3 to be 4 believes you're going to HELL!!

[grogan2767]

Think about that. He believes that you will be tormented and suffering in unimaginable pain, forever and ever and ever, IF you do not become a Born Again Christian. It is the most awful, disgraceful lie ever perpetrated against man. More suffering has been caused (physical and emotional) by religion than anything else in all of history. 3 to be 4 is a victim of CHristianity and so was I. I was an evangelical born again Christian for 20 years. It teaches you to think everyone who is not a Born Again Christian is under the control of the Devil.

http://www.ex-christian.net/

Go Pats!

 

[3 to be 4]

Think about that. He believes that you will be tormented and suffering in unimaginable pain, forever and ever and ever, IF you do not become a Born Again Christian. It is the most awful, disgraceful lie ever perpetrated against man. More suffering has been caused (physical and emotional) by religion than anything else in all of history. 3 to be 4 is a victim of CHristianity and so was I. I was an evangelical born again Christian for 20 years. It teaches you to think everyone who is not a Born Again Christian is under the control of the Devil.

http://www.ex-christian.net/

Go Pats!

I would love to hear your testimony, about your 20 years, and about what brought you to your change of heart.

 

[grogan2767]

Are you a Born Again Christian?

I'd be happy to correspond with you. It is like the Matrix though. You will deconvert if you begin to use your brain again. You have shut down very important parts of your brain in order to accept such rediculous doctrines, beliefs, dogma, etc. Are you a Calvinist? Are you an Arminian? Do you love believe in eternal security? Can you lose your salvation? Do you speak in toungues? believe in them? You are in the world's biggest cult. Amazingly you are also the victim od SELF brainwashing, as most Christians are.

Here's the bottom line fact. People who get "saved" fall in love with "Jesus" way before they know what is really in the Bible. They are SO convinced, that by the time the read the horrors commited by this "god", they first can't beleive it, but then later begin to accept redilculous Chistian defenses. (I.e. Sin is SOOO horrible that God HAS to torture us for ALL evertinity, He has no choice because we were so awful biting that apple, and getting born and all.)

I'll chagt with you any time.

http://www.ex-christian.net

I would love to hear your testimony, about your 20 years, and about what brought you to your change of heart.

 

[3 to be 4]

Are you a Born Again Christian?

I'd be happy to correspond with you. It is like the Matrix though. You will deconvert if you begin to use your brain again. You have shut down very important parts of your brain in order to accept such rediculous doctrines, beliefs, dogma, etc. Are you a Calvinist? Are you an Arminian? Do you love believe in eternal security? Can you lose your salvation? Do you speak in toungues? believe in them? You are in the world's biggest cult. Amazingly you are also the victim od SELF brainwashing, as most Christians are.

Here's the bottom line fact. People who get "saved" fall in love with "Jesus" way before they know what is really in the Bible. They are SO convinced, that by the time the read the horrors commited by this "god", they first can't beleive it, but then later begin to accept redilculous Chistian defenses. (I.e. Sin is SOOO horrible that Gos HAS to torture us for ALL evertinity, He has no choice because we were so awful biting that apple, and getting born and all.)

I'll chagt with you any time.

http://www.ex-christian.net

mmm. thats not really my experience with it and not really the experience of those around me. I know whats in the Bible. I notice you are directing almost all your attention on the Old Testament, which is interesting to me.
How about the New Testament?
Im sorry you had the experience you did. You seem to have had an unreasonable expectation of who God was and is.
lets keep the dialogue up.

 

[grogan2767]

>>Are you a Calvinist? Are you an Arminian? Do you love believe in eternal security? Can you lose your salvation? Do you speak in toungues? believe in them? You are in the world's biggest cult. Amazingly you are also the victim od SELF brainwashing, as most Christians are.

All this stuff I asked you about is New Test dogma.

What, as a Christian you reject the Old Test? Jesus said none of that is abolished but every bit of the law must be fullfilled. Of course, He was contradicting himself at that point as well though, since he says He who has no sin can cast the first stone.

