Faith

TBradyOwnsYou said:

Are you intentionally obtuse or are you really just a moron? Do you not see the Oxford definition? It agrees with me, but not with the others.

Hmm, how can we resolve this discrepancy? Let's try the scientific way:
Grammatical rules we learned as children, word formation.
Root word: Theist
definition: belief in a god or gods
prefix: a
meaning: without
Therefore atheist = without belief in a god or gods

Now let's try your method, the religious method.
I want something to be true.
Evidence points to me being wrong.
Ignore that evidence.
Find something to back me up.
If all else fails, just repeat it as often as possible until everyone else gives up trying to converse with me.

Yaaaaay. You've pointed out exactly why I don't want a person who uses faith to be in charge of anything, because that indoctrinated method of ignoring logic prevents you from seeing reality, even if it doesn't relate to the thing you're using your faith for (ie: god).

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"What did you call me?" (Reacting to being called "obtuse") "Get him out of here!!!"

TBradyOwnsYou said:

3. False. Faith provides zero knowledge by definition, and it is the religious dogma, not faith, that attempts to (but fails) to provide a "meaning" to life. However, as there have been countless religions throughout history, I'd like to avoid delving down that road and rather stick to the topic of faith itself.

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Faith may fail to deliver meaning to your life but in trying to make your POV universal you are playing the same game as those fundamentalist of different religions who project their perceptions as fact for everyone....

TBradyOwnsYou said:

Atheism is simply the lack of belief. It is the blank slate. An Antitheist is someone who denies theism. Whilst they are often portrayed as one in the same, they are not. (example: Asexuality is not a rejection of sexuality, it is a lack of sexuality.)

Think of it like this: each religion is a television channel. Atheism is a powered off TV.

If I can't deny something before I hear it, I also cannot know it. If you'd like to choose a different word to use other than atheism for this so as to not confuse yourself, I'd be happy to use whatever word you want, but saying that one cannot be born with a disbelief does not in any way whatsoever validate the claim that one can be born WITH a belief, no matter what word you choose to call it.

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Humans builds models of the world. Atheism is a faith as much as any other faith. You seem to confuse religion and belief.

patsfan13 said:

Faith may fail to deliver meaning to your life but in trying to make your POV universal you are playing the same game as those fundamentalist of different religions who project their perceptions as fact for everyone....

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Knowledge and "meaning" are not one in the same. Knowledge is transferable because it is true regardless of perception. Faith has no proof or evidence for it, if it did, it would stop being faith and would then become knowledge.

Perception of "meaning" is irrelevant to the topic.

patsfan13 said:

Humans builds models of the world. Atheism is a faith as much as any other faith. You seem to confuse religion and belief.

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Faith = belief without evidence

Atheism = lack of belief in a deity(s)

They are not one in the same.

The original topic: Why does "faith" receive special consideration in America? Is it political correctness?

One individual pointed out that my example of a child's faith in the Tooth Fairy's existence is admirable. I am curious as to, not only why this is, but why this admiration apparently persists into adulthood.

TBradyOwnsYou said:

Faith = belief without evidence

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However it can be based on experience. Evidence of your senses/nervous system.

The original topic: Why does "faith" receive special consideration in America? Is it political correctness?

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Well the people who founded along with the vast majority of the people who lived here had a belief in a deity, most were Christians of one denomination or another.

The belief was the basis of the Natural Law as embedded in the Declaration of Independence, 'men are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights' (hope I got the quote correct).

This was a critical feature of our republic, since one got their rights from God then the government couldn't take them away, and if they tried you have the right to revolt and overthrow said government. IOW in America people give powers to government, government does not give rights to people.

In most other political system the government 'grants' rights to the governed and of course can take those rights away, the road to tyranny is already paved.

No God, No Faith, No Inalienable rights, no freedom.

patsfan13 said:

However it can be based on experience. Evidence of your senses/nervous system.

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Only if you ignore neuroscience.

Well the people who founded along with the vast majority of the people who lived here had a belief in a deity, most were Christians of one denomination or another.

The belief was the basis of the Natural Law as embedded in the Declaration of Independence, 'men are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights' (hope I got the quote correct).

This was a critical feature of our republic, since one got their rights from God then the government couldn't take them away, and if they tried you have the right to revolt and overthrow said government. IOW in America people give powers to government, government does not give rights to people.

In most other political system the government 'grants' rights to the governed and of course can take those rights away, the road to tyranny is already paved.

No God, No Faith, No Inalienable rights, no freedom.

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This smells like post hoc.

If we gain rights from our creator, why didn't blacks or women have those same rights? Faith didn't seem to help them at all.

TBradyOwnsYou said:

One individual pointed out that my example of a child's faith in the Tooth Fairy's existence is admirable. I am curious as to, not only why this is, but why this admiration apparently persists into adulthood.

