I still think that the 2011 draft sucked

thodoks · Mar 11, 2012

captain stone said:
Do you have any counter-points to offer, or just the predictable name-calling to which so many of the Belichick bum-kissers resort?

You take the internet pretty seriously, huh guy? FredFromDartmouth took the criticism in stride and seems like a pretty well-adjusted human. He's here, you know, just to pass the time and entertain himself. Like me.

But you? I think you actually think you know more than Bill Belichick, or that at minimum, the front office would be doing themselves a favor if only they would heed your advice. Have you ever considered shooting the fine folks at Gillette your resume, and maybe a few thousand of your finest message board posts? Be sure to address the envelope as follows:

Bill Belichick
1 Patriot Place
Foxborough, Massachusetts 02035
C/O: Captain Stone from the internet

Do keep us posted on the response.

manxman2601 · Mar 11, 2012

DW Toys said:
I agree with every example you stated. I don't agree with some of the picks that I might have preferred, but the evaluation to date is spot on. It could change but I doubt it. By the year 2015, only two of these choices will still be on the roster. Someone mark this.
The point to the Koolaiders is that the Pats Drafts are mediocre. One year was pretty darned good 2010. 2011, 2009, 2008,2007, 2006!!! etc. (please point out that they were spectacular and why) pretty much rotted. Every Team retains one or two at 17% success NFL Draft rate. Don't say one year Mayo, one year Ghost. Two sticking to the roster as long term starters or even valued backups up to pro bowl consideration is normal. JAGS that are replaceable are not counted. Three or more from every year is deemed a successful Draft class under those criteria.

That is why I say BB is a better trader or selects better FAs most of the time, than this nonsensical Draft down trading. He always come up with three or four FAs or Trades that are better than his Draft picks.
Anyone deny his picks of Carter, Anderson, Waters, Moore, even to a lesser extent James Ihedigbo, Warren and of late Ellis were better than his 2011 Draft class by far? Ocho is still...who knows and forget about Albert but it was a look-see. That is a pretty easy comparison to what he does best.

I believe in the Mallet and Cannon picks because they were "WTF, why not" picks. They had very high grades and were a gamble. Still are. You can throw Dowling in that mix with his college injuries. So of all the choices last year,..... and I am positive BB wasn't even in the building and went home for diner for the 7th Malcomb Whatsisname pick that was done by maybe one of Krafts grandkids who were playing in the war room or the office custodian, three were damaged goods going through the door, one was taken about right and the others were way overdrafted. Nobody can argue with Captain Stone on that. It's a valid point. The Draft is decent if Dowling, Cannon and Mallet work out. Solder is fine. The others could get cut tomorrow and they will not affect this roster and could be replaced with as good of players in the 2012 Draft. Anyone disagree?

The point is Stones argument and evaluation is solid. It's really not debatable for a few years. I give 2011 a big INC.
DW Toys

Are those the teams that don't win their division every year and go to a SB or three? Retaining draft picks on your roster is meaningless if they don't give you a very good team. That BB is willing to cut or trade players that don't meat muster is not an indication that he's a bad drafter by comparison, it just means that he finds ways to build a winning team that doesn't require clinging on to draft picks that haven't worked out.

Two thirds of the Patriot starters are Patriot draft picks. So a SB team and perennial playoff team is built almost entirely around BB draft picks. I can't see what else you want from his drafting.

Sciz · Mar 11, 2012

thodoks said:
You take the internet pretty seriously, huh guy? FredFromDartmouth took the criticism in stride and seems like a pretty well-adjusted human. He's here, you know, just to pass the time and entertain himself. Like me.

But you? I think you actually think you know more than Bill Belichick, or that at minimum, the front office would be doing themselves a favor if only they would heed your advice. Have you ever considered shooting the fine folks at Gillette your resume, and maybe a few thousand of your finest message board posts? Be sure to address the envelope as follows:

Bill Belichick
1 Patriot Place
Foxborough, Massachusetts 02035
C/O: Captain Stone from the internet

Do keep us posted on the response.

