Moss & Stallworth together on the field's impact

With Moss and Stallworth on the field team are going to have to not only cover them with their CBs 1on1 but also with over the top safety help.

Stallworth ran a 4.19 in his pro day, and Moss ran a 4.29 (recently?)...
Not to mention the size 6"1 and 6"4 and jump ball skills boss posses.

If either are 1 on 1 during a play, Brady can make a check at the line and they go deep and it's a sprint/jump ball deal and I'd put my money on the sub 4.3 6'1+ guys.

But anyway, having them both reduces the safeties' effectivness in other areas by having them play really deep it will open so many things underneath.

Watson: will no longer see as many double teams. He will outrun most linebackers, and outposition most DBs.

Welker: will be able to use his quickness and route running to get open

Maroney: will no longer have to deal with safeties keying on the run to stop him

Not to even mention the other WRs and backs who can catch!

Defensive Coordinators will have to stop the big play while we run the clock and "dink and dunk" and run on them. If they for a second forget about our HR hitters, it's going to be a blow out.

Oh and the colts lost both starting corners and the CB they drafted whom I like Daymeon Hughes ran a 4.65.

I think you misunderstand the Patriots system.

Moss and Stallworth will platoon as the deep receiver.

There wil be the slot receiver, were Bbrown and Welker platoon.

Then there will be the possesion short receiver where Caldwell and Gaffney compete.

Chad Jackson, heals and learns the deep receiver role and gets a few reps for a breakout in 2008. The others fill the PS.

TheBaronPatriot said:

With Moss and Stallworth on the field team are going to have to not only cover them with their CBs 1on1 but also with over the top safety help.

Stallworth ran a 4.19 in his pro day, and Moss ran a 4.29 (recently?)...
Not to mention the size 6"1 and 6"4 and jump ball skills boss posses.

If either are 1 on 1 during a play, Brady can make a check at the line and they go deep and it's a sprint/jump ball deal and I'd put my money on the sub 4.3 6'1+ guys.

But anyway, having them both reduces the safeties' effectivness in other areas by having them play really deep it will open so many things underneath.

Watson: will no longer see as many double teams. He will outrun most linebackers, and outposition most DBs.

Welker: will be able to use his quickness and route running to get open

Maroney: will no longer have to deal with safeties keying on the run to stop him

Not to even mention the other WRs and backs who can catch!

Defensive Coordinators will have to stop the big play while we run the clock and "dink and dunk" and run on them. If they for a second forget about our HR hitters, it's going to be a blow out.

Oh and the colts lost both starting corners and the CB they drafted whom I like Daymeon Hughes ran a 4.65.

Click to expand...

Okay, I'd say let's not get carried away, but I am carried away myself. Still, let's get it together a little...

First of all, the reason Daymeon Hughes was a household draft word wasn't his straight line speed. Straight line speed only gets you so far, as we've taught many teams, including the Colts, over the years. A CB needs to be able to backpedal, swivel, display awareness, use jumping ability and timing to compensate for speed or the receiver being behind him, etc. I am trying to learn more about secondary play, but that much I know. A receiver that runs crisp dependable routes, and gets there first, is almost undefensible... but just getting there first is only half the battle (I think in many ways this is what ends up being described as "timing.") Still and all, these two guys - Stallworth and Moss - have proven that their raw physical talent isn't some kind of workout only phenomenon, they have the past performance resume to back up the physical skills.

It might not grade out as the advantage we're seeing on paper, just saying. But God help the Colts and the rest of the league if it does.

PFnV

edit - but there's not denying that with Moss and Stallworth at work, there won't be a lot of spare defenders to deal with Watson, Welker, Maroney [or the rest of the run game,] or others. That part has to be scary, unless they're planning to use man on man press coverage against Moss and Stallworth... a pretty risky proposition.

A Cover 2 defense is the best situation for Hughes, IMO. His lack of speed will be protected some by safety help over the top so he will be able to jump routes and make interceptions which is what his game is. But he's not the kind of player you want matched up one on one with a speedy receiver.

AzPatsFan said:

I think you misunderstand the Patriots system.

Moss and Stallworth will platoon as the deep receiver.

There wil be the slot receiver, were Bbrown and Welker platoon.

Then there will be the possesion short receiver where Caldwell and Gaffney compete.

Chad Jackson, heals and learns the deep receiver role and gets a few reps for a breakout in 2008. The others fill the PS.

Click to expand...

Using Moss & Stallworth in the way I detailed would cause the most havoc on opposing offenses.

So before preaching to me about understanding the Patriots system you need to first understand it's about creating mismatches and take advantage of weaknesses in the defense.