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everlong said:

I guess it's because you're looking at it as a bad thing. I personally do admire a child who believes in the tooth fairy because there's an innocence there that's sweet and commendable. A person who has a true strong faith and uses that faith to overcome obstacles in their life is admirable. You would call them naive and say that it's a crutch. Much like the other poster wants everybody to have faith like his you want everybody to just say it's all BS because that's what you believe. If faith brings somebody comfort or strength who are you or I to tell them they are wrong or how to live their life? .

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I did explain it to you from my point of view you just didn't like the answer. For whatever reason you've decided that you need to point out to people of faith that they're idiots. I get it because I went through a period of my life where I was angry at the very notion of god (I'm not saying that's your deal). I've been to evilbible.com, I've watched the youtube videos from that group in Houston we talked about earlier in the thread debunking religion, etc. I went through something traumatic and it was a way of venting my anger. I met and talked to people of similar circumstances who made it through with a strong faith. Through talking to them I realized that a strong faith wasn't a bad thing. I still don't have one and probably never will and definitely won't be a Christian, Jew or Muslim at any point but I do believe in the afterlife as discussed through quantum physics and the theory that we are all connected. I don't ask anybody to believe as I do and only ask that people respect that and don't ask me to believe what they believe. The world would be a better place if everybody just approached faith that way.

everlong said:

I did explain it to you from my point of view you just didn't like the answer. For whatever reason you've decided that you need to point out to people of faith that they're idiots. I get it because I went through a period of my life where I was angry at the very notion of god (I'm not saying that's your deal). I've been to evilbible.com, I've watched the youtube videos from that group in Houston we talked about earlier in the thread debunking religion, etc. I went through something traumatic and it was a way of venting my anger. I met and talked to people of similar circumstances who made it through with a strong faith. Through talking to them I realized that a strong faith wasn't a bad thing. I still don't have one and probably never will and definitely won't be a Christian, Jew or Muslim at any point but I do believe in the afterlife as discussed through quantum physics and the theory that we are all connected. I don't ask anybody to believe as I do and only ask that people respect that and don't ask me to believe what they believe. The world would be a better place if everybody just approached faith that way.

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There are groups of people whose faith tells them that if they blow themselves up in a crowded bazaar, they will go to paradise. Is this admirable because of their strong faith?

We had faith in our banking system... that didn't end well.

We had faith in our intelligence community prior to invading Iraq...

Many people still have faith that a Nigerian Prince is going to send them millions of dollars...

When we open the door to respecting faith, we open the door for bad things to happen in its name.

I'd like to have faith that the President (any of them) wouldn't use drones to murder American citizens on American soil... but reason tells me to be skeptical.

TBradyOwnsYou said:

There are groups of people whose faith tells them that if they blow themselves up in a crowded bazaar, they will go to paradise. Is this admirable because of their strong faith?

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There's people with no faith who go to the top of a water tower and open fire as well. Using an extreme to condemn the norm isn't well thought out.

TBradyOwnsYou said:

We had faith in our banking system... that didn't end well.

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I didn't but that has nothing to do with our current debate. By your logic I had faith my car would start but it didn't so thus all cars suck and are inherently evil.

TBradyOwnsYou said:

We had faith in our intelligence community prior to invading Iraq...

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Politics not religious faith.

TBradyOwnsYou said:

Many people still have faith that a Nigerian Prince is going to send them millions of dollars...

When we open the door to respecting faith, we open the door for bad things to happen in its name.

I'd like to have faith that the President (any of them) wouldn't use drones to murder American citizens on American soil... but reason tells me to be skeptical.

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Hyperbole and completely off topic. As I said before you have your reasons to reject faith but I think your views on people of faith being morons are misguided and saying everything in faith leads to bad things is short sighted at best. You've gone completely off topic when you could argue your point not just with me but with two other posters.

everlong said:

There's people with no faith who go to the top of a water tower and open fire as well. Using an extreme to condemn the norm isn't well thought out.



I didn't but that has nothing to do with our current debate. By your logic I had faith my car would start but it didn't so thus all cars suck and are inherently evil.



Politics not religious faith.



Hyperbole and completely off topic. As I said before you have your reasons to reject faith but I think your views on people of faith being morons are misguided and saying everything in faith leads to bad things is short sighted at best. You've gone completely off topic when you could argue your point not just with me but with two other posters.

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Bold: The only reason that faith is confused with religion is because religion is impossible without it. I am not discussing religion. I am discussing faith.

Underline: I never mentioned evil. I was pointing out that basing decisions on unconfirmed belief (ie: faith) is bad. You likely take your car in once in a while to get serviced. We call this preventative maintainance and we do this because we know if we don't, our car will break down.

Red: It is CAUSED by faith. People do bad things for other reasons, sure, but people doing bad things because of faith is a rather large issue in the world today.

Green: Again, I am not discussing people "of faith" or any particular flavor of religion. I am discussing basing decisions on a lack of information.

I'll try again like this: My friend and I walk up to a bridge overlooking a river. He wants to jump. He has faith that there are no rocks underneath the water. I remain skeptical and choose to verify this information before jumping. He doesn't wait and jumps.

