Our Seven Man Secondary and Dowling (and the importance of ST players on a roster)

Well if you have 2 players who can perform well on ST's, but one has more upside as a positional player then they would get the roster spot.

If both players have little upside as positional players but one excels on ST's they get the spot.

This equation changes every year and thus people have to as BB says 'create a spot on the roster' for themselves by using their opportunities to create a role. If they only do 1 thing they'd better do it very well.

signbabybrady said:

Bradymanny,
you point to the D and claim we lost superbowls due to STers having to play on the D. So I would point to the 96 SB where we may have lost the game due to our STs only stand out being hurt and Desmond Howard running right past the starter filling the role.

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That's a very fair point.

I think it's just all about balance and value. ST play is certainly part of the equation, but in an ideal world, we'd have more 4 down players on this squad. I think this draft works towards that, for sure.

Here are the 2 points I get from this thread.

1. There is more raw talent in the Pats secondary than I can remember in a long time. Guys like Cole are not world beaters by any means. You do not want them to be starting for you. However they are guys who are worthy to be on an NFL roster, the fact that its very likely that he won't be able to crack this secondary group is a GOOD sign.

2. TEN is the minimum number of secondary players that BB is going to carry. In my mind we have 12 guys who are NFL quality players. The 10 healthiest will make the squad, and since we are making wild guesses in May, here is how I would LIKE it to come out.

CB's- Dennard, Talib, Arrington, Dowling, Ryan

S's - AWilson, McCourty, TWilson, Harmon, Ebner

I'm hoping that Tavon's continued progression and Ebner's development, along with the addition of Harmon makes Gregory and his $2.5MM cap hit redundant. Plan B would be to keep Gregory and continue Ebner's development from the PS (assuming BB only keeps 10 DB's)

Re: Our Seven Man Secondary and Dowling (and the importance of ST players on a roster

I'm okay with Slater and Ebner but I really, really want to see Cole and Koutivedes gone.

Slater and Ebner are ST phenoms, but Cole and Koutivedes provide so little depth at their critical positions. WR and S are a little more flexible this year.

Re: Our Seven Man Secondary and Dowling (and the importance of ST players on a roster

While I agree with you comments, I believe that cutting Gregory saves about $0.5M, not $2.5M. Gregory won't be cut because of his cap hit.

patfanken said:

Here are the 2 points I get from this thread.

1. There is more raw talent in the Pats secondary than I can remember in a long time. Guys like Cole are not world beaters by any means. You do not want them to be starting for you. However they are guys who are worthy to be on an NFL roster, the fact that its very likely that he won't be able to crack this secondary group is a GOOD sign.

2. TEN is the minimum number of secondary players that BB is going to carry. In my mind we have 12 guys who are NFL quality players. The 10 healthiest will make the squad, and since we are making wild guesses in May, here is how I would LIKE it to come out.

CB's- Dennard, Talib, Arrington, Dowling, Ryan

S's - AWilson, McCourty, TWilson, Harmon, Ebner

I'm hoping that Tavon's continued progression and Ebner's development, along with the addition of Harmon makes Gregory and his $2.5MM cap hit redundant. Plan B would be to keep Gregory and continue Ebner's development from the PS (assuming BB only keeps 10 DB's)

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Re: Our Seven Man Secondary and Dowling (and the importance of ST players on a roster

You make the normal presumptions of health (Dowling) and that old veterans work out (A Wilson). While these are reasonable presumptions, I am glad that we have the Plan B players in Cole and Gregory already on the roster. Obviously, they also provide injury protection at CB and S respectively.

Personally, I would keep STer Cole instead of STer Ebner, but that is personal cholce.

patfanken said:

Here are the 2 points I get from this thread.

1. There is more raw talent in the Pats secondary than I can remember in a long time. Guys like Cole are not world beaters by any means. You do not want them to be starting for you. However they are guys who are worthy to be on an NFL roster, the fact that its very likely that he won't be able to crack this secondary group is a GOOD sign.

2. TEN is the minimum number of secondary players that BB is going to carry. In my mind we have 12 guys who are NFL quality players. The 10 healthiest will make the squad, and since we are making wild guesses in May, here is how I would LIKE it to come out.