Why would he send the letter to the guy he plans to replace?

DW Toys · Mar 11, 2012

manxman2601 said:
Are those the teams that don't win their division every year and go to a SB or three? Retaining draft picks on your roster is meaningless if they don't give you a very good team. That BB is willing to cut or trade players that don't meat muster is not an indication that he's a bad drafter by comparison, it just means that he finds ways to build a winning team that doesn't require clinging on to draft picks that haven't worked out.

Two thirds of the Patriot starters are Patriot draft picks. So a SB team and perennial playoff team is built almost entirely around BB draft picks. I can't see what else you want from his drafting.

One half of the starting D is Draft choices and the other half FAs and neither has worked well this past year.

Arguably the two best players other than Brady on the offense this year were Welker and Waters who were.....trades and FAs (obviously Gronk was superb) Is it fair to say the best 4 offensive players were split, draft choices versus trade or FA pick ups?

I will say this yet again....17%! That is 1.19 player per year per average in a three year time frame as a determining factor if that choice is a many year starter, a pro bowl or near pro bowl value or even valued back up or special teams player.

So the actual average for most teams is two. A specific bad class by multiple teams drags it down to 17%. That is why 2010 was good and 2010 mediocre (I will leave it as INC)

I don't understand this statement though:
That BB is willing to cut or trade players that don't meat muster is not an indication that he's a bad drafter by comparison

I would say certainly if the Draft Choice is not contending for a roster spot, he was not a good choice. But that is my opinion.
DW Toys

manxman2601 · Mar 11, 2012

DW Toys said:
I don't understand this statement though:
That BB is willing to cut or trade players that don't meat muster is not an indication that he's a bad drafter by comparison

I would say certainly if the Draft Choice is not contending for a roster spot, he was not a good choice. But that is my opinion.
DW Toys

My point is that whilst all teams will be responsible for draft pick mediocrity, BB cuts his failures loose whilst other teams hold onto them thus making Patriot picks look worse because they've been cut, something often used as a metric to determine draft success.

Snake Eyes · Mar 11, 2012

thodoks said:
You take the internet pretty seriously, huh guy? FredFromDartmouth took the criticism in stride and seems like a pretty well-adjusted human. He's here, you know, just to pass the time and entertain himself. Like me.

But you? I think you actually think you know more than Bill Belichick, or that at minimum, the front office would be doing themselves a favor if only they would heed your advice. Have you ever considered shooting the fine folks at Gillette your resume, and maybe a few thousand of your finest message board posts? Be sure to address the envelope as follows:

Bill Belichick
1 Patriot Place
Foxborough, Massachusetts 02035
C/O: Captain Stone from the internet

Do keep us posted on the response.

Sorry but that's a weak argument, an appeal to authority: Belichick is right because he's Belichick, should I presume that a product is better because '7 out of 10 doctors agree...'?

Ivan · Mar 11, 2012

thodoks said:
You take the internet pretty seriously, huh guy? FredFromDartmouth took the criticism in stride and seems like a pretty well-adjusted human. He's here, you know, just to pass the time and entertain himself. Like me.

Actually Fred acknowledged that he posts things to try and irritate people, there is nothing "well adjusted" about people who spend their time trying to push other people's buttons.

AzPatsFan · Mar 11, 2012

DW Toys said:
Have to mostly agree. His trading down stuff have been a mixed bag. He loves to coach up these fourth and fifth rounders. I am sorry, wouldn't an actual first round talent be easier on the mental anguish with less to teach? Is the theory if we draft four fifth rounders, one will come to the surface we hope? It has not worked. 2010 was an apparition for the choices and how they have turned out for the Pats in general over the last five years. 17% is the success rate of a total NFL draft class. But the higher the choice, the more likely over that 17% success rate.

