Does Bill Parcells belong in the Hall of Fame?

patsfan209 said:

...Yeah, it was an incredible defensive effort in Super Bowl XXV given that Belichick had no say in the grocery shopping for the Giants

Click to expand...

Either did Parcells back then--the GM had personnel control and most of the decision-making influence.

patsfan209 said:

and the fact that Parcells, as head coach, had the power to overrule any playcalling his coordinators make at any given time.

Click to expand...

True, but Parcells often had an attitude of "this better work" and interfered little with the defensive playcalling.

patsfan209 said:

Belichick may be Giants defensive coordinator, but no way was that his defense. It was Parcells'.
...

Click to expand...

Oh yes? Then why does it have BB's name on it in the hall of fame?

As much as it pains me to write it, OF COURSE PARCELLS BELONGS IN THE HOF.

If he doesn't, who does?

Parcells will go to Canton because of the three SB appearances and two SB wins, but here is why I voted "No" on this poll:

Bill Parcells record WITH BB as Assistant Head Coach or Defensive Coordinator:

Regular Season
Won: 105
Lost: 64
Pctg.: .660

Post-season
Won:11
Lost: 8
Pctg: .579

Division Championships: 5
Conference Championships: 3
SuperBowl Championships: 2

Bill Parcells record WITHOUT BB as Assistant Head Coach or Defensive Coordinator:

Regular Season
Won: 67
Lost: 69
Tied: 1
Pctg.: .493

Post-season
Won: 1
Lost: 3
Pctg: .250

Division Championships: 0
Conference Championships: 0
SuperBowl Championships: 0

RayClay said:

Also, can we quit with this Belichick won all Parcells titles, then sprang straight from heaven to become Patriots coach stuff?

It's childish.

Belichick was the chief Parcells disciple, learned more from him than from anyone else and improved tremendously between his Browns stint and the Pats head coaching job, while asst head coach to Parcells.

Click to expand...

I wish you hadn't used the term "childish," as I think this is a reasonable debate that knowledgeable people can have. Save the name calling for the trolls.

I think of BB as a disciple of Paul Brown, Bill Walsh, Ted Marchibroda and his dad far more than I think of him as a disciple of Bill Parcells. That's not to say that he didn't learn from Parcells, but, as I indicated in another post, I think a reasonable argument can be made that the latter was at least a two way street.

I also think that Belichick's experience in Cleveland, from which he no doubt learned quite a bit, was colored by the team's move and the whole Kosar distraction. In other words, I'm not so sure that he was that bad a coach at that time.

PatsFanSince74 said:

Parcells will go to Canton because of the three SB appearances and two SB wins, but here is why I voted "No" on this poll:

Bill Parcells record WITH BB as Assistant Head Coach or Defensive Coordinator:

Regular Season
Won: 105
Lost: 64
Pctg.: .660

Post-season
Won:11
Lost: 8
Pctg: .579

Division Championships: 5
Conference Championships: 3
SuperBowl Championships: 2

Bill Parcells record WITHOUT BB as Assistant Head Coach or Defensive Coordinator:

Regular Season
Won: 67
Lost: 69
Tied: 1
Pctg.: .493

Post-season
Won: 1
Lost: 3
Pctg: .250

Division Championships: 0
Conference Championships: 0
SuperBowl Championships: 0

Click to expand...

All this really means is Parcells was smart enough to hire him. What we're the names of his other DC's? You'll have to look it up, because no-one remembers.

There were a significant number of players on the championship Patriot teams that were drafted and coached up by BP even after the 3 year Carroll era.

His stamp is still on this team 11 years after his departure.

Look those #'s up. I vote YES.

Truthfully I'm undecided... I think Parcells is a bit full of himself though I'm exceptionally grateful for what he, Kraft and Bledsoe meant to restoring this franchise, that alone might be enough to have me vote yes

But the fact that he put winning a SB in 96 secondary to finding a place for himself with the Jets - and the fact that the return on investment of Parcells as HC has steadilly declined takes some shine off the coin.

Can we really say he brought the Cowboys back? Generally speaking, he peaked with the Giants - and each successive coaching assignment has seen him do just a little bit worse. I think part of that is because his intimidation schtick has worn thin with players in the day and age of TO and other prima donna players - but the fact that he's unable to motivate players like that seems to illustrate that to a degree, motivation was part of his allure as a coach, and without that, is he truly a HoF X's & O's tactition? Or should some of that credit go to his coordinators at the time that he peaked with the Giants... and truly, as far as the Giants, shouldn't LT get a little credit too?