CB's- Dennard, Talib, Arrington, Dowling, Ryan

S's - AWilson, McCourty, TWilson, Harmon, Ebner

I'm hoping that Tavon's continued progression and Ebner's development, along with the addition of Harmon makes Gregory and his $2.5MM cap hit redundant. Plan B would be to keep Gregory and continue Ebner's development from the PS (assuming BB only keeps 10 DB's)

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Re: Our Seven Man Secondary and Dowling (and the importance of ST players on a roster

patfanken said:

continue Ebner's development from the PS

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Ebner is not eligible to be on the practice squad.

Re: Our Seven Man Secondary and Dowling (and the importance of ST players on a roster

mgteich said:

What is apparently spreading to some of the fan base is that Special Teams is an afterthought and that a positional 5th corner, 4th S, 5th safety, 5th LB, or 6th LB is somehow more valuable than a top gunner. I'm sure that there are coaches that think that way. Belichick does not seem to be one of them.

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He's routinely dedicated ~7 spots to players who play almost exclusively STs. Last year:

Gostkowski
Mesko
Aiken

Koutouvides
Ebner
Slater
White
Cole*
Rivera

*Did play almost 50% of his snaps on defense

Re: Our Seven Man Secondary and Dowling (and the importance of ST players on a roster

RI Patriots fan said:

Dowling isn't going anywhere this year.

If he plays, he costs the team $1.45M this year.

If he gets cut, he costs the team $1.53M this year plus the cost of a new player this year plus an additional $589K in dead money cost next year.

So that isn't going to happen.


» Over the Cap- New England Patriots 2014 Salary Cap Page

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You're misreading that chart.

Cutting Dowling would mean that his signing bonus proration would stick on the cap, and his 2014 salary cap hit would become dead money on the 2014 cap, but his 2013 salary and 2014 salary would disappear.

Re: Our Seven Man Secondary and Dowling (and the importance of ST players on a roster

ctpatsfan77 said:

He's routinely dedicated ~7 spots to players who play almost exclusively STs. Last year:

Gostkowski
Mesko
Aiken

Koutouvides
Ebner
Slater
White
Cole*
Rivera

*Did play almost 50% of his snaps on defense

Click to expand...

That will change this year because BB has said so.....This is one of the ways that he is going to trim the fat.

Re: Our Seven Man Secondary and Dowling (and the importance of ST players on a roster

What happened to the days when you just put your best players on ST? Sure guys like Slater are great, but BB use to use starters on STs all the time. I remember Rodney, Johnson, etc. playing special teams regularly. I'd much rather use roster spots and guys who can play then wasting them on guys who can't but can make tackles a few times a game. With the bumped up kicking line, you can just have your kicker crush one out of the back of the endzone every time. Then you're worried about about punts really. Seems outrageous to me.

Re: Our Seven Man Secondary and Dowling (and the importance of ST players on a roster

s3antana5757 said:

What happened to the days when you just put your best players on ST? Sure guys like Slater are great, but BB use to use starters on STs all the time. I remember Rodney, Johnson, etc. playing special teams regularly. I'd much rather use roster spots and guys who can play then wasting them on guys who can't but can make tackles a few times a game. With the bumped up kicking line, you can just have your kicker crush one out of the back of the endzone every time. Then you're worried about about punts really. Seems outrageous to me.

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Not to make a casual connection but when the Pats had guys like Vrabel, Bruschi, hell even Adalius Thomas, do you know what those guys were doing besides playing their natural position?

Re: Our Seven Man Secondary and Dowling (and the importance of ST players on a roster

VrabelJr said:

Logan Ryan is a CB and Special Teamer as is Harmon so things probably shake up like this:

CB: Talib, Dennard, Arrington, Dowling, Ryan(ST)
S: McCourty, Adrian Wilson, Tavon Wilson, Harmon, Ebner(ST)

I think Cole and Gregory lose out in camp but are a Dowling/Talib injury away from getting a phone call.

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If Dowling can stay healthy I don't see how he can't compete for dennard's roll.
He was good when he was on the field.

I think you are correct with the DB roster.

I would like to hear about Ebner's progress. He is a great athlete. But, time is not on his side.

Re: Our Seven Man Secondary and Dowling (and the importance of ST players on a roster

ctpatsfan77 said:

He's routinely dedicated ~7 spots to players who play almost exclusively STs. Last year:

Gostkowski
Mesko
Aiken

Koutouvides
Ebner
Slater
White
Cole*
Rivera

*Did play almost 50% of his snaps on defense

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Yes, but my only point is ask yourself: is this ideal, and is this what BB wants?

