Dowling compared to McCourty

Potstickas said:

Arrington came in and stabilized the secondary when Butler and Wilhite was getting abused.

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Arrington improved tremendously over the coarse of the season.... he's very coachable. Even though Butler was often in good position and had good coverage, he has zero ball skills and had a very hard time stopping the receiver after the catch was made. When Arrington first came in it was obvious that his job was to keep the receiver in front of him and make the tackle. At first, he gave receivers a huge cushion, but as his conifidence grew that cushion became smaller and smaller. By December, Arrington was a decent CB. The kid is a keeper.

FredFromDartmouth said:

Ha. Not. The evidence is that the taller CBs have trouble the small fast guys. Rod Woodson was one exception but in general the gazelles do best on the outside.

Another line of evidence is Dowling's coach whom Gresh / Zo (?) recently interviewed; they asked him if Dowling could play the slot and the coach said Ras-I was better suited to the outside.

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Guess what, all players have trouble with small fast guys. Even small fast guys have trouble against the opposition.

Ras I coach said that because he's sustained a good amount of injuires in college and doesnt have great recovery speed.

OK, I like tall corners. However, the analysis makes little sense.

Are we really moving to TALL corners? Is that what McCourty is at 5" 10"? He seems the norm. Our other corners were Arrington at 5" 10", Butler at 5'10" and Wilhite.

let's look back. Ty Law was 5' 11". Otis Smith was 5' 11". Asante Samule was 5" 10".

The reality is that Bodden was an exception, and BTW wasn't a draftee. Dowling is a exceptionly tall defensive back for the patriots.

If Dowling is a change in philosphy from the failed philosophy of drafting corners like McCourty, then I don't like the change.


QUOTE=Uncle Rico;2544076]Reiss touched on this a bit today, how the Pats have been getting bigger at CB, a change in their philosophy from the Pioli days.

Changing face of Pats at corner - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

From a BB quote after Day 2:[/QUOTE]

I've never bought into the idea that the Patriots preferred smaller corners to begin with. I always assumed they preferred guys with elite quickness and change-of-direction skills, and those just tend to come in smaller packages. Put Butler's athletic measurables in a guy who stands 6'1" and you think BB would say "nah, too tall?"

The trick with Dowling is that we don't know those numbers -- or whether he's a long-term CB or S -- so it's hard to judge how he fits past tendencies.

I just want to add that at this time last year, everyone thought McCourtey was a special teamer only...just saying.

only the delusional

Almost everyone had McCourty as a late first or early second round draft choice. When we drafted him in the first, almost all of us expected him to be at least our nickel or at worst dime back.

lostjumper said:

I just want to add that at this time last year, everyone thought McCourtey was a special teamer only...just saying.

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lostjumper said:

I just want to add that at this time last year, everyone thought McCourtey was a special teamer only...just saying.

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It's true that few saw much in McCourty before the draft. Afterwards, however, is a much different story. In just about every measurable he was among the top in the draft... he just came from a small school. Many considered him a 4 down player, and would becomd a solid corner. It wouldn't have taken much effort to research that using just this board. Why post if you don't really know what you're talking about?

patchick said:

I've never bought into the idea that the Patriots preferred smaller corners to begin with. I always assumed they preferred guys with elite quickness and change-of-direction skills, and those just tend to come in smaller packages. Put Butler's athletic measurables in a guy who stands 6'1" and you think BB would say "nah, too tall?"

The trick with Dowling is that we don't know those numbers -- or whether he's a long-term CB or S -- so it's hard to judge how he fits past tendencies.

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From his pro day: 4.37 40, 6.85 three-cone, 38 inch vertical, and 10'8 broad jump. Exceptional numbers at nearly 6'2 and 200 pounds. I'm excited to see how he performs for us.

If Dowling is our big-receiver specialist, does that mean the days of the RCB/LCB strict distinction are over?

Fencer said:

If Dowling is our big-receiver specialist, does that mean the days of the RCB/LCB strict distinction are over?

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Quite possibly but I like the look of this depth chart.

