Offensive line...

Seels said:

Please justify this. Maybe one of the top 30. Definitely not one of the top 8. Arguably a top 5 LG / top 10 G, but that's about it.

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He might be going by the fact that the top 100 rated players in the league included Mankins again this year. He was 82. I don't know how many linemen made the listing, but it might be the basis for that number.

Our offensive line has been good the last couple of years. Unfortunately, each season has ended with a so-so performance in the final games, which leads to the common judgment of board members that our line needs serious overhaul/upgrading. It's called the serial position effect. Our best memories of a given subject are of the first impression and of the greatest recency.


Potential Improvements to the Line:

1. Mankins returning to 100%
2. Solder with an extra year's experience (probably got to full strength in weight room in prior year)
3. New potential back-up at tackle could lead to Cannon moving to right guard, which would slide Connolly to center and leave Wendell as a very good backup.
4. Nick McDonald entering fourth season, who gained by far his most experience in NFL in 2012 season (played in 12 games--only 4 before that) - adds depth to interior O-Line

Greatest concern:

1. Health of Vollmer - As far as we know, his back is perfectly fine. But his issues could flare up again. This stresses the importance of having a quality back-up tackle, because they have a likelihood of receiving significant playing time on this team.

Headcount for 53:

Ideally 9 (5 interior, 4 tackles). This is somewhat flexible if someone is on PUP and/or if there is versatility among back-ups to play tackle or guard.

8 OL's made the 100.

patriot lifer said:

He might be going by the fact that the top 100 rated players in the league included Mankins again this year. He was 82. I don't know how many linemen made the listing, but it might be the basis for that number.

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If you believe if these stats ,

Cold, Hard Football Facts.com: The Truth Hurts ,PATs OL was best in the

league last year! Twice as good statistically as 24 other teams. If
receivers can't get open why blame the Oline for not protecting Tommy
long enough, etc.

It is probably a lot easier to improve other Units of this team.
Improvements that will make a significant difference in the
bottom line this season.

If the receivers we drafted find a way to open up the field, our line will be great.
That's why our play book is hard to learn. The play book optimizes plays based on how much time tom feels he will have after the ball is snapped. Its expected that the receivers understand that time and adjust their route based upon what alignment the defense shows and what personnel is on the field.

The only way to play the hurry up offence the way NE does is to have this common understanding, understood by everyone in the offence.

mgteich said:

Mankins is one of top 8 OL's in the NFL

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Nope.

Joe Thomas
Ryan Clady
Jahri Evans
Carl Nicks
Duane Brown
Max Unger
Alex Mack
Ryan Kalil
Josh Sitton


That's 9 off the top of my head that are unquestionably better. The NFL top 100 is a complete joke.

????

I didn't state an opinion. nil announced on nfln that Mankins was one of the 8 OL's in the top 100. I am amused to think that you think that you know the list better than they do. After all, it will be several weeks until the whole list is revealed to the public.

tonyto3690 said:

Nope.

Joe Thomas
Ryan Clady
Jahri Evans
Carl Nicks
Duane Brown
Max Unger
Alex Mack
Ryan Kalil
Josh Sitton


That's 9 off the top of my head that are unquestionably better. The NFL top 100 is a complete joke.

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Galeb said:

Wendell was solid in the running game, but was somewhat of a liability in pass protection. Unless he improves, he is a JAG at best.

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Really???

Hopefully your 3rd post and moving forward are better.
He's no all star but we were very stout defending from the middle.

This bears repeating. We are one of the best OL's in the league.

We bring back ALL our starters. Our GameDay backups (Cannon and McDonald) have many starts and can be counted on.

We spend our time deciding whether both our solid 8th and 9th OL's will make the team (Svitek and Zusevics) or whether they are even higher on the depth chart.

Personally, I expect a veteran backup center/guard to be picked up for camp competition. We already have an UDFA that will enter Dante's Academy. We lost Thomas. In a prefect world McDonald would do as well.

And just BTW, our OL discussion would not be complete without mentioning that we have one of the very best blocking TE's in the NFL in Gronkowski.

JR4 said:

If you believe if these stats ,

Cold, Hard Football Facts.com: The Truth Hurts ,PATs OL was best in the

league last year! Twice as good statistically as 24 other teams. If
receivers can't get open why blame the Oline for not protecting Tommy
long enough, etc.

It is probably a lot easier to improve other Units of this team.
Improvements that will make a significant difference in the
bottom line this season.

Click to expand...

mgteich said:

????

I didn't state an opinion. nil announced on nfln that Mankins was one of the 8 OL's in the top 100. I am amused to think that you think that you know the list better than they do. After all, it will be several weeks until the whole list is revealed to the public.

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And like I said NFL top 100 is a complete joke and a terrible list. I'm pretty sure Tebow was in the 80s a couple years back and Polamalu also made the list this year which just goes to show how big a joke it really is.

I gave you a list of guys who are obviously better than Mankins.

Sorry, the fact you seriously lend that joke of a list ANY credit immediately disqualifies you.

Thinking that you know more about the quality of play than players currently in the league disqualifies you.

If you think that many folks here will consider your considerable expertise as being more valuable and reasonable that a poll of current players, you are likely to be incorrect.

tonyto3690 said:

And like I said NFL top 100 is a complete joke and a terrible list. I'm pretty sure Tebow was in the 80s a couple years back and Polamalu also made the list this year which just goes to show how big a joke it really is.

I gave you a list of guys who are obviously better than Mankins.

