone of the longtime posters wants to squelch all negativity. I would say you do not fall under the camp of chicken little. There are lots of chicken littles on the board currently though.

People don't like to lose to the Jets...plain and simple. If we had lost to the dolphins in the same manner, people wouldn't be this frantic. The offense was off and had a bad game, the D was fine. It's a long season, and this team will improve as the year goes on.

AndyJohnson said:

It has somehow become vogue to consider fans who have confidence in BB blind, ignorant, unthinking homers. While those that question him, doubt him, and expect the worst, are simply being realists.
Consider this:
In the last 8 years"
1 time we lacked talent to compete (2002)
1 time we lost our GOAT QB
In the other 6 seasons with everything else that got in the way, with all of the criticisms of scheme, play calling, coordinators, drafting, etc, etc there were 6 other seasons
5 were at least to the AFFC (4 to the Sb, and 3 SB wins)
1 was a divisional round loss in the year we tried to 3peat when Bruschi had a stroke

Given that we do not lack talent, as in 2002, and Brady is at QB, history says 5/6th of the time we advance at least to the AFCC with a great shot at winning it, and a great shot at winning the next one, and 1/6th of the time, we only advance to the divisional round.

Explain to me again why believing in BB is the unthinking (Koolaid slurping) approach and doubting him is the well thought out reasoned one.

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Andy,

First, for me personally, IBBIT. For me, Bill Walsh and Bill Belichick are the only 2 NFL coaches I've seen who truly deserve the "genius" label so often applied. They stand apart for their innovative schemes (offense for Walsh, defense for Belchick), HC ability, game management, personnel management, general manager capability, and ability to sustain it over the long haul. Bill Parcells is probably the only other guy around who can even make a claim to being able to excel at all those things.

That's not to say BB isn't fallible. Some of the most exceptional people I've ever worked with are prone to ego and judgment issues, and I'm sure BB would be the first to admit that he's made some mistakes. That's fine. He's made fewer than most, and more than enough brilliant moves to make up for it.

As far as I look at it, we ended the season with legitimate SB contenders in 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006 and 2007. The 2002 and 2005 teams had major flaws. 2008 might well have been a contender but for TB's injury, though I question whether our porous secondary would have held up in the postseason. With 4 SB appearances and 3 wins, that's far better than anyone else can claim.

My biggest concern right now is that I believe that we have the talent to legitimately compete this year, but I don't believe that the style we are playing will allow us to be competitive if we continue the way we have started. It's more than just being rusty on offense and young/injured on defense. We just can't throw the ball 50 times a game and expect opposing defenses not to adjust. We can't just play a soft defensive scheme allowing average QBs to rack up 100+ ratings and expect to shut anyone down. Not to mention that we're kind of boring and predictable right now, and not much fun to watch.

I don't expect anyone to be harder on how the Pats' have played (and have been coached) so far than BB. I still think we have the best HC in football, by far. But I would feel much better if we had an experienced OC and a DC in whom I had confidence.

We will get better, without question. Will it be good enough? That's a different question. It's still too early to tell. We have the talent to be good enough, but that may not be sufficient.

NewYorkJets1993 said:

Belichick got out-coached this past weekend.

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Saying BB got outcoached is like saying Tom Brady got outplayed. Yes their is truth to it, but their is more than 1 culprit.

mayoclinic said:

Andy,

First, for me personally, IBBIT. For me, Bill Walsh and Bill Belichick are the only 2 NFL coaches I've seen who truly deserve the "genius" label so often applied. They stand apart for their innovative schemes (offense for Walsh, defense for Belchick), HC ability, game management, personnel management, general manager capability, and ability to sustain it over the long haul. Bill Parcells is probably the only other guy around who can even make a claim to being able to excel at all those things.

That's not to say BB isn't fallible. Some of the most exceptional people I've ever worked with are prone to ego and judgment issues, and I'm sure BB would be the first to admit that he's made some mistakes. That's fine. He's made fewer than most, and more than enough brilliant moves to make up for it.