1. McCourty
2. Bodden
3. Dowling
4. Arrington
5. Butler

If they can interchange roles and on players by position then that's excellent. I'd really like to see them get physical and abuse receivers. I'd love to see McCourty smack Wallace right in the mouth, cop a 15 yarder and set the tone for it being his field.

I'm assuming BB is working from the backfield first because he's accumulating some darn good defensive backs that includes some young, talented and aggressive safeties.

Fencer said:

If Dowling is our big-receiver specialist, does that mean the days of the RCB/LCB strict distinction are over?

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That's a good point Fencer, and a great question. Personally, I am guessing 'no,' but that's just my opinion of course.

I think I am staying with the thought that Belichick won't fix what isn't broke, and since McC is so adept already, if Dowling can indeed cover bigger WR's then it'll be just another bonus. They'll both be helping tremendously no matter who they are covering (hopefully). Therefore, I don't see the immediate need at changing sides etc.

Regardless, it'll be an interesting thing to consider, and there's always the possibility of course. You very well may be on to something there.

FredFromDartmouth said:

I have heard some talk that Ras-I is going to be the left-side equivilent of McCourty as if they were similar players but I don't think that is the case at all. They seem quite different. I don't think that Ras-I has the coverage skills that McCourty does but is rather a tall rangy guy for the outside. I do not think he will be effective against small quick receivers in the slot but rather his value be against tall receivers on the outside. McCourty seems to be able to cover either type but I am not sure Ras-I will be able to.

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I am not buying Dowling as a CB quite yet. IMO he is going to play a hybrid Safety sliding down to the slot upon occasion. Bodden is your starter. Arrington is your true nickle slot CB first up.

Everybody of my Cousins have to take a deep breath and think. We do not have a true Free Safety which is 50% of the reason we were 31st in passing yards against and those yards were not on the outside but up the middle. This in-turn caused your last in the NFL getting off the field on third down.

Aaron Williams of Texas was considered fro that same unique position. He got Drafted one spot after Dowling. Dowling might have the better ball skills. Buffalo mat use Williams as a CB right now because they have to, but if Whitner goes they will use Williams as a Safety that slides to the coverage side as well.

Think of Eugene Wilson. His best years as a pro where when he played Safety as a rookie here. He was a CB at Illinois. He was also smaller than Dowling.

You have a 6'1"+ 200lb CB who is a superb tackler, is smart and has make up speed and has ball skills. You have Chung, Merriweather, and Sanders as well as Page, Brown and Barrett. They are all in the box Safeties except maybe back up Sanders who is not a great tackler. Please pick out your Free Agent? There is not one. They thought Merriweather, but his coverage skills, on the field responsibility discipline and anticipation are lacking.

I would be thoroughly shocked if we do not trade one, if not two of our five Strong Safeties.

A wild card #1 might be Arrington at FS.

By the way, look at Page in 2008 with the Chiefs. That should have been a Pro Bowl year. He is better than we think, hence the BB re-sign and McGowan was expendable.

Not really about Dowling but........Here is another interesting stat. Barrett is being shown as issued #36 on the Pats roster. Hmmm?

How about Pats wild card #2. I was one of the posters who wanted Donte Moch this Draft. He was 6'1" and 236lbs with 4.4 speed. Josh Barrett obviously can play in space and no one knew about Moch. He is 6'2" and 225lbs with 4.35 speed. Remember the Arrington experiment where BB lined him up as DE in pass rush downs? It seemed to work decent when he tried it. Way too much agility for a 320lb OT. We might just have our pass rusher. If we already have him and he was just resigned could BB use Barrett on the edge? No question he can drop back. Can BB teach him how to rush off that edge? It would seem like the type of innovative position invention BB might concoct in his laboratory. Robert Mathis is a pretty good all down DE for the Colts and great pass rusher. He is 6'2" and only 245lbs. Now Barrett is not on the Safety roster.

It is not easy to make an outside rusher. You would think Guyton would be good rushing the passer with his speed. He is bigger and faster than Dumerville.

DW Toys

BOTTOM LINE
I agree that we can trade Meriweather. We now have Chung, Sanders, Dowling, Barrett or Page.