We didn't really have anyone pushing those guys like Cole, Rivera or White for spots. We didn't have comparably cheap labor that was good enough on D to even warrant consideration bumping one of the aforementioned ST guys out. Again, part of that is b/c not all the picks have panned out as planned.

Go back to 2004 team (probably the best roster we've had) and find me 7 pure ST-only players on that squad. There wasn't, because the team was so flush with talent at LB & DB that it couldn't be, and its depth was perfectly equipped to perform on ST. Was that a bad thing? (That team was stacked....Bruschi, Colvin, McGinest, Johnson, Phifer, Vrabel at LB - and DB was stacked to start the year before ravaged by injury.)

Ideally, White, Cole, Rivera, maybe Koutouvides are all pushed on ST duties by some of the incoming draftees who have higher upside as depth at defensive positions. This year, it might happen. We've already talked about Harmon & Ryan as good ST players, Collins played ST in college as well. And those 7th rounders, who have good upside, hopefully can factor in.

Re: Our Seven Man Secondary and Dowling (and the importance of ST players on a roster

I seem to recall last year reading Belichick's (IIRC) remarks on how continuity (referring to injuries) plays such a crucial role in secondary performance and the overall cohesion of the unit. It's hard not to notice the impressive amount of continuity in the defensive backfield from last season to this year, which has me hopeful for an improved performance against the pass.

Additionally, I can't help but wonder if this philosophy helped to inspire the drafting of multiple DBs from Rutgers, who are known to have worked out with (and presumably been mentored in at least a small part by) Devin McCourty.

Re: Our Seven Man Secondary and Dowling (and the importance of ST players on a roster

Dowling has spent his first 2 seasons on IR. Please list any patriot contributor under Belichick who has been a contributor and who started his career with even ONE year on IR.

Stilla said:

If Dowling can stay healthy I don't see how he can't compete for dennard's roll.
He was good when he was on the field.

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Re: Our Seven Man Secondary and Dowling (and the importance of ST players on a roster

mgteich said:

Dowling has spent his first 2 seasons on IR. Please list any patriot contributor under Belichick who has been a contributor and who started his career with even ONE year on IR.

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Don't know about IR but IIRC Willie Mac spent a lot of time injured early in his career and was on the verge of being considered a bust.

Re: Our Seven Man Secondary and Dowling (and the importance of ST players on a roster

mgteich said:

Dowling has spent his first 2 seasons on IR. Please list any patriot contributor under Belichick who has been a contributor and who started his career with even ONE year on IR.

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Adrian Klemm started on a SB Champ.
This guy named Brady spent a year doing nothing, although not quite on IR.
Ben Watson spent his first year on IR and contributed.
Brandon Tate spend his 1st year on IR and contributed.
Ron Brace was IRd and contributed at one point.

Those are the ones that come to mind.

Re: Our Seven Man Secondary and Dowling (and the importance of ST players on a roster

Brady was definitely not on IR or anything like it. The rest of your list speaks for itself. Th only one that I would consider a solid contributor was Ben Watson who is still in the league contributing. The rest did contribute some, but not much.

AndyJohnson said:

Adrian Klemm started on a SB Champ.
This guy named Brady spent a year doing nothing, although not quite on IR.
Ben Watson spent his first year on IR and contributed.
Brandon Tate spend his 1st year on IR and contributed.
Ron Brace was IRd and contributed at one point.

Those are the ones that come to mind.

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Re: Our Seven Man Secondary and Dowling (and the importance of ST players on a roster

AndyJohnson said:

Adrian Klemm started on a SB Champ.
This guy named Brady spent a year doing nothing, although not quite on IR.
Ben Watson spent his first year on IR and contributed.
Brandon Tate spend his 1st year on IR and contributed.
Ron Brace was IRd and contributed at one point.

Those are the ones that come to mind.

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Notice how most are spent their 1st year, not first two like Ras-IR.
Anything he gives is a bonus, I think that hip injury in 2011 robbed him of his fluidity, he looked worse in 2012 than he did against the Dolphins in 2011.

Wish the guy was healthy, but it looks like it was a wasted pick on a guy with injury flags.