Moss and Stallworth accomplish this as I have detailed.
I never said they would both always be on the field together.
I merely pointed out that both of them used together in this capacity would lead to huge issues for a defense.

Running the offense you proposed would be good and I'm sure they will do it, but to simply label moss & stallworth as deep guys only is a shortcoming in strategy and makes things a lot easier on defenses.

AzPatsFan said:

I think you misunderstand the Patriots system.

Moss and Stallworth will platoon as the deep receiver.

There wil be the slot receiver, were Bbrown and Welker platoon.

Then there will be the possesion short receiver where Caldwell and Gaffney compete.

Chad Jackson, heals and learns the deep receiver role and gets a few reps for a breakout in 2008. The others fill the PS.

Click to expand...

I totally agree. For Stallworth and Moss to be on the field together at the same time all the time, we would have to move to more of a vertical offense. I don't think that plays into Brady's strengths and you build your offense around The Franchise.

If you watch Moss' routes throughout his career (even on short passes), he runs vanilla straight line vertical routes. He doesn't run a lot of hooks, slants, screens, etc.

Brady is a methodical QB who beats defenses with his head and not his arm. The Pats run complicated routes and have a lot of presnap adjustments to help confuse defenses. I don't think Brady is going to become a gunslinger which is the type of QB who works best (for the most part) in a vertical offense. Bledsoe was a gunslinger. And I don't mean a guy who hucks it down the field 30 plus yards all the time.

I also think either Welker, Gaffney, or Caldwell will be out there a lot with either Moss or Stallworth in a two WR set. The Pats will probably play a lot more three and four WR sets because of the additions, but I am not sure that Moss will be a full-time starter. I think Stallworth is more likely because he is a better route runner and more versatile.

PatsFanInVa said:

Okay, I'd say let's not get carried away, but I am carried away myself. Still, let's get it together a little...

First of all, the reason Daymeon Hughes was a household draft word wasn't his straight line speed. Straight line speed only gets you so far, as we've taught many teams, including the Colts, over the years. A CB needs to be able to backpedal, swivel, display awareness, use jumping ability and timing to compensate for speed or the receiver being behind him, etc. I am trying to learn more about secondary play, but that much I know. A receiver that runs crisp dependable routes, and gets there first, is almost undefensible... but just getting there first is only half the battle (I think in many ways this is what ends up being described as "timing.") Still and all, these two guys - Stallworth and Moss - have proven that their raw physical talent isn't some kind of workout only phenomenon, they have the past performance resume to back up the physical skills.

It might not grade out as the advantage we're seeing on paper, just saying. But God help the Colts and the rest of the league if it does.

PFnV

edit - but there's not denying that with Moss and Stallworth at work, there won't be a lot of spare defenders to deal with Watson, Welker, Maroney [or the rest of the run game,] or others. That part has to be scary, unless they're planning to use man on man press coverage against Moss and Stallworth... a pretty risky proposition.

Click to expand...

Like the above poster mentions Hughes is a perfect Cover 2 corner.
His main responsability includes covering the flats and tackling RBs.
This is the role that he is best suited for using his physically tools you mentioned, fluidity etc.

Watching the colts 5"8 safety sanders and the rookie, I forget his name trying to cover these 2 deep will be fun.

PatsFanInVa said:

edit - but there's not denying that with Moss and Stallworth at work, there won't be a lot of spare defenders to deal with Watson, Welker, Maroney [or the rest of the run game,] or others. That part has to be scary, unless they're planning to use man on man press coverage against Moss and Stallworth... a pretty risky proposition.

Click to expand...

The one question is will Moss do something he hasn't done in the past. Will he sell his route consistently when he knows he isn't getting the ball? Having Moss on the field won't help opening up the running game or other receivers if he doesn't sell himself as a decoy. Even in Minnesotta, he would sink a lot of plays because he would walk of the line of scrimmage on plays not designed for him.

I know Belichick won't put up with that for very long, but I still wonder how much he will actually help the running game.

Rob0729 said:

The one question is will Moss do something he hasn't done in the past. Will he sell his route consistently when he knows he isn't getting the ball? Having Moss on the field won't help opening up the running game or other receivers if he doesn't sell himself as a decoy. Even in Minnesotta, he would sink a lot of plays because he would walk of the line of scrimmage on plays not designed for him.

I know Belichick won't put up with that for very long, but I still wonder how much he will actually help the running game.

Click to expand...

Moss has said in an interview that we've only seen a glimpse of his talent.
I think Moss understands the opportunity afforded to him here.

He now could be the best WR on the best team to ever play the game.
And yes that entails selling his routes, and blocking.