CORNER
We've spent years trying to find and develop corners. We found secure. None are moving to safety. As you say we have starters Bodden and McCourty, and nickel Arrington.
We have Butler and Wilhite competing for a backup spot. Alternatively Butler or Wilhite could be the nickel with Arrington being the backup corner and the dime back. The only decision is whether we cut one of the five in the last cut.

FREE SAFETY (2)
As you say, we are set with Sanders and Dowling. Sanders will continue a solid backup when Dowling is ready. I wouldn't be surprised to see Sanders extended.

SAFETY: STRONG, BACKUP and SPECIAL TEAMS (6)
We have Chung and Meriweather (in his contract year).
We also have backup Barrett and special teamer Brown.
Finally, we have Page and Ventrone (in their contract years).

Clearly, we can trade Meriweather if we are so inclined. Chung, Sanders, Dowling and Page or Barrett are more than sufficient (plus Brown and Lockett competing for special team positions).

DW Toys said:

I am not buying Dowling as a CB quite yet. IMO he is going to play a hybrid Safety sliding down to the slot upon occasion. Bodden is your starter. Arrington is your true nickle slot CB first up.

Everybody of my Cousins have to take a deep breath and think. We do not have a true Free Safety which is 50% of the reason we were 31st in passing yards against and those yards were not on the outside but up the middle. This in-turn caused your last in the NFL getting off the field on third down.

Aaron Williams of Texas was considered fro that same unique position. He got Drafted one spot after Dowling. Dowling might have the better ball skills. Buffalo mat use Williams as a CB right now because they have to, but if Whitner goes they will use Williams as a Safety that slides to the coverage side as well.

Think of Eugene Wilson. His best years as a pro where when he played Safety as a rookie here. He was a CB at Illinois. He was also smaller than Dowling.

You have a 6'1"+ 200lb CB who is a superb tackler, is smart and has make up speed and has ball skills. You have Chung, Merriweather, and Sanders as well as Page, Brown and Barrett. They are all in the box Safeties except maybe back up Sanders who is not a great tackler. Please pick out your Free Agent? There is not one. They thought Merriweather, but his coverage skills, on the field responsibility discipline and anticipation are lacking.

I would be thoroughly shocked if we do not trade one, if not two of our five Strong Safeties.

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DW Toys said:

I am not buying Dowling as a CB quite yet. IMO he is going to play a hybrid Safety sliding down to the slot upon occasion. Bodden is your starter. Arrington is your true nickle slot CB first up.

Everybody of my Cousins have to take a deep breath and think. We do not have a true Free Safety which is 50% of the reason we were 31st in passing yards against and those yards were not on the outside but up the middle. This in-turn caused your last in the NFL getting off the field on third down.

Aaron Williams of Texas was considered fro that same unique position. He got Drafted one spot after Dowling. Dowling might have the better ball skills. Buffalo mat use Williams as a CB right now because they have to, but if Whitner goes they will use Williams as a Safety that slides to the coverage side as well.

Think of Eugene Wilson. His best years as a pro where when he played Safety as a rookie here. He was a CB at Illinois. He was also smaller than Dowling.

You have a 6'1"+ 200lb CB who is a superb tackler, is smart and has make up speed and has ball skills. You have Chung, Merriweather, and Sanders as well as Page, Brown and Barrett. They are all in the box Safeties except maybe back up Sanders who is not a great tackler. Please pick out your Free Agent? There is not one. They thought Merriweather, but his coverage skills, on the field responsibility discipline and anticipation are lacking.

I would be thoroughly shocked if we do not trade one, if not two of our five Strong Safeties.

A wild card #1 might be Arrington at FS.

By the way, look at Page in 2008 with the Chiefs. That should have been a Pro Bowl year. He is better than we think, hence the BB re-sign and McGowan was expendable.

Not really about Dowling but........Here is another interesting stat. Barrett is being shown as issued #36 on the Pats roster. Hmmm?