Of course, he never said any of this foolishness. The Bible is a mess.

Yeah, I know the NT, I'll school you on the New Testament if you like.

I'm starting to get interested in what you are all about. Are you a CHristian at all? You don;t call your self Born Again, or believe in the OT?

mmm. thats not really my experience with it and not really the experience of those around me. I know whats in the Bible. I notice you are directing almost all your attention on the Old Testament, which is interesting to me.
How about the New Testament?
Im sorry you had the experience you did. You seem to have had an unreasonable expectation of who God was and is.
lets keep the dialogue up.

 

[grogan2767]

you wrote>> Im sorry you had the experience you did. You seem to have had an unreasonable expectation of who God was and is.
lets keep the dialogue up.[/QUOTE]

Don't be silly. I had a fine experience. That's not the point. The experience is irrelevant. What matters is the fact that the Bible is bull ****. Think about that. If the Bible is Bull **** (which it is) it has messed your life up pretty bad. (If you even really are what I consider a "christian")

Do you believe that you are going to Heaven and that your non-Christian friends are going to eternal torment?

Do you believe that you have the Holy Spirit living in you somehow and your non-Christian friends and family do not?

This is what the Bible teaches. If the Bible is bull **** (which it is) and you belive these things, then YOU my friend are a dubious human being. What use are you to anyone, if this what you think about them?

Come on out of the Cult.

http://www.ex-christian.net/

 

[3 to be 4]

ok then.

I am a born again Christian. I do accept both the Old and New Testaments.

If you would like to have a reasonable conversation about it I would be happy to continue. If you are going to be out of control about it and insulting, to not only me, but of every other religion out there, then I'm not.

 

[grogan2767]

Any time. Keep in mind, I'm not someone you are just trying to witness to. I was a full blown Born Again beleiver, and studied the Bible an theology for years. I am an ex-Christian. Bring it if you like.

Try to defend it.

You say I am insulting. Christianity is insulting. Let's be fair. Something can be insulting and be true. I say it is clearly a lie, you don;t. We can go from there if you want to.

ok then.

I am a born again Christian. I do accept both the Old and New Testaments.

If you would like to have a reasonable conversation about it I would be happy to continue. If you are going to be out of control about it and insulting, to not only me, but of every other religion out there, then I'm not.

 

[3 to be 4]

Any time. Keep in mind, I'm not someone you are just trying to witness to. I was a full blown Born Again beleiver, and studied the Bible an theology for years. I am an ex-Christian. Bring it if you like.

Try to defend it.

You say I am insulting. Christianity is insulting. Let's be fair. Something can be insulting and be true. I say it is clearly a lie, you don;t. We can go from there if you want to.

Why is it a lie, because you didnt agree with Gods methods? And when I say that, im not conceding the conclusions that you have made from those verses, as I believe you have left out most of the story. I just want to get the gist of what made you change your mind after 20 years.
You see, ironically, I came to Christianity from the opposite direction. Much of my experience growing up Jewish was of people telling God what to do, instead of believing that we are here to serve His needs, not the other way around. If God has a plan and God has a method, its not my place to say hes wrong or doesnt exist because I disagree.

And I do agree with you that it shouldnt be that half the Christians are out there obsessing on whether they are being "good enough". Im wondering what denomination your experience was. My first Church experience after being Saved was in a traditional, conservative, Baptist Church in South Carolina. Suit and Ties. People just standing there while the choir sang. No personal relationship with ************. Everybody being shamed into being "obediant enough" to the church. I knew that wasnt why I was Saved. I found my walk after watching the Passion of the Christ and being reminded who it was I was following, not some pastor, not some church. It was about ************. And he didnt care if i wore a suit or jeans and a sweatshirt. And secondly I started worshiping at Black Churches. A friend of mine invited me to Friday night revival service. 2 Black churches combined in East Florence, SC. I was the only white guy out of 200 people, people were falling out all around me, the praising was through the roof, and I never felt so safe and so free in my life. From then on I sought out non-denominational praising churches where the focus will always be on Jesus and on the Bible and on praising and worship.