Question for The Baron -- Stallworth ran a 4.19 in his combine? Are you sure of that number. It's the fastest I've ever seen or heard of, and while I knew Donte was quick, I didn't realize that he was rocket-assisted.

TheBaronPatriot said:

Moss has said in an interview that we've only seen a glimpse of his talent.
I think Moss understands the opportunity afforded to him here.

He now could be the best WR on the best team to ever play the game.
And yes that entails selling his routes, and blocking.

Click to expand...

Oh please, no. We think too much of Belichick already. If he gets Moss to sell his routes when he's not the target, and block, they'll end up making a chuch out of him or something.

PFnV

Mainefan said:

Question for The Baron -- Stallworth ran a 4.19 in his combine? Are you sure of that number. It's the fastest I've ever seen or heard of, and while I knew Donte was quick, I didn't realize that he was rocket-assisted.

Click to expand...

Combine and Pro Day are different things. Pro Days are held at the schools, and they can typically tweak the environment so that it is ideal and maximizes the times for their players.

AzPatsFan said:

I think you misunderstand the Patriots system.

Moss and Stallworth will platoon as the deep receiver.

Click to expand...

Branch and Bethel used to be on the field at the same time.

There is no footlball law that says Moss must go deep and so much Stallworth. Both can run shorter routes. Any corner that ignores an incut fake is going to get burned.

Even without doubleteaming Moss, Stallworth will face teh Number 2 CB instead of the other teams No. 1. Last year Caldwell faced the other team's number one.

Going three wide receivers (Moss, Stallworth, Welker) and Watson and Maroney, what do you do as the defending team.

Mainefan said:

Question for The Baron -- Stallworth ran a 4.19 in his combine? Are you sure of that number. It's the fastest I've ever seen or heard of, and while I knew Donte was quick, I didn't realize that he was rocket-assisted.

Click to expand...

Let me try to find the link for it...
"Despite that, Stallworth, a junior, ran a 40 that was timed anywhere from 4.22 to 4.26 by NFL scouts. One team, Kansas City, had Stallworth at a hard-to-fathom 4.18. Stallworth did not work out at the NFL scouting combine in Indianapolis, but he has now jumped to the top of the list among draft-eligible receivers, and is a certain first-rounder."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/don_banks/news/2002/03/14/banks_insider/

PatsFanInVa said:

Oh please, no. We think too much of Belichick already. If he gets Moss to sell his routes when he's not the target, and block, they'll end up making a chuch out of him or something.

PFnV

Click to expand...

chuch?
can you expand on that?

spacecrime said:

Branch and Bethel used to be on the field at the same time.

There is no footlball law that says Moss must go deep and so much Stallworth. Both can run shorter routes. Any corner that ignores an incut fake is going to get burned.

Even without doubleteaming Moss, Stallworth will face teh Number 2 CB instead of the other teams No. 1. Last year Caldwell faced the other team's number one.

Going three wide receivers (Moss, Stallworth, Welker) and Watson and Maroney, what do you do as the defending team.

Click to expand...

That's what I'm saying.
This is my point.
This offense is going to be incredibly tough to stop from scoring if they use their chess pieces in this manner.

TheBaronPatriot said:

chuch?
can you expand on that?

Click to expand...

chuch (noun): A shrine built for Patriots Head Coach Bill Belichick. The "r" was removed from the word to emphasize the efficiency with which Belichick's teams destroyed the competition.

Assuming all goes well with our WR's, I wonder whether the opposition-teams will Blitz much more than previous years? This can nullify the WR's, if Brady does not have enough time to throw.. Would that mean 2 TE's blocking?

patriot9 said:

Assuming all goes well with our WR's, I wonder whether the opposition-teams will Blitz much more than previous years? This can nullify the WR's, if Brady does not have enough time to throw.. Would that mean 2 TE's blocking?

Click to expand...

The way you beat blitz is to recognize them before the play and change the WR's routes to take advantage.
For instance, if Moss is on the outside and you see a safety creeping this means that either Moss is 1 on 1, or Watson will have a LB on him...
Identify the missmatches and hit them.

The other traditional method to beating the blitz is to run screens and draws.
Suck in the blitzers and then get the ball out to playmakers.

AzPatsFan said:

I think you misunderstand the Patriots system.

Moss and Stallworth will platoon as the deep receiver.

There wil be the slot receiver, were Bbrown and Welker platoon.

Then there will be the possesion short receiver where Caldwell and Gaffney compete.

Chad Jackson, heals and learns the deep receiver role and gets a few reps for a breakout in 2008. The others fill the PS.

Click to expand...

NE will use some 3,4, and 5 WR sets.