It think the Pats Draft Day team outsmarts itself. "BB, Let's trade down....Ol' so and so will be there.!....Opps he's not!...Let's trade out to some cool guys in the fourth round and get another for the next year so we can trade out there as well."

No one will admit in the organization that they made some boo boos.... but some Koolaiders here will say that was well planned. Not buying.

They are mediocre, right in the middle, not the worst and certainly not the best as far as talent evaluators in the NFL Draft over that last five or six years although they have had the potential with the higher picks that they had, to have a better Team. Who can deny this?

It's like BB trading with the Eagles every year. Perhaps "Trading down is intriguing and let's see how it comes out" is the battle cry. He does not give a rats annal pore whether the "experts" think he was wise or not Draft day, not certainly us as fans. He has success and that taints this evaluation process, but if you look at it, BB is better at picking up experienced player trades and FAs who have made more of a difference to his yearly success. His Drafts are....mediocre.

The Experts are amused by his trades and therefor figure he is a Draft day genius. I don't think so. He has missed on more talent that could have helped today as Fred suggests, when he rolls the dice. I don't know if I agree with all your better Raven players, but there are some for sure he could have gotten.
DW Toys

Are you one of those Fans who thinks Belichick is a dolt, and you would do so much better? Of course, he misses on occasion, just fewer than others.

The final proof of the pudding that he is the overall best, is that he has completely rebuilt the roster since the SB club of 2007 got old, and went "Over the Hill". And he has never had a losing or "rebuilding" season, at 5-11, merely some not quite as good as a Superbowl favorite would want.

Still for the last two years he produced HFA teams, who would and did rate as Superbowl clubs and one actually was. Plus he is well positioned to compete for the Lombardi again this season.

As far as I care, the Pass Rush problem was solved last season with 40 sacks/season, which is typical number for Belichick Superbowl clubs that play "read and react" and sound fundamental football. I expect Carter and Anderson have several more years of ability too.

Although Varreen has done nothing over a full rookie season, I did see him flash in a late game appearance. Belichick takes talent when and where he finds it, and I still think he found a Faulk successor in Vareen, and a fulll time RB in Ridley.

More importantly he MAY have obtained a Brady successor given a few years of learning experience on the bench, before having to prove it, sink or swim, as a rookie.

Meanwhile I KNOW he found a Light successor in Nate Solder, and a Probowl Right tackle in Seabass a few years ago, who has ALREADY gone to a Probowl..

Any draft that finds players that can play at those two key positions, can celebrate getting anyone else who can play too, in that draft.

FredFromDartmouth · Mar 11, 2012

Ivan said:
Actually Fred acknowledged that he posts things to try and irritate people, there is nothing "well adjusted" about people who spend their time trying to push other people's buttons.

I said tweak not irritate people. And I aways do it in a respectful manner and my targets are just people who take this football thing too seriously. Flame wars have no place in these discussions; we are all (well most of us) Patriots fans and should not insult each other. Gentlemanly discussions are the order of the day.

AzPatsFan · Mar 11, 2012

captain stone said:
Without reading any of the other 46 posts, many of which I'm sure did nothing but kiss Bill's ass,
this is what's wrong with last year's draft (and almost every other one since 2004): over-drafting,
by neglecting value in favor of locking on a target at the expense of the current situation.

Example #1: Trading 28 to NO instead of 33, thereby removing the chance to draft Mo Wilkerson or Cam Heyward. Zero teams from 29-32 were going to draft Mark Ingram, so there was no reason whatsoever to deal that pick. The obviously better move would've been to wait until the next day and create an overnight market for 33. At worst, we settle for the same offer Bill accepted for 28.

Example #2: Glas-IR Dowling at 33. Due to his injury-riddled senior season, he was a late 2nd-round value who could've been likely available at 56. Instead, Bill ignores Jabaal Sheard & Brooks Reed, or maybe DaQuan Bowers, better values at a position of greater need. IR wasn't even the best DB available at 33 - that would've been Aaron Williams.