I have found nothing but love at the church i ended up going to in SC and the one ive found here in Kansas. And while the truth may hurt, our God doesnt ask much of us. If we turn our backs to Him, its kind of strange to think he's going to be there. Its not up to Him to prove anything to us, Hes God and we're not. But if we take that step to Him, He will take two back to us. This has been my experience.

I do believe in Redemption. And I do believe in Salvation. And I do believe God forgives us if we ask for it. Bad things do happen and I have no clue why. Only God does. But even in the worst of tragedies good comes out of it. Its been true in my life.

And it'll be true for those who have suffered in Christ. God doesnt send people to Hell, He provides a way out of Hell.

I dont make it so. God does.

You can reject that if you want. I dont force anything on you. And you know what, God doesnt force it on you either.

Ive tried to make that clear in all my posts. This isnt a mall parking lot and im not getting into your grill. You are reading this of your own will.

I do not call you names. I have respect for you.

This is pretty much what I have to say about it.

 

[grogan2767]

I can't type anything long right now.

BUT, first I apologize for insulting you.

Christianity is rather easily proven false, and therefore is a form of a lie. What's worse, it is a lie that makes your world view very messed up. It is not your fault.

you wrote>>It was about ************. And he didnt care if i wore a suit or jeans and a sweatshirt.

However, this same ************ created Hell, and believes you belonged there, until you submitted to belief in Him.

You wrote>> that God doesn;t send people to Hell.

That is totally unbiblical. He created Hell, sentences you to Hell (basically for being born), and does not leave any convincing evidense to really believe in HIm.

You mention relatinship with Christ. I thought I had that. All religions have the same sort of absoltuely convinced believers, etc. Ever ask a Mormon about the burning busom of their belief? JW's think YOU are going to HELL and they are certain. Muslims KILL themselves for Allah. It's all Bull ****.

I am actually tryin to help you. I was were you are. You need to come out.

Why is it a lie, because you didnt agree with Gods methods? And when I say that, im not conceding the conclusions that you have made from those verses, as I believe you have left out most of the story. I just want to get the gist of what made you change your mind after 20 years.
You see, ironically, I came to Christianity from the opposite direction. Much of my experience growing up Jewish was of people telling God what to do, instead of believing that we are here to serve His needs, not the other way around. If God has a plan and God has a method, its not my place to say hes wrong or doesnt exist because I disagree.

And I do agree with you that it shouldnt be that half the Christians are out there obsessing on whether they are being "good enough". Im wondering what denomination your experience was. My first Church experience after being Saved was in a traditional, conservative, Baptist Church in South Carolina. Suit and Ties. People just standing there while the choir sang. No personal relationship with ************. Everybody being shamed into being "obediant enough" to the church. I knew that wasnt why I was Saved. I found my walk after watching the Passion of the Christ and being reminded who it was I was following, not some pastor, not some church. It was about ************. And he didnt care if i wore a suit or jeans and a sweatshirt. And secondly I started worshiping at Black Churches. A friend of mine invited me to Friday night revival service. 2 Black churches combined in East Florence, SC. I was the only white guy out of 200 people, people were falling out all around me, the praising was through the roof, and I never felt so safe and so free in my life. From then on I sought out non-denominational praising churches where the focus will always be on Jesus and on the Bible and on praising and worship.

I have found nothing but love at the church i ended up going to in SC and the one ive found here in Kansas. And while the truth may hurt, our God doesnt ask much of us. If we turn our backs to Him, its kind of strange to think he's going to be there. Its not up to Him to prove anything to us, Hes God and we're not. But if we take that step to Him, He will take two back to us. This has been my experience.

I do believe in Redemption. And I do believe in Salvation. And I do believe God forgives us if we ask for it. Bad things do happen and I have no clue why. Only God does. But even in the worst of tragedies good comes out of it. Its been true in my life.