As far as I look at it, we ended the season with legitimate SB contenders in 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006 and 2007. The 2002 and 2005 teams had major flaws. 2008 might well have been a contender but for TB's injury, though I question whether our porous secondary would have held up in the postseason. With 4 SB appearances and 3 wins, that's far better than anyone else can claim.

My biggest concern right now is that I believe that we have the talent to legitimately compete this year, but I don't believe that the style we are playing will allow us to be competitive if we continue the way we have started. It's more than just being rusty on offense and young/injured on defense. We just can't throw the ball 50 times a game and expect opposing defenses not to adjust. We can't just play a soft defensive scheme allowing average QBs to rack up 100+ ratings and expect to shut anyone down. Not to mention that we're kind of boring and predictable right now, and not much fun to watch.

I don't expect anyone to be harder on how the Pats' have played (and have been coached) so far than BB. I still think we have the best HC in football, by far. But I would feel much better if we had an experienced OC and a DC in whom I had confidence.

We will get better, without question. Will it be good enough? That's a different question. It's still too early to tell. We have the talent to be good enough, but that may not be sufficient.

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The big question is whether Tom Brady can shake off the rust fast
enough for the offense to become dominant. The Patriots play three
good teams in the next month. Will the offense be in sync?

Jimke said:

The big question is whether Tom Brady can shake off the rust fast
enough for the offense to become dominant. The Patriots play three
good teams in the next month. Will the offense be in sync?

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Our next 5 games up to the break are against Atlanta, Baltimore, Denver (away), Tennessee and Tampa Bay (away). Atlanta, Denver and Tampa Bay have average defenses which should normally pose no problem for Tom Brady. Tennessee has a lot of defensive talent, but has been struggling since Jim Schwartz left for Detroit. Certainly if all they do is rush their 4 down linemen the way they did against Pittsburgh, they won't be able to get enough pressure on TB. Their secondary, while good, isn't good enough to shut him down.

Baltimore is obviously the most potent defensive team out of the next 5, but they have not been dominant so far this season. Their secondary is average (actually well below average, but Ed Reed elevates it).

I think there's a decent chance we can go into the break 6-2, which is what I was looking for at the beginning of the season. If we can do that, get our offense on track, bring along our defense, and get Mayo back healthy, we'll be in decent shape. Nothing's a given at this point, but I think that is well within the realm of possibility. Even with how poorly we played against the Jets, we were still not out of the game, and that was without Wes Welker.

How could we continue trusting BB when we didn't trust him on 07 SB?

I still trust BB...He makes the right decision on and off the field more often than not. He has been hurt by a couple of lousy drafts and maybe moving a bit too slow in replacing his aging defense.

mgteich said:

I BELIEVE

Belichick is deserving of our trust.

Belichick was outcoached last weekend.

The offense would be better off with a better OC, and certainly one that doesn't use the same no-huddle formation for the entire game, using wristbands for everyone and whiteboards for communication.

We'll know a lot more about this season's patriots by the time the bye comes around.
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I'm not sure whether you want us to give Belichick a pass on this past week and even the season since we have certainly done better than any other team since Belichick arrived.

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No. I want people to recognize that every team plays bad games, every unit struggles at times, every team has flaws week in and week out. And with BB in control the fans on this board should be far, far, far less quick to post comments implying they have figured out what BB is wrong about, and refrain from damning the season over one game.

As far as your comments, applied to this:
1) I think BB knows better than you how to hire an OC, and what his team needs.
2) I think that BB knows better than you whether signalling plays on a white board when the crowd is too loud to hear, is best.
3) I have a hard time distinguishing between good or bad coaching and good or bad execution in a one game sample.

Those are the kind of comments that I am talking about. If Wade Philips was our coach and we assessed what he did wrong, I dont doubt that we could have a pretty good insight to how he could do a better job, becuase he is a poor coach. But these type of posts happen whenever anything bad happens. All of a sudden since their was a bad result, people jump to the conclusion their idea would have worked better. What was your idea for communication? What evidence or history do you have that it would work better. To just throw out criticism with either no idea what should be done differently or with the arrogant idea that the poster knows more than BB is ridiculous to me.
I guess my point is that those who have criticized BB have turned out to be wrong time and again. Why not be a little slower to tell everyone you know more than BB? Thats what I mean.