Example #3: Shane Vereen at 56. A mid-late 3rd-round value who could've been likely available at the pick used for Steven Ridley. CBs Glas-IR or Brandon Harris would've been a better value here; so too would've been WR Torrey Smith & OLB Justin Houston. Vereen wasn't even the best RB available at 56 - that would've been Mikel Leshore.

Example #4: Stevan Ridley at 73. A 5th-round value who was over-drafted by 2 full rounds. Although he ended with a more productive season than Vereen, he still fumbled his way into Bill's doghouse by the POs. Bill played a lousy hand of poker with this one. OLB Sam Acho & DE Allen Bailey, among others, would've been better uses of this pick.

Example #5: Lee Smith at 159. A UDFA value at a position of little need, he didn't even make the 53 out of TC. OLB Chris Carter, DE Pernell McPhee, C Scott Fusco & XBack Charles Clay all would've had better chances to contribute than Smith.

Example #6: Markell Carter at 194. I'm nitpicking here, because at least he fills a position of need, but Tyler Sash might've been the BPA regardless of position, and he would've spared us the suffering of watching Sergio, Barrett & Slater mis-play the Safety position. There's no way he could've performed any worse than those 3 butchers.

Example #7: Mal Williams at 219. Perhaps the worst 7th-round draft choice in the history of professional football, this non-priority UDFA talent would've been lucky to receive an invite to any camp at all.
What makes him such a horrible pick, besides the utter lack of a future with a team supposedly championship-driven, is the fact that Bill slapped us all in the face by refusing to do the right thing, which would've been to take Mark Herzlich instead.

I suppose I could also mention trading 92 & 125 to weird Uncle Al (as a going-away present?) for 219 last year & 48 this year, but I'm in a generous mood today.

Apropos of nothing at all, There is a type of Fan who really beleives he is god's gift to drafting and that Belichck is an utter Dolt, as both a talent selector, GM and coach.

jsull87 · Mar 11, 2012

DW Toys said:
One half of the starting D is Draft choices and the other half FAs and neither has worked well this past year.

Arguably the two best players other than Brady on the offense this year were Welker and Waters who were.....trades and FAs (obviously Gronk was superb) Is it fair to say the best 4 offensive players were split, draft choices versus trade or FA pick ups?

I will say this yet again....17%! That is 1.19 player per year per average in a three year time frame as a determining factor if that choice is a many year starter, a pro bowl or near pro bowl value or even valued back up or special teams player.

So the actual average for most teams is two. A specific bad class by multiple teams drags it down to 17%. That is why 2010 was good and 2010 mediocre (I will leave it as INC)

I don't understand this statement though:
That BB is willing to cut or trade players that don't meat muster is not an indication that he's a bad drafter by comparison

I would say certainly if the Draft Choice is not contending for a roster spot, he was not a good choice. But that is my opinion.
DW Toys

Starting D: Wilfork, Deadrick, Love, Ninko, Spikes, Mayo, Anderson, Chung, McCourty, Ras-i , Arrington. 7 draft choices, 2 UDFA's and 2 FA's. That makes 63% draft choices starting D. (Say what you want but Ras-i was the starting CB and beat out Arrington)

Starting O: Light, Mankins, Connoly/koppen, Waters, Vollmer, Hernandez, Gronk, Welker, Branch, Brady, Benny/Ridley/Woody (depending on package).

8-9 Draft choices, 0-1 UDFA, 1 FA and 1 traded 2nd rounder WR. Soooo 72-81% Drafted starters.

I personally think you are nit picking to suit your argument, highlighted by the "is it fair to say 50% of our key starters on O were FA's?". No that's not fair because our OT's (all 3) were key starters... and they were drafted, our All Pro LG was a key and he was drafted not to mention Gronk, Hern and Brady. Did Waters and Welker play great absolutely but that's 2 out of PB FA's and 6 PB draft picks in the Offense. On D we had 1 PB FA and 3 PB draft Picks the exact same ratio.