And it'll be true for those who have suffered in Christ. God doesnt send people to Hell, He provides a way out of Hell.

I dont make it so. God does.

You can reject that if you want. I dont force anything on you. And you know what, God doesnt force it on you either.

Ive tried to make that clear in all my posts. This isnt a mall parking lot and im not getting into your grill. You are reading this of your own will.

I do not call you names. I have respect for you.

This is pretty much what I have to say about it.

 

[3 to be 4]

so, what was it? after 22 years, i mean. something must have changed. what?

 

[grogan2767]

>>Here's the bottom line fact. People who get "saved" fall in love with "Jesus" way before they know what is really in the Bible. They are SO convinced, that by the time the read the horrors commited by this "god", they first can't beleive it, but then later begin to accept redilculous Chistian defenses. (I.e. Sin is SOOO horrible that God HAS to torture us for ALL evertinity, He has no choice because we were so awful biting that apple, and getting born and all.)

I wrote the above earlier. This kind of explains it some. All Christians KNOW that the attrocities in the Bible are simply immoral. They just can't really bear it. It's painful, and it is painful for you. I actually sympathize with you. I mean it, I'm not being a jerk. Most sincere CHristians also secretly feel pain over the concept of Hell. I always knew it was unfair. Why should my brother go to Hell? Bull ****!

I was completley sold on the whole thing. I actually hope you come to your senses. It is bad for you. Do you have family? Are they all "saved" or they going to Hell.

The Bible is demonstrably false if you claim it to be literal history. Noah's ark didn;t happen dude.

The biggest srgument Christians have, relationship with Christ, falls way short for reasons I have already explained. (All other religions have fanatics who believe they are hearing for God, prayers being answered, utterly convinced JWs, Mormons. Why are you any differnet from them? Why WAS I any different?)

so, what was it? after 22 years, i mean. something must have changed. what?

 

[Tunescribe]

If you would like to have a reasonable conversation about it I would be happy to continue.

Beware Grogan2767, this poor guy is an addict of the highest order and is definitely NOT interested in reasonable give-and-take discourse. He IS interested in reinforcing himself and cajoling others into his web, however. I wish you luck, you seem to have a brain and a sense of personal responsibility, unlike our brainwashed friend here.

 

[3 to be 4]

>>Here's the bottom line fact. People who get "saved" fall in love with "Jesus" way before they know what is really in the Bible. They are SO convinced, that by the time the read the horrors commited by this "god", they first can't beleive it, but then later begin to accept redilculous Chistian defenses. (I.e. Sin is SOOO horrible that God HAS to torture us for ALL evertinity, He has no choice because we were so awful biting that apple, and getting born and all.)

I wrote the above earlier. This kind of explains it some. All Christians KNOW that the attrocities in the Bible are simply immoral. They just can't really bear it. It's painful, and it is painful for you. I actually sympathize with you. I mean it, I'm not being a jerk. Most sincere CHristians also secretly feel pain over the concept of Hell. I always knew it was unfair. Why should my brother go to Hell? Bull ****!

I was completley sold on the whole thing. I actually hope you come to your senses. It is bad for you. Do you have family? Are they all "saved" or they going to Hell.

The Bible is demonstrably false if you claim it to be literal history. Noah's ark didn;t happen dude.

The biggest srgument Christians have, relationship with Christ, falls way short for reasons I have already explained. (All other religions have fanatics who believe they are hearing for God, prayers being answered, utterly convinced JWs, Mormons. Why are you any differnet from them? Why WAS I any different?)

so, it took you 22 years of being a Born Again Christian to read the Bible?

 

[3 to be 4]

Beware Grogan2767, this poor guy is an addict of the highest order and is definitely NOT interested in reasonable give-and-take discourse. He IS interested in reinforcing himself and cajoling others into his web, however. I wish you luck, you seem to have a brain and a sense of personal responsibility, unlike our brainwashed friend here.

oh, so nice to hear from you again as well. Why am I not surprised that Grogan would have allies such as these?

It just validates for me that I have been on to something thats very real.

