Freeney injury status (merged)

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

PittPatriot said:

I would trade Matt Light for Dwight Freeney straight up.
That way Peyton Manning's career could be shortened a few years with Matt's ability to provide 'virtual layers of protection.'

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Matt Light is having a probowl season this year without the help of blocking TE most of the time. I don't see how that would hurt Peyton right now with Charlie Johnson doing his best matador impression

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

I'd call it an apples and oranges comparison. You just don't compare 4-3 and 3-4 lineman. If you need any proof that roles in the two schemes are substantially different, ask why Lance Briggs was not interested in joining a team that plays a 3-4 rather than the 4-3 defense in Chicago (can you say sack numbers dropping substantially with the change?).

Freeney is an edge rusher with speed, much like Jason Taylor. Those guys are great at rushing the pasher by going around guards and tackles, but go to a run with blockers driving out (rather than back as would be seen in a pash rush), and they get bulldozed under 40+ pounds of additional weight with momentum. Seymour has the size to shed one or two blockers and get to the running back. He is also quick enough to shed a good pass blocker, which may not be said as easily of Freeney or Taylor if their angle to the quarterback is cut off on a pass rush.

And to say you can just add 30 or 40 pounds and change the scheme, try running with that weight and counter your own argument. Quickness is the first thing to go (thing back to the days of William Perry or Gilbert Brown and see how 40 pounds can make a fast defensive lineman a fat defensive lineman who watches running backs and quarterbacks speed on by-when they have the endurance to stay on the line).

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

The very thought of Freeney being better than Seymour is laughable. If Freeney came to the Patriots he would never play on the line, he would have to be an OLB, and he would suck at setting the edge.

Beyond that, Seymour makes every player around him better. Every player around Freeney has to step up their game to overcome his inability to play the run (by scheme and as a result of talent).

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

Armen Da Pats Fan said:

You really don't think with his talent, Freeney couldn't put on some pounds and play in the Pats system?

Or, a better question is, you don't think Belichick, who has proven he will tailor his game plans to his talent, wouldn't find a way to incorporate a talent like Freeney?

Freeney's RS career numbers (through 2006):

-74 games played in 5 seasons, including 16 games each of the last three and 14 in 2003. Rookie year: 12 games. Average of 14.80 per season.
-161 career tackles
-55 career sacks

Seymour's RS career numbers (through 2006):

-87 games played in 6 seasons. Rookie year: 13 games. Average of 14.50 per season.
-176 career tackles
-29.5 career sacks

So, statistically, they are close.

Now, gut reaction: You watch a game and Seymour is in there and Freeney is in there.

Who do you notice more? Who makes more of an impact?

Honestly?

You CANNOT answer honestly and answer Seymour.

Say you love Seymour because he is a Patriot, say you love him because you're a homer for all things New England, say you love him because he is perfect for this particular system as it is constituted today. Heck, say you plunked down $90 on a Seymour jersey and you just don't want to see him leave!

I will repsect all those answers.

But don't say Richard Seymour is more of an IMPACT player than Dwight Freeney!

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You really know nothing about football, do you? It's not who is more of an IMPACT player, since you're clearly talking about IMPACT in terms of what people see when watching on TV without knowing much about the game. Freeney makes an IMPACT play every once in awhile, but the rest of the time he gets run over, then he gets worn out because he's small, and then he spends the better part of the 4th quarter sucking wind. What matters is who performs their (relatively unheralded) role so spectacularly that they demand a double team on EVERY play. Defense isn't about stats, and it isn't about highlight reels. In fact, as often as not, guys become detriments to their team in pursuit of the highlight reel play.

No, Seymour doesn't make as many flashy plays. You know what else he doesn't do? He doesn't get run over. He doesn't get taken out of games. He doesn't let the tackles get a push off the line. And that's only the beginning.

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

I am a big Seymour backer myself, but I think people aer going a little over the top with the Freeney bashing here. For a guy who is suppoesdly mediocre, Light had plenty of trouble with him. Really, he is the only guy Light has had trouble with all season, including Schoebel, Merriman, and Taylor. The 'Boys got some decent pressure early on, but were effectively nuetered in the second half.