How about Pats wild card #2. I was one of the posters who wanted Donte Moch this Draft. He was 6'1" and 236lbs with 4.4 speed. Josh Barrett obviously can play in space and no one knew about Moch. He is 6'2" and 225lbs with 4.35 speed. Remember the Arrington experiment where BB lined him up as DE in pass rush downs? It seemed to work decent when he tried it. Way too much agility for a 320lb OT. We might just have our pass rusher. If we already have him and he was just resigned could BB use Barrett on the edge? No question he can drop back. Can BB teach him how to rush off that edge? It would seem like the type of innovative position invention BB might concoct in his laboratory. Robert Mathis is a pretty good all down DE for the Colts and great pass rusher. He is 6'2" and only 245lbs. Now Barrett is not on the Safety roster.

It is not easy to make an outside rusher. You would think Guyton would be good rushing the passer with his speed. He is bigger and faster than Dumerville.

DW Toys

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Some very intriguing thoughts here. Nice to see that someone else noticed Barrett's numbers. Actually, all our "scrub" DBs put up some not-awful pre-draft numbers.

Here's the comparison (FWIW):

6002/219 - 4.34/40 - 1.49/10yd - 38.0v - 10'06"brd - 4.07/20s - 6.58/3cone - Peterson
6000/206 - 4.43/40 - 1.50/10yd - 38.0v - 10'08"brd - 4.08/20s - 6.97/3cone - Amukamara
6022/211 - 4.46/40 - 1.53/10yd - 36.0v - 10'03"brd - 4.06/20s - 6.93/3cone - Jimmy Smith
5117/204 - 4.56/40 - 1.57/10yd - 37.5v - 10'07"brd - 4.07/20s - 6.72/3cone - Aaron Williams

6016/223 - 4.34/40 - 1.50/10yd - 31.5v - 10'01"brd - 4.27/20s - 7.07/3cone - Barrett
5095/187 - 4.37/40 - 1.48/10yd - 36.5v - 10'08"brd - 4.20/20s - 6.74/3cone - Wheatley
5094/185 - 4.38/40 - 1.43/10yd - 33.5v - 09'11"brd - 4.41/20s - 7.17/3cone - Wilhite
5106/193 - 4.38/40 - 1.53/10yd - 36.0v - 10'06"brd - 4.07/20s - 6.70/3cone - McCourty
5103/183 - 4.41/40 - 1.46/10yd - 43.0v - 11'02"brd - 4.18/20s - 6.92/3cone - Butler
5086/179 - 4.41/40 - 1.53/10yd - 39.0v - 10'00"brd - 4.19/20s - 7.18/3cone - Tony Carter
6003/212 - 4.45/40 - 1.51/10yd - 36.0v - 10'02"brd - ............ - ............... - Lockett
6013/198 - 4.46/40 - 1.47/10yd - 38.0v - 10'08"brd - 4.26/20s - 6.85/3cone - Dowling
5105/195 - 4.47/40 - 1.53/10yd - 35.0v - 09'03"brd - 4.33/20s - 7.06/3cone - Meriweather
5095/204 - 4.47/40 - 1.48/10yd - 40.0v - 10'06"brd - 4.39/20s - 6.90/3cone - Malcolm Wms.
5081/198 - 4.48/40 - 1.55/10yd - 35.5v - 09'09"brd - 4.27/20s - 6.78/3cone - Ventrone
5112/212 - 4.49/40 - 1.49/10yd - 34.0v - 09'11"brd - 4.24/20s - 7.11/3cone - Chung
6005/210 - 4.49/40 - 1.56/10yd - 35.0v - 10'03"brd - 4.10/20s - 6.58/3cone - Sergio Brown
5103/188 - 4.51/40 - 1.56/10yd - 41.0v - 10'03"brd - 4.26/20s - 7.20/3cone - Thad Turner
6003/239 - 4.63/40 - 1.59/10yd - 38.0v - 10'07"brd - 4.14/20s - 6.70/3cone - Page
5106/214 - 4.65/40 - ............ - 36.0v - 09'04"brd - 4.02/20s - 7.12/3cone - Sanders

Obviously, numbers don't translate into skill (or Butler might be a two-time unanimous All-Pro by now), but still .... Compare Sergio Brown's overall numbers to the top five CBs taken in this draft.