Jesus loves you guys.

 

[grogan2767]

No, I read the whole Bible in the first year. Was too in love with "Jesus" to admit it was insane at that time. Met a fundy woman and married her. Being married to a devout Christian makes it harder to bail.

Suffered for a long time knowing it is ****.

The other dude called you and addict. That is true. So was I. Why don't you try to answer any of the questions I posed you?
By the way, as a Christian, you are the one making all the amazing claims. The burden of proof is on you.

Come out of the Matrix.

How many of you family are going to Hell?

so, it took you 22 years of being a Born Again Christian to read the Bible?

 

[3 to be 4]

No, I read the whole Bible in the first year. Was too in love with "Jesus" to admit it was insane at that time. Met a fundy woman and married her. Being married to a devout Christian makes it harder to bail.

Suffered for a long time knowing it is ****.

The other dude called you and addict. That is true. So was I. Why don't you try to answer any of the questions I posed you?
By the way, as I Christian, you are the one making all the amazing claims. The burden of proof is on you.

Come out of the Matrix.

How many of you family are going to Hell?

Burden of proof? is this Peoples Court? what questions are you referring to?

None in my immediate family. I am doing what I can to see that none of my extended family does. You see, I love them, and id rather offend them than to sit by and say nothing while eternity faces them.

Thats why i dont worry too much about "winning" this discussion because Jesus victory has already been won, whether I convince anybody else or not.

 

[grogan2767]

Jesus is not real.

There is no Hell.

And yes, the burden of proof is on you. There is no victory in Jesus. You are so typical. "Jesus has already won the victory". Blah Blah Blah. The Bible is true becuase its the "Bible". You have no clue.

What questions have I asked you? I have asked you probably a dozen questions that you have completely ignored. Just like all Christians. Answer one of them!

Are you a Calvinist or an Arminian? You ahve to be one of them if you are a Bible beliving Christian. If you do not know what I am talking about then you are an illiterate Christian.

Burden of proof? is this Peoples Court? what questions are you referring to?

None in my immediate family. I am doing what I can to see that none of my extended family does. You see, I love them, and id rather offend them than to sit by and say nothing while eternity faces them.

Thats why i dont worry too much about "winning" this discussion because Jesus victory has already been won, whether I convince anybody else or not.

 

[3 to be 4]

Jesus is not real.

There is no Hell.

And yes, the burden of proof is on you. There is no victory in Jesus. You are so typical. "Jesus has already won the victory". Blah Blah Blah. The Bible is true becuase its the "Bible". You have no clue.

What questions have I asked you? I have asked you probably a dozen questions that you have completely ignored. Just like all Christians. Answer one of them!

Are you a Calvinist or an Arminian? You ahve to be one of them if you are a Bible beliving Christian. If you do not know what I am talking about then you are an illiterate Christian.

First of all, your tone is getting pretty rude and immature again. Second, There is no burden of proof because i am not on trial here. Third, you present a completly false proposition that it is "one of the other". Because you say so? Im non-denominational. I dont buy into these splits and rules and labels that form the denominations and are totally man made. God extends grace, but man has the self will capabilities to reject or accept. God has provided a way of Salvation, one that is determined by Faith , not in works.

You can disagree, but lets do without the rudeness.

 

[grogan2767]

Calvinsim and Armininianism have nothing to do with denomination. (though some denoms are built around these salvation Philosphies.) ANd yes, if you are a "born again Christian", you do fall into one of those camps whether you think so or not. And yes, they are of critical importance whether you admit it or not. They matter a TON.

First of all, your tone is getting pretty rude and immature again. Second, There is no burden of proof because i am not on trial here. Third, you present a completly false proposition that it is "one of the other". Because you say so? Im non-denominational. I dont buy into these splits and rules and labels that form the denominations and are totally man made. God extends grace, but man has the self will capabilities to reject or accept. God has provided a way of Salvation, one that is determined by Faith , not in works.

You can disagree, but lets do without the rudeness.