Deus Irae said:

This organization, even under Belichick, has made mistakes. It's the nature of having humans in charge. The Duane Starks trade happened, and the O'Connell draft pick happened, and they are not the only failed moves by this team under BB. Any objective look at this offseason has to look at the turnover, tumult and maneuvers, and look at the first two games of the season, and concede that it's entirely possible that mistakes have been made.

As for



Some questions/issues brought up by people during the past months

Loss of McDaniels
Loss of Pioli
Questionable Cassel/Vrabel trade
Questionable Seymour trade
Questionable Burgess trade
Passing on top flight LT prospect in round 1 of draft
Passing on all the top linebackers in rounds 1 & 2 of the draft
Trading of Hobbs for low level picks that could have been gotten in other ways
Failure to maintain a fullback
Questionable decision not to give Brady a lot more time in the preseason games
Apparent over-reliance upon the health of one defensive player
Questionable game plan v. Jets on both sides of the ball

Anyone who thinks that such a long list of questions/issues should leave no room for doubt, and should be ignored in favor of "In Bill We Trust" is kidding himself. No human being is beyond legitimate questioning, especially when the list of questions/issues is so long. Having a reservoir of confidence based upon past performance is not the same thing as blindly following, nor should it be.

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Where am I saying he is incapable of making mistakes?
You have listed many decision that BB has made.
I am saying that he has proven that his decision making is excellent, and that isnt even debatable because of the success.
The success of the franchise is the sum total of BBs decisions.

You are correct that there are many decisions that are yet to be proven right or wrong. It appears that many fans mistakenly set the bar at 100% needing to be good decisions. I'm not smart enough to put a number on it, but in a competitive position where 31 other teams are fighting for the same result, and where every game day call is counter by an opponents decision design to defeat it, the 'perfect score' in decision making is a lot closer to just over 50/50 than it is to 100%. Perhaps that's the issue. Fans expect perfection, and anything less than perfection creates criticism, not of the event or decision but of the overall team, concept and franchise.
In Bill We Trust does not mean blindly believe he is infallible (thats a weak argument that everyone knows was never attempted to be made) it means that more often than not he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

Again we are now arguing what wasnt said.
I say In BB We Trust means BB is reliable, the results have always been good, he deserves the benefit of the doubt that one bad game wont ruin the season.
You say it means he is infallible. You know better.

BradyFTW! said:

AndyJohnson made an appeal to authority, stating that if Belichick believes something, then it is correct. I pointed out that that's a basic logical fallacy. You said that appeals to authority are fine because Belichick knows more than any of us do. I granted that that was the case, but explained why an appeal to authority is still a basic logical fallacy. All that my post said was that "It's correct because Belichick was behind it"--the premise that Andy based this entire thread on--is not a valid argument. .

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Did you even read what I wrote?
Where did I 'appeal to authority? I made a statement.
That statement did not say because BB did it is correct, not even close.
It said that based upon the track record the position that the sum total of his decisions will work out well is more logical than that 2 weeks into a season we have seen in one game why that trend and history is suddenly reverse.

The logical fallacy is taking 9 years worth of evidence and dismissing them over 3 hours last Sunday.

maverick4 said:

There's no question Belichick is one of, if not the best, ever at coaching.

However, many here including the OP make it sound like the coordinators have no power/autonomy, when that is clearly not the case.

A criticism of an offense or defense, while indirectly can be a criticism of Belichick, is more likely to be directed to a coordinator, who is in charge of that unit, and who Belichick delegates much work and decision-making to.

It's not as simplistic as the OP makes it out to be. It's possible to drink the kool aid, trust Belichick's skill and history, and still be critical of the team.