Does he die? Was he right?

It doesn't matter. It was (in my opinion) a poor decision because he chose to ignore reason and rely on faith.

I personally cannot see a scenario where making a decision based on faith instead of rational thought is a superior choice. If you can provide me with an instance I would love to hear it.

TBradyOwnsYou said:

I'll try gain like this: My friend and I walk up to a bridge overlooking a river. He wants to jump. He has faith that there are no rocks underneath the water. I remain skeptical and choose to verify this information before jumping. He doesn't wait and jumps.

Does he die? Was he right?

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It's a silly topic in that case and given where you posted it I find it hard to believe the original topic wasn't religion based.

Alternate scenario. Your friend waits. You tell him there's no rocks and he jumps. Was he right to do so? Does he die? How can he trust you? Isn't trusting anybody foolish?

There's a certain faith involved in every aspect of life. Would I rather have research to base every decision on? Of course but sometimes a leap of faith is involved. If you're playing a simple pick up game of basketball with people you don't know how can you be certain one of them isn't a crack head who will sweep your knee for kicks? Do you never play a pickup game?

Really it can get quite absurd and then you can get into intuition. I'm a very intuitive person and go on gut feel often. That's a form of faith mixed with experience.

Anyway I'm done with the topic.

TBradyOwnsYou said:

Only if you ignore neuroscience.

If we gain rights from our creator, why didn't blacks or women have those same rights? Faith didn't seem to help them at all.

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Of course in the case of slavery the states had to make the case that black people weren't fully human to deny people their "God Given" rights. This proved to be untenable over the long run. The statements in the Declaration made the movement towards rights for all people regardless of race the only outcome.

The situation with women (and the right to vote one presumes) was that the social norms were that women could have "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" without the right to vote due to their role in society as life givers and household maintainers who raised children. This at the time was seen to be a very valuable task.

If one leaves it to the state to be the arbiter of rights then the state can also take away rights if it chooses to do so, ie the path to tyranny.

TBradyOwnsYou said:

Knowledge and "meaning" are not one in the same. Knowledge is transferable because it is true regardless of perception. Faith has no proof or evidence for it, if it did, it would stop being faith and would then become knowledge.

Perception of "meaning" is irrelevant to the topic.

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Okay, please provide proof that George Washington was the first president.

TBradyOwnsYou said:

In the Age of Information, is there a compelling reason to assign any positive social value to having Faith? At this point is it little more than political correctness?

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Faith without facts is for fools.

The public is losing it's gullibility and religions will continue their downward spiral.

I think this a good thing.

Regards
DL

Attention: To the Greatest I AM,

When U chose to talk about the subject of 'Faith", there was and is only one person Jesus (God the SON), God the Father & God the Holy Spirit! The United one that passes the test of having the perfect faith.

I've hung out with pastors, elders deacons, so called prophets, etc. yet, none can match the standard the bbile gives us about GOD the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit!

So, it's pretty much unfair to compare anyone else in the bible or even living today. To the immortal one, the Ancient of Days, The Lord God Almighty, King of Israel,etc.

It's like u need to understand for all UR knowledge how great our creator really is and our inferior we really are. If, not UR are going to be in for rude awakening b/c I know we should serve our Lord God with Fear & Trembling for only
a fool wouldn't! In Our Precious Lord ************ Blood & Mercy, love,
injrseuslovingmemory

Faith..........

When U chose to talk about the subject of "Faith", there was and is only one person Jesus (God the SON). Who passes the test of having the perfect faith.

I've hung out with pastors, elders, deacons, so called prophets, etc. Yet, none can match the standard the bible gives us about GOD the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit!

So, it's pretty much unfair to compare anyone else in the bible or even living today. To the immortal one, the Ancient of Days, The Lord God Almighty, King of Israel, etc.

It's like u need to understand for all UR knowledge how great our creator really is and how inferior we really are. If, not UR are going to be in for rude awakening b/c I know we should serve our Lord God with Fear & Trembling for only a fool wouldn't! In Our Precious Lord ************ Blood & Mercy, Love!
injrseuslovingmemory[/QUOTE]

When U chose to talk about the subject of 'Faith", there was and is only one GOD, Jesus (God the SON), God the Father & God the Holy Spirit! The United one that passes the test of having the perfect faith.

I've hung out with pastors, elders deacons, so called prophets, etc. yet, none can match the standard the bbile gives us about GOD the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit!

So, it's pretty much unfair to compare anyone else in the bible or even living today. To the immortal one, the Ancient of Days, The Lord God Almighty, King of Israel,etc.

It's like u need to understand for all UR knowledge how great our creator really is and our inferior we really are. If, not UR are going to be in for rude awakening b/c I know we should serve our Lord God with Fear & Trembling for only
a fool wouldn't! In Our Precious Lord ************ Blood & Mercy, love,
injrseuslovingmemory[/QUOTE]