PatsFanSince74 said:

I think of BB as a disciple of Paul Brown, Bill Walsh, Ted Marchibroda and his dad far more than I think of him as a disciple of Bill Parcells. That's not to say that he didn't learn from Parcells, but, as I indicated in another post, I think a reasonable argument can be made that the latter was at least a two way street.

I also think that Belichick's experience in Cleveland, from which he no doubt learned quite a bit, was colored by the team's move and the whole Kosar distraction. In other words, I'm not so sure that he was that bad a coach at that time.

Click to expand...

On the money post

Isaac said:

True, but Parcells often had an attitude of "this better work" and interfered little with the defensive playcalling.

Click to expand...

My point being is that head coaches aren't wallflowers which is what some people think Parcells was when BB was with him. That job title has power to it, much more than you think.

Oh yes? Then why does it have BB's name on it in the hall of fame?

Click to expand...

Its a defensive coordinator's playbook. So what? Doesn't change the fact who the head coach was for that team. And THAT is the coach I see is the one ultimately responsible for the offense, defense, and special teams. Always.

Someday when I'm President and rule everything I am going to revisit these Patriot Board message threads and round up all the people who did not see things the way I did. That will be step 1 to making America a better place to live.

I repeat...Bill Parcells belongs in the HOF. You have until now and when I get elected President to change your vote from no to yes. You have been warned.

Yes, but only if they dedicate a viewing room to his post-game clips and sound bites. Nobody man-handled the media better.

PatsFanSince74 said:

Parcells will go to Canton because of the three SB appearances and two SB wins, but here is why I voted "No" on this poll:

Bill Parcells record WITH BB as Assistant Head Coach or Defensive Coordinator:

Regular Season
Won: 105
Lost: 64
Pctg.: .660

Post-season
Won:11
Lost: 8
Pctg: .579

Division Championships: 5
Conference Championships: 3
SuperBowl Championships: 2

Bill Parcells record WITHOUT BB as Assistant Head Coach or Defensive Coordinator:

Regular Season
Won: 67
Lost: 69
Tied: 1
Pctg.: .493

Post-season
Won: 1
Lost: 3
Pctg: .250

Division Championships: 0
Conference Championships: 0
SuperBowl Championships: 0

Click to expand...

I don't have them, but maybe you should list the records of the teams Parcells started with on the Patriots and Jets for instance.

I'm sure you probably could, but you won't because it will wreck your specious argument that Belichick came fully formed after a virgin birth and Parcells is an idiot.

PatsFanSince74 said:

I wish you hadn't used the term "childish," as I think this is a reasonable debate that knowledgeable people can have. Save the name calling for the trolls.

I think of BB as a disciple of Paul Brown, Bill Walsh, Ted Marchibroda and his dad far more than I think of him as a disciple of Bill Parcells. That's not to say that he didn't learn from Parcells, but, as I indicated in another post, I think a reasonable argument can be made that the latter was at least a two way street.

I also think that Belichick's experience in Cleveland, from which he no doubt learned quite a bit, was colored by the team's move and the whole Kosar distraction. In other words, I'm not so sure that he was that bad a coach at that time.

Click to expand...

Well if you can prove the word inaccurate, I'll apologize. 15 years under the same coach on three different teams. I'm no Bible scholar, but did any of the original disciples have that type of relationship?

He was reading books about Walsh and such and totally ignoring the boss he followed to three different teams but was totally uninfluenced by,

I think "childish" is a kind way of putting it.

He'll get in and he deserves it but he problably wouldnt have won all those SB's without our favorite coach as his D Coord.

Kdo5 said:

He'll get in and he deserves it but he problably wouldnt have won all those SB's without our favorite coach as his D Coord.

Click to expand...

Maybe, maybe not. That doesn't negate the fact that Parcells took 4 going nowhere teams and made them contenders or better.

83 Giants 3-12

92 Patriots 2-14

96 Jets 9 1-15

2002 5-11

Wow, maybe there's a reason that record doesn't look so great.

When he's actually retired for good, he'll get in.