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It absolutely is possible to be critical and trust.
But that isnt what is happening. What is happening is that a fan base (or a vocal part of it) is expousing opinion that there are critical inherent flaws in the franchise, the system, the strategy and the philosophy that has proven to be among the most successful in NFL history.
Brady is getting ripped for his play in the 22nd game after 21 straight wins. I don't care if people say he played like crap. THAT is an assessment. But to openly post doubt that he will ever be effective, or to post as if you understand what is going on inside his head is ludicrous.
I guess what I am saying is assessing what happened on the field is one thing.
But when THEN projecting it to what it will lead to for the rest of the season needs to include being tempered by a history lesson, which is: we have had bigger problems than this, and look at what the results have been.
You are either optimistic or pessimistic, and I personally think its foolish to be pessimistic about this team based on the track record. As soon as the naysayers get one right and our results turn poor, I will start considering that approach. Until then it feels kind of disrespectful and unappreciative to see a fan base that appears to get angry whenever anyone takes an optimistic approach toward an organization that has as successful through more adversity than this (we lost ONE game) and had the tremendous results it has. It just seems like there is a great competition for the I told you so award for the demise of the franchise, and I dont understand fans doing that.

Deus Irae said:

This organization, even under Belichick, has made mistakes. It's the nature of having humans in charge. The Duane Starks trade happened, and the O'Connell draft pick happened, and they are not the only failed moves by this team under BB. Any objective look at this offseason has to look at the turnover, tumult and maneuvers, and look at the first two games of the season, and concede that it's entirely possible that mistakes have been made.

Anyone who thinks that such a long list of questions/issues should leave no room for doubt, and should be ignored in favor of "In Bill We Trust" is kidding himself. No human being is beyond legitimate questioning, especially when the list of questions/issues is so long. Having a reservoir of confidence based upon past performance is not the same thing as blindly following, nor should it be.

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IBBWT is based on having a resevoir of confidence. It's not blindly following, that's closer to what JETS fans are exhibiting right now because they're going up against a 40 year history of being snookered into believing this is the year when it never has been.

Lots of people continued to expound on questions and concerns in the wake of the 2002 season, after BB traded their binky to a division rival and he went to the pro bowl while we missed the playoffs. Then came 2003 when he cut bait including another revered binky (mine ) and started out 2-2 including a humiliating 31-0 loss to that same division rival(in a game where Bledsoe's replacement threw 4 picks despite not having any ACL repair or rusty mechanics issues...) while placing his shiny new FA OLB on IR after week 2. Somehow though despite evidence of turnover, tumult and maneuvers sufficient to support the contention that mistakes had been and were likely being made, they managed to string together 15 in a row on the way to Lombardi #2 (in a bizarre game where nobody could score a point until just before halftime when suddenly neither team could stop the other from scoring points...).

I think far more problems with this team exist in the minds of members of this board than ever exist in the bowels of Gillette. Fanatics are by nature torn between unrealistic expectations and the need to say I told you so when they aren't met (or even when they are if not in the way they proposed it should be). That dichotomy, combined with a lot of agenda driven opinions fueled by arrogance, ignorance or just the old standby testosterone driven ego doesn't make for terribly intelligent discourse.

This board is polarized as a result. We can't rationally look at or discuss things critically because of all the mindless criticism that unleashes. And we can't support this team because of all the anti homer backlash that unleashes. There is no middle of the road or opportunity for developing concensus here anymore. This is board warfare and all sides are dug in. People suddenly care more about supporting their own posting principles and opinions than they actually do about supporting or rationally analyzing this team.

I hear lots of arguments that start out with the premise: what else are we supposed to do here...this is a message board :blahblah: (implying that they all exist merely as venues to argue and outlets for frustration). Similar to Felger's sports talk radio rationale (happy is boring). But this is a Patriots fans message board Ian intended to establish as a community of what he claimed were the best fans on earth. On that basis this place is becomming an EPIC FAIL. People used to come here to follow the latest news, interact with folks with similar interest in the team, talk about football and team issues and believe it or not sometimes learn something simply by lurking and reading some fairly intelligent posters who perhaps knew a little more than them about X's and O's or a whole lot more than most about the salary cap... Now they come here to spar and jab and spew insults at each other or the players or the team...or to crash the server while adding their 2 cents to the latest eposide of an ego driven show that premiered back in 2006, patsfans pissing match meltdown.

IBBWT is based on having a resevoir of confidence. It's not blindly following, that's closer to what JETS fans are exhibiting right now because they're going up against a 40 year history of being snookered into believing this is the year when it never has been.