Freeney is a an excellent DE in the 4-3. He may or may not be all that good here (we'll never know how good an OLB he could have been) and for that reason I would take Seymour. But Freeney is a very good pass rusher.

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

PittPatriot said:

I would trade Matt Light for Dwight Freeney straight up.
That way Peyton Manning's career could be shortened a few years with Matt's ability to provide 'virtual layers of protection.'

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I really wish people would know wtf they are talking about when it comes to Matt Light. Matt may struggle from time to time against the speed rushers, but ALL OTs struggle against them. That includes the likes of Orlando Pace, Jonathan Ogden, and Walter Jones.

Was I happy that Light was credited with allowing 7.5 sacks last season? Nope. I know he could have done better. But there is such a thing as the other player. And when you are going up against Jason Taylor, Aaron Schoebel, and Shawne Merriman, they ARE going to beat you on occasion.

One of the things that TOO MANY people have done this year is blame LIGHT for Kaczur's screw ups.. Kaczur was more responsible for sacks this year. And O'Callaghan has been dismal.

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

I can't believe some of the stuff I've read in this thread. Number one, Freeney could never be a 3-4 end. Never. Yeah, he could put on thirty pounds. And then he'd be overweight and even slower than he has been of late, without much increase in his functional strength. He doesn't have the frame for it. On top of that, he's not a technician when it comes to playing with leverage and hand placement, so he couldn't play the 3, 4 or 5 techniques in our two-gap scheme like he'd be asked to (especially the latter two). No way it could happen, he doesn't have the size or functional strength to control the B and C gaps in those alignments, we'd get run all over. He'd be an OLB almost certainly in our scheme.

Seymour, even when he's hurt, collapses the pocket play after play. He'll just blow up his part of the field where the offensive line wants to set up, and make things harder on the quarterback. In addition, he'll take on two blockers and win, he'll hold the point of attack, he'll stack and shed out in space if he's asked to and then make the tackle, and in general, he'll make the lives of the opposing guard-tackle combo he's facing into a total hell. Yes, Freeney is flashy, and occasionally he'll get into a groove as a speed rusher and blow up the opposing tackle off the edge, but he's totally one-dimensional. He just can't set the edge when he's playing in space, and he can't hold up at the point of attack on the line when a big offensive lineman gets into his body. You don't even need to throw a combination block at him to move him in the running game. There's no question, Seymour enables the Patriots to do so many things on defense that they can't do when he's not in there, because of his raw ability to dominate in a short area. Seymour is my choice, by a mile.

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

MassPats38 said:

I'd call it an apples and oranges comparison. You just don't compare 4-3 and 3-4 lineman. If you need any proof that roles in the two schemes are substantially different, ask why Lance Briggs was not interested in joining a team that plays a 3-4 rather than the 4-3 defense in Chicago (can you say sack numbers dropping substantially with the change?).

Freeney is an edge rusher with speed, much like Jason Taylor. Those guys are great at rushing the pasher by going around guards and tackles, but go to a run with blockers driving out (rather than back as would be seen in a pash rush), and they get bulldozed under 40+ pounds of additional weight with momentum. Seymour has the size to shed one or two blockers and get to the running back. He is also quick enough to shed a good pass blocker, which may not be said as easily of Freeney or Taylor if their angle to the quarterback is cut off on a pass rush.

And to say you can just add 30 or 40 pounds and change the scheme, try running with that weight and counter your own argument. Quickness is the first thing to go (thing back to the days of William Perry or Gilbert Brown and see how 40 pounds can make a fast defensive lineman a fat defensive lineman who watches running backs and quarterbacks speed on by-when they have the endurance to stay on the line).

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I love Lance Briggs, I had him picked out as a steal in that draft for a team he could play sideline to sideline with. He'd have to play WILB in our scheme. He'd struggle to play OLB, at his size. Great player, but he's smart enough to know the 3-4 isn't for him, just like it's not for Freeney.

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

PatsFanInVa said:

Excellent, excellent point to make about sack stats. I (and probably many others) made the same point about Samuel's int. stats during his almost-holdout: You do not change the season because of the big play that happens not even once a game.