FredFromDartmouth · Mar 11, 2012

AzPatsFan said:
Apropos of nothing at all, There is a type of Fan who really beleives he is god's gift to drafting and that Belichck is an utter Dolt, as both a talent selector, GM and coach.

Dan Synder and the late Al Davis were draft dolts. BB is middle of the pack. He is the undisputed master at collecting draft picks but is fairly pedestrian using them. He hits some (Gronk) and misses some (Butler and Price and Cunningham and ...)..

Sciz · Mar 12, 2012

FredFromDartmouth said:
Dan Synder and the late Al Davis were draft dolts. BB is middle of the pack. He is the undisputed master at collecting draft picks but is fairly pedestrian using them. He hits some (Gronk) and misses some (Butler and Price and Cunningham and ...)..

Name every single current drafter that's better than Belichick.

FredFromDartmouth · Mar 12, 2012

Sciz said:
Name every single current drafter that's better than Belichick.

You can start with the Ravens in the 2011 draft; BB takes Vereen while the Raven take Torrey Smith. Then the Patriots take TE Lee Smith while the Ravens take Pernell McPhee. Steelers also; the Steelers select Mike Wallace while BB takes Taylor Price.

Of course these teams have their misses also. I am not sure that the these teams are head and shoulders above the Patriots but the Patriots are not clearly better either.

NinjaZX6R · Mar 12, 2012

FredFromDartmouth said:
You can start with the Ravens in the 2011 draft; BB takes Vereen while the Raven take Torrey Smith. Then the Patriots take TE Lee Smith while the Ravens take Pernell McPhee. Steelers also; the Steelers select Mike Wallace while BB takes Taylor Price.

Of course these teams have their misses also. I am not sure that the these teams are head and shoulders above the Patriots but the Patriots are not clearly better either.

I can also play this game too.

2010.

Ravens take Sergio Kindle, Pats take Gronk.

Ravens take Ed ****son, few picks later, we take Aaron Hernandez.

captain stone · Mar 12, 2012

Ron Sellers said:
These kind of draft hindsight posts about how a team should have drafted this guy and not that guy, after the benefit of seeing how productive every player both drafted and undrafted are absolutely 100% useless. Why? Because anybody can easily go through the same exact exercise for all 32 NFL teams, each and every year to "prove" that team's draft sucked.
In other words, the hindsight 'shoulda' drafted this guy' conversations that far too many fans love to bring up do not prove anything - except that some fans like to complain. At least DW Toys brought up some references for comparisons to other teams. But this type of argument is used way too often (not just by Pats fans, but by fans of all 32 NFL teams), and it is utterly useless.

What I wrote is not one-year-later-hindsight, or one-month-later, or one-week-later.
What I wrote is exactly how I felt at the exact moment that those picks were made.

Now, is anybody else honest enough to admit how they felt during the draft when Bill ignored the Pass-Rusher position until the 6th round, ignored the DE position completely, chose an injury-riddled CB 33rd overall, and 2 RBs in the top-75?

captain stone · Mar 12, 2012

jsull87 said:
interesting in your response citing your opposition "name calling" you yourself dismiss them as belichick bum kissers.

please see counter points in previous 6 pages in which you neglected to read.

Those who have dared questioned Bill's genius have been called much worse.

Deus Irae · Mar 12, 2012

This is one of the silliest threads posted on Patsfans.com in quite a while.

mtbpats · Mar 12, 2012

So I decided to list all the patriots pick next to all the Steelers, just to show how they compare against each other. I think that sometimes as Patriots fans we only focus on our teams mistakes and other teams successes, ie Tate - Wallace.