Sorry, the fact you seriously lend that joke of a list ANY credit immediately disqualifies you.

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mgteich said:

Thinking that you know more about the quality of play than players currently in the league disqualifies you.

If you think that many folks here will consider your considerable expertise as being more valuable and reasonable that a poll of current players, you are likely to be incorrect.

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News flash: A lot of NFL players are meatheads and/or complete idiots. I mean we see on a fairly routine basis players show that they don't understand the rules.

The list is a complete joke that goes by name/popularity/prestige alone. Ray Lewis was also on the list last year because he's an insanely popular player with a long history of being great, but he abso freaking lutely did not deserve to be on the list.

The list is a complete joke and if you actually knew anything about the players and looked at the list you'd see how terrible it is.

It wasn't the line, it was the fact that while Tom was back in the pocket no one else was getting open outside of Wes. He won't have that issue at all this season as we have the most options this year since Troy Brown, Deion Branch, David Givens and David Patten. Our offensive line carries to two best in the league and a rising star in Nate Solder. Dan Connolly is also very solid in his own right, and I like both Ryan Wendell and Marcus Cannon. Not only that, they can really push during the run plays. You add that, and we have the best offensive line coach in the NFL, uses great technique, schemes and a sturdy system with big, strong, smart and tough guys. It was the receivers, not the o-line, that Brady had to wait on in the post season.

Hopefully the rookies produce like everyone is thinking they will.

I do agree the WRs were hurting the offense in the game but the OL could improve, IMO. I'm also interested in Cannon's development.

I'm OK with where the pats are at OL.....the starting unit jsut as last year

solder
mankins
wendell
connolly
vollmer

then you have
cannon - you didn't notice he was out there in place of vollmer at times last year, and that's a good thing...he is starting quality at ROT
macdonald - another backup that doesn't kill you
svitek - he was out for a year but did a decent job starting for the falcons the year before
zusevics - I think this guy is the next in line of capable backups

then there's 4 rookies.......the only thing that bothers me at all is that there's not much in terms of qualified OG depth......but everything changes is cannon is being considered for that given the presence of svitek.......I think we're OK here

51Hits said:

Hopefully the rookies produce like everyone is thinking they will.

I do agree the WRs were hurting the offense in the game but the OL could improve, IMO. I'm also interested in Cannon's development.

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I too am very interested in how Cannon's development, and how he will be deployed.

It was only a few weeks ago that we were speculating that he would be the starting RT for the 2013 season, while Vollmer remained an unsigned free agent. I'm sure some fans thought back to the 2012 pre-season and how Cannon looked as if he was playing on ice, and were more than a bit concerned.

So what will Cannon's primary role be?
- Injury insurance as a backup to Vollmer, perhaps spelling him for playing time to give his back a rest and keep him fresh, with occasional time also at G and TE?
- Injury insurance as a backup G to Connolly and Mankins, leaving Svitek and Zusevics to compete as the backup swing T?
- Starting RG, which allows Wendell and Connolly to compete for the job as starting center, with the other the primary backup G/C?
- What is the trickle down effect of Cannon's role on the other offensive linemen: Nick McDonald, Svitek, Zusevics, and the four undrafted free agents?

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out, and should make for one of the best competitions in this year's training camp.

Galeb said:

Wendell was solid in the running game, but was somewhat of a liability in pass protection. Unless he improves, he is a JAG at best.

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Wendell is a really good center, as someone else said already Connolly is a better Center than guards and right now the only weakness is at RG. I would love to see cannon win that spot but don't believe that is how it will play out. Belichick has been adamant that Cannon is a tackle and there have been no signs to date that i am aware of that indicate a move inside.

tonyto3690 said:

And like I said NFL top 100 is a complete joke and a terrible list. I'm pretty sure Tebow was in the 80s a couple years back and Polamalu also made the list this year which just goes to show how big a joke it really is.

I gave you a list of guys who are obviously better than Mankins.

Sorry, the fact you seriously lend that joke of a list ANY credit immediately disqualifies you.

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The only guy on your list who is as good as Mankins is Thomas. And Mgteich is right, when a player as dominant as Ngata talks about the dominance of Mankins he knows much much more about the matter than any fan, and he's no "meathead."

The weaknesses on the Patriots OL are at RG and RT when Vollmer is out, and even then they are well above average. The real problem as many have said is their WR's getting open, welker was really the only one who was able to get open quickly and reliably and the key to this season offensively is going to be Amendola staying healthy and the rookie WR's having good seasons.

Ivan said:

The only guy on your list who is as good as Mankins is Thomas. And Mgteich is right, when a player as dominant as Ngata talks about the dominance of Mankins he knows much much more about the matter than any fan, and he's no "meathead."

The weaknesses on the Patriots OL are at RG and RT when Vollmer is out, and even then they are well above average. The real problem as many have said is their WR's getting open, welker was really the only one who was able to get open quickly and reliably and the key to this season offensively is going to be Amendola staying healthy and the rookie WR's having good seasons.

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You clearly haven't seen any of those other players play or you haven't seen Mankins play in over a year.


I forgot a bunch of other guys like Evan mathis who is way better guard.

In fact Mankins is not even a top five guard let alone top 8 ol player.

Evans
Mathis
Yanda
Nicks
Levitre

All are locks above Mankins. Especially if youre strictly looking at last year Mankins was not even top ten due to injuries.

tonyto3690 said:

I forgot a bunch of other guys like Evan mathis who is way better guard.

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If you're factoring in durability, I suppose an argument can be made. Otherwise you're just being silly.