You do greatly enhance otherwise solid play if you can add those big plays, but as you say, Freeney's a pass rush specialist.

It's like giving 80 million over 8 years to Kabeer G'Baja Biamilla. Remember him?

And can someone for the LOVE OF GOD, please tell me that Aaron Kampmann is Jewish? Okay that was a little off topic. It was the Green Bay pass rusher connection. It just seems he should be. That said, Aaron Schobel too, please.

Another "listening to sports radio driving up I-95" point: I had the Skins-Eagles game on. The Phillie announcers were comical. About every 3 plays, one of these guys was saying, "why aren't they sacking the quarterback?" or, "this would be a great time to sack the quarterback."

Yeah, well, sacking the quarterback is a lot like some processed food commercial, I forget which... "Anytime's a great time for sacking the quarterback." You can work at it, you can send in a specialist to do it, and you love that one or two plays when it happens. But if you think that's going to win you games, you're mistaken. I'll take a consistent run-stopping D any day of the week, and, as the saying goes, twice on Sunday.

PFnV

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On differnece though. Samuels Ints were a high number, Freeneys sacks are a poor number.
Obviously an Int has a bigger impact than a sack, and occurs less frequently. But the imact of leading the league in Ints isn't comparable to the impact of being 52nd in the league in sacks.
Think about being 52nd in the league in sacks.
That means on 19 teams you would be the 3rd best pass rusher and on 13 teams you would be 2nd best. (Actually tied for 2nd best on most,since he is tired for 52nd)
I still cannot fathom how a guy who has POOR numbers rushing the passer and is given a role where he only rushers the passer can be considered a great defensive player, much less great at his position. If I am a .220 hitter with power, but only hit 11 HRs and drive in 65, I am not a great baseball player, even if I used to hit 35 HRs before they figured out I couldn't hit the curve.

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

Per Schefter: Colts claim Simeon Rice off waivers.

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

AndyJohnson said:

On differnece though. Samuels Ints were a high number, Freeneys sacks are a poor number.
Obviously an Int has a bigger impact than a sack, and occurs less frequently. But the imact of leading the league in Ints isn't comparable to the impact of being 52nd in the league in sacks.
Think about being 52nd in the league in sacks.
That means on 19 teams you would be the 3rd best pass rusher and on 13 teams you would be 2nd best. (Actually tied for 2nd best on most,since he is tired for 52nd)
I still cannot fathom how a guy who has POOR numbers rushing the passer and is given a role where he only rushers the passer can be considered a great defensive player, much less great at his position. If I am a .220 hitter with power, but only hit 11 HRs and drive in 65, I am not a great baseball player, even if I used to hit 35 HRs before they figured out I couldn't hit the curve.

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It actually blew my mind that he's that far down in the pass rush stats, given that that's all he does. Probably like many here, what I remember is his one league leading season... when spinning around in a circle was new.

As for this notion that you just make him do stuff different, change his shape and weight, and plug him into a role here, it makes me ill.

Look: We have the best 3 D linemen in the league, for what we do. Given the success of what we do, many say we have the best 3 in the league.

Why the hell would we want to try to plug in a guy who - in his present form - could not perform in that system, hoping we could change him to make him possibly maybe we hope just as good as what we already have???

That's the kind of thing you do with a college prospect, a guy whose value is unknown, not the kind of thing you do with a known quantity, who is good at a certain kind of game, and is already being overcompensated for what he brings. It's like going out and buying a used porsche, where the engine is only so-so with unleaded gas -- oh yeah, the only kind you can buy nowadays. Then you try to bolt on a big flatbed, based on the idea that if you take the porsche's performance from back when his engine was the coolest thing out there, and bolt on a flatbed, then maybe stick a JATO bottle on the trunk, it would be the fastest dadburn flatbed on the road, when in fact that's not what you want anyway, unless you're shooting a scene for Mythbusters or the Darwin Awards.

I do love Dwight Freeney for tying up the Colts' payroll for a good long time.