2011
Round Name College
1 Nate Solder Colorado Pass
2 Ras-I Dowling Virginia
2 Shane Vereen Cal
3 Stevan Ridley LSU
3 Ryan Mallet Arkansas
5 Marcus Cannon TCU
5 Lee Smith Marshall Fail
6 Markell Carter Central Arkansas
7 Malcolm Williams Marshall

2011
Round Name College
1 Cameron Heyward Ohio State
2 Marcus Gilbert Florida
3 Curtis Brown Texas
4 Cortez Allen Citadel
5 Chris Carter Fresno State
7 Baron Batch Texas Tech

2010
Round Name College
1 Devin McCourty Rutgers Pass
2 Rob Gronkowski Arizona Pass
2 Jermaine Cunningham Florida Fail
2 Brandon Spikes Florida Pass
3 Taylor Price Ohio Fail
4 Aaron Hernandez Florida Pass
5 Zoltan Mesko Michigan Pass
6 Ted Larsen NC State Fail
7 Thomas Welch Vanderbilt Fail
7 Brandon DeaderickAlabama Pass
7 Kade Weston Georgia Fail
7 Zac Robinson Oklahoma State Fail

6 Players

2010
Rnd Name College
1 Maurkice Pouncey Florida Pass
2 Jason Worilds Virginia Tech Fail
3 Emmanuel Sanders SMU Pass
4 Thaddeus Gibson Ohio State Fail
5 Chris Scott Tennessee
5 Crezdon Butler Clemson
5 Stevenson Sylvester Utah
6 Jonathan Dwyer Georgia Tech
6 Antonio Brown Central Michigan Pass
7 Doug Worthington Ohio State

3+ Players. Sorry its incomplete

2009
Rnd Name College
2 Patrick Chung Oregon Pass
2 Ron Brace Boston College Fail??
2 Darius Butler Connecticut Fail
2 Sebastian Vollmer Houston Pass
3 Brandon Tate North Carolina Fail
3 Tyrone McKenzie South Florida Fail
4 Rich Ohrnberger Penn State Fail
5 George Bussey Louisville Fail
6 Jake Ingram Hawaii Fail
6 Myron Pryor Kentucky Fail??
7 Julian Edelman Kent State Pass?? Utility Player
7 Darryl Richard Georgia Tech Fail

2-3 Players

2009
Rnd Name College
1 Ziggy Hood Missouri Pass
3 Kraig Urbik Wisconsin Fail
3 Mike Wallace Mississippi Pass
3 Keenan Lewis Oregon State Pass?? 3rd cb
5 Joe Burnett Central Florida Fail
5 Frank Summers UNLV Fail
6 Ra'Shon Harris Oregon Fail
7 A.Q. Shipley Penn State Fail
7 David Johnson Arkansas State Pass?? fb/te

2-4 Players

2008
Rnd Name College
1 Jerod Mayo Tennessee Pass
2 Terrence Wheatley Colorado Fail
3 Shawn Crable Michigan Fail
3 Kevin O'Connell San Diego State Fail
4 Jonathan Wilhite Auburn Fail
5 Matt Slater UCLA Pass
6 Bo Ruud Nebraska Fail

2 Players

2008
Rnd Name College
1 Rashard Mendenhall Illinois Pass
2 Limas Sweed Texas Fail
3 Bruce Davis UCLA Fail
4 Tony Hills Texas Fail
5 Dennis Dixon Oregon Pass?? Backup QB
6 Mike Humpal Iowa Fail
6 Ryan Mundy West Virginia Pass?? Backup saftey

1-3 Players

I probably made more than a few mistakes, so suggest any corrections if you would like.

Sorry about the formatting I had everything in rows, but all the indents are gone when I post?

Defsoul · Mar 12, 2012

Deus Irae said:
This is one of the silliest threads posted on Patsfans.com in quite a while.

Is this really a surprise if you consider who started this thread and The Usual Suspects who joined him?

I still think that the 2011 draft sucked

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