PatsSteve1 said:

When he's actually retired for good, he'll get in.

Click to expand...

I hope he can convince somebody before he passes.

"I'm retired. No, for real this time!"

OhExaulted1 said:

All this really means is Parcells was smart enough to hire him. What we're the names of his other DC's? You'll have to look it up, because no-one remembers.

There were a significant number of players on the championship Patriot teams that were drafted and coached up by BP even after the 3 year Carroll era.

His stamp is still on this team 11 years after his departure.

Look those #'s up. I vote YES.

Click to expand...

Parcells did not hire Belichick!

While not only invalidating the rest of your argument, this brings up a good point. The perception is that BB was under Parcells with the Giants. They were both hired originally by Perkins (hope that's the right name), when he left they chose to elevate Parcells to head coach even though he had less NFL experience than did BB at the time. Why? Because he was older and had college head coaching experience--BB was very young at the time and it would have been premature.

They then worked together over the next ~10 years and were part of a very good team with excellent drafting by the front office, above average head coaching by Parcells, and the unleashing of BB's defense against the NFL. I grew up a Giants fan, I lived it and it was all about that defense and the way they played that 3-4 with that front seven--it was awesome. Of course Parcells deserves part of the credit for their achievements, but so do the other ~70 people in the organization.

Isaac said:

Parcells did not hire Belichick!

While not only invalidating the rest of your argument, this brings up a good point. The perception is that BB was under Parcells with the Giants. They were both hired originally by Perkins (hope that's the right name), when he left they chose to elevate Parcells to head coach even though he had less NFL experience than did BB at the time. Why? Because he was older and had college head coaching experience--BB was very young at the time and it would have been premature.

They then worked together over the next ~10 years and were part of a very good team with excellent drafting by the front office, above average head coaching by Parcells, and the unleashing of BB's defense against the NFL. I grew up a Giants fan, I lived it and it was all about that defense and the way they played that 3-4 with that front seven--it was awesome. Of course Parcells deserves part of the credit for their achievements, but so do the other ~70 people in the organization.

Click to expand...

Plus Parcells was the defensive coordinator. After Parcells ascended, BB didn't become defensive coordinator for a few years.

Of course a lot of people had a part.

And neither BB or Parcells blocked that field goal either.

patsfan209 said:

...And THAT is the coach I see is the one ultimately responsible for the offense, defense, and special teams. Always.

Click to expand...

So that is the ultimate essence of your argument then? That the head coach always gets credit for the defense, regardless. That seems a little extreme, no? Wouldn't you at least allow, that in the rarest of cases, a coordinator would pretty much run the defense?

Of course, the 85' Bears are the classic example. Mike Ditka had literally no relationship with that defense. Ditka once addressed the defense with a fiery speech and then left the room. Buddy Ryan agrily slammed the door and said "F--- that sh--. We're playing for the money." They carried both coaches of the field for a reason. But, uh, come to think of it so did they BB.

For you see, the Parcells-BB Giants was one of those cases. Not to the extreme of the '85 Bears, for BB welcomed Parcells' imput and roles in the defense and as the leader. But to give Hall of Fame credit to Parcells solely for this accomplishment does not stand the test of time. For the remainder of his career, sans BB's magic, is but mediocre.

Isaac said:

So that is the ultimate essence of your argument then? That the head coach always gets credit for the defense, regardless. That seems a little extreme, no? Wouldn't you at least allow, that in the rarest of cases, a coordinator would pretty much run the defense?

Of course, the 85' Bears are the classic example. Mike Ditka has literally no relationship with that defense. Ditka once addressed the defense with a fiery speech and then left the room. Buddy Ryan agrily slammed the door and said "F--- that sh--. We're playing for the money." They carried both coaches of the field for a reason. But, uh, come to think of it so did they BB.

For you see, the Parcells-BB Giants were one of those cases. Not to the extreme of the '85 Bears, for BB welcomed Parcells' imput and roles in the offense as the leader. But to give Hall of Fame credit to Parcells solely for this accomplishment does not stand the test of time. For the remainder of his career, sans BB's magic, is but mediocre.

Click to expand...

He never took over a mediocre team. They were all awful. Just because he didn't win it all doesn't mean Pats, Jets and Dallas weren't great rebuilding jobs.