By the way in terms of cash...? Why don't we talk about whether you want Dwight Freeney for 8 years, or Randy Moss. Because that's the kind of cash we're talking about... assuming Randy even demands that much.

PFnV

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

LoganMankinsPancakeBlocks said:

Per Schefter: Colts claim Simeon Rice off waivers.

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Rice is TOAST

6 tackles and no sacks in 7 games for a mediocre Denver defense...too bad Denver didn't wait to release him...they could've probably swindled a 4th!

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

LoganMankinsPancakeBlocks said:

Per Schefter: Colts claim Simeon Rice off waivers.

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LOL, seriously?

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

I would take 2004 Richard Seymour over 2007 Dwight Freeney. Absolutely.

But 2007 Freeney over 2006 Seymour without hesitation.

It's not like Freeney is a complete non-factor against the run. He's very stout. And can you imagine Rosey coming off the edge with Freeney? Riiiight. There is a reason why we've been "bend don't break" in the last few years. Our pass rush isn't what it was in 03-04, when our defense was a turnover machine. A guy like Freeney would be a great addition. Especially with Green on the bench for the 4-3 look.

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

Grizzafted said:

I would take 2004 Richard Seymour over 2007 Dwight Freeney. Absolutely.

But 2007 Freeney over 2006 Seymour without hesitation.

It's not like Freeney is a complete non-factor against the run. He's very stout. And can you imagine Rosey coming off the edge with Freeney? Riiiight. There is a reason why we've been "bend don't break" in the last few years. Our pass rush isn't what it was in 03-04, when our defense was a turnover machine. A guy like Freeney would be a great addition. Especially with Green on the bench for the 4-3 look.

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Aside from the fact that our defense is producing turnovers at a pretty good clip this year, what Dwight Freeney have you been watching that's "very stout"? A stiff wind could blow him off the line this year.

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

PatsWin said:

Nobody mentions Freeney's injury. Sadly, when a Colt is down, media exaggerates. They forgot we were without Seymour for 7 weeks.

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SO true you think Polian has his finger up the media's ass too? maybe huh

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

All I know is that if you get carted off the field you better be done for the season.

I can't even think of the last Patriot I saw carted off the field. If you get carted off the field the injury should be serious or the player is a **** bag.

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

mcdonut16 said:

All I know is that if you get carted off the field you better be done for the season.

I can't even think of the last Patriot I saw carted off the field. If you get carted off the field the injury should be serious or the player is a **** bag.

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So you would rather a guy risk aggravating an injury just for the purpose of looking tough?

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

Armen Da Pats Fan said:

Not to mention that the Colts losing Freeney is much more serious than the Pats losing Seymour for the following reasons:

1) The Pats have greater talent and depth on the defensive line than the Colts

2) New England is accustomed to playing without Seymour due to his chronic injury history

3) Freeney is a player of greater impact than Seymour

(and don't anyone even start arguing that you'd take Seymour over Freeney, because if you do, you're just whacked. WHACKED!)

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Sorry man - but, there is no way I take Freeney over Seymour, are you kidding me?????

Re: Is Freeney out for season?

Grizzafted said:

I would take 2004 Richard Seymour over 2007 Dwight Freeney. Absolutely.

But 2007 Freeney over 2006 Seymour without hesitation.

It's not like Freeney is a complete non-factor against the run. He's very stout. And can you imagine Rosey coming off the edge with Freeney? Riiiight. There is a reason why we've been "bend don't break" in the last few years. Our pass rush isn't what it was in 03-04, when our defense was a turnover machine. A guy like Freeney would be a great addition. Especially with Green on the bench for the 4-3 look.

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How are we bend but dont break? We are top 5 in yards allowed. Bend buty dont break is a defense that is near the bottom in yards, but near the top in points allowed.
Freeney is worse than a non-factor against the run, he is picked on. Stout is the antonym of freeney as a run defender.
Seymour of 2006-2007 is as good as ever. Freeney of 2007 is a guy who cant sack the QB anymore.
Our pass rush is equal or better than it was in 03-04.
Freeney would only play on 3rd downs here.
Basically, I disagree with everythign you said.