Lots of people continued to expound on questions and concerns in the wake of the 2002 season, after BB traded their binky to a division rival and he went to the pro bowl while we missed the playoffs. Then came 2003 when he cut bait including another revered binky (mine ) and started out 2-2 including a humiliating 31-0 loss to that same division rival(in a game where Bledsoe's replacement threw 4 picks despite not having any ACL repair or rusty mechanics issues...) while placing his shiny new FA OLB on IR after week 2. Somehow though despite evidence of turnover, tumult and maneuvers sufficient to support the contention that mistakes had been and were likely being made, they managed to string together 15 in a row on the way to Lombardi #2 (in a bizarre game where nobody could score a point until just before halftime when suddenly neither team could stop the other from scoring points...).

I think far more problems with this team exist in the minds of members of this board than ever exist in the bowels of Gillette. Fanatics are by nature torn between unrealistic expectations and the need to say I told you so when they aren't met (or even when they are if not in the way they proposed it should be). That dichotomy, combined with a lot of agenda driven opinions fueled by arrogance, ignorance or just the old standby testosterone driven ego doesn't make for terribly intelligent discourse.

This board is polarized as a result. We can't rationally look at or discuss things critically because of all the mindless criticism that unleashes. And we can't support this team because of all the anti homer backlash that unleashes. There is no middle of the road or opportunity for developing concensus here anymore. This is board warfare and all sides are dug in. People suddenly care more about supporting their own posting principles and opinions than they actually do about supporting or rationally analyzing this team.

I hear lots of arguments that start out with the premise: what else are we supposed to do here...this is a message board (implying that they all exist merely as venues to argue and outlets for frustration). Similar to Felger's sports talk radio rationale (happy is boring). But this is a Patriots fans message board Ian intended to establish as a community of what he claimed were the best fans on earth. On that basis this place is becomming an EPIC FAIL. People used to come here to follow the latest news, interact with folks with similar interest in the team, talk about football and team issues and believe it or not sometimes learn something simply by lurking and reading some fairly intelligent posters who perhaps knew a little more than them about X's and O's or a whole lot more than most about the salary cap... Now they come here to spar and jab and spew insults at each other or the players or the team...or to crash the server while adding their 2 cents to the latest eposide of an ego driven show that premiered back in 2006, patsfans pissing match meltdown.

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Excellent Post, Well said :agree:

NEPatriot said:

How could we continue trusting BB when we didn't trust him on 07 SB?

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Please clarify because I can't seem to figure out who "we" is.

fair catch fryar said:

Please clarify because I can't seem to figure out who "we" is.

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He's got a tapeworm.

AndyJohnson said:

It has somehow become vogue to consider fans who have confidence in BB blind, ignorant, unthinking homers. While those that question him, doubt him, and expect the worst, are simply being realists.
Consider this:
In the last 8 years"
1 time we lacked talent to compete (2002)
1 time we lost our GOAT QB
In the other 6 seasons with everything else that got in the way, with all of the criticisms of scheme, play calling, coordinators, drafting, etc, etc there were 6 other seasons
5 were at least to the AFFC (4 to the Sb, and 3 SB wins)
1 was a divisional round loss in the year we tried to 3peat when Bruschi had a stroke

Given that we do not lack talent, as in 2002, and Brady is at QB, history says 5/6th of the time we advance at least to the AFCC with a great shot at winning it, and a great shot at winning the next one, and 1/6th of the time, we only advance to the divisional round.

Explain to me again why believing in BB is the unthinking (Koolaid slurping) approach and doubting him is the well thought out reasoned one.

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Good post. Brady had a tough game on Sunday but it won't get much worse than that. We won't face a more aggressive defense the rest of the year. He had his trial by fire and we will be ready next time. Maybe I am crazy but I am glad this happened so early in the year. The offenses timing was totally off. It can only get better. Where were the screens? I expect the Jets shot most of their wad in this game and we will be much better next time.

Some young recievers will have to step up and we already know that Edelman can answer the bell. Our defense will only get better as the young guys mature. Losing Sey hurt us but what we have left isn't all that bad. It will take a little time for this team to gel with all the new faces but I am confident it will happen. Bring on the Falcons!