Hey 3 to be 4....

[AStack75]

I've only skimmed through your posts which are almost all religious in nature. Question... I mean this seriously and am not disparaging your beliefs. I was never brought up religiously. I generally don't believe there is a God or an afterlife. I don't have any problems with people who do. Although I do believe that more people have died in the name of God, Allah, or whoever than for any other reason.

I may be incorrect in what I'm saying, but from my limited knowledge of the Bible... I could live a perfect life (feed the hungry, help the homeless, help old ladys cross the street, etc.) but if I don't get baptized or if I don't believe in God....I am going to Hell when I die. Granted, I don't believe in a Heaven or a Hell, but lets assume I am wrong and there is...based on what I just said, I am going to Hell when I die.

Assuming what I just said is correct... That's what I don't understand. Jesus loves everyone, but if you don't believe in him, you will go to Hell. So me...the guy who helps old ladys cross the street is sentenced to a life of eternal damnation while the rapist/murderer who discovers Jesus while he is in prison goes to Heaven.

Doesn't make sense to me. I'm sure you must have heard this question before so I'm curious on your thoughts.

 

[3 to be 4]

I've only skimmed through your posts which are almost all religious in nature. Question... I mean this seriously and am not disparaging your beliefs. I was never brought up religiously. I generally don't believe there is a God or an afterlife. I don't have any problems with people who do. Although I do believe that more people have died in the name of God, Allah, or whoever than for any other reason.

I may be incorrect in what I'm saying, but from my limited knowledge of the Bible... I could live a perfect life (feed the hungry, help the homeless, help old ladys cross the street, etc.) but if I don't get baptized or if I don't believe in God....I am going to Hell when I die. Granted, I don't believe in a Heaven or a Hell, but lets assume I am wrong and there is...based on what I just said, I am going to Hell when I die.

Assuming what I just said is correct... That's what I don't understand. Jesus loves everyone, but if you don't believe in him, you will go to Hell. So me...the guy who helps old ladys cross the street is sentenced to a life of eternal damnation while the rapist/murderer who discovers Jesus while he is in prison goes to Heaven.

Doesn't make sense to me. I'm sure you must have heard this question before so I'm curious on your thoughts.

excellent question! That is the kind of thoughtful dialogue I thought we could all have. Because its a very,very valid point made my many people.

Baptism is a sign of obediance, a public proclamation of your acceptance of ************. It is not how you are Saved. Its done BECAUSE you are Saved.

Salvation comes from Repentence of our sins, Acceptance that ************ died on the cross for our sins, He is the Son of God and our Lord and Savior, and that he raised from the dead 3 days later.

God doesnt send us to Hell. We send ourselves. Through sin we have been seperated from Him. But God loved us enough that he made a way for us to be forgiven of our transgressions.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Our sin had condemned us already to be seperated from Him. And eternity without God is eternity spent with the enemy of God. God sent his Son to be the sacrifice, fulfilling the prophesies in the Old Testament. Now there is a way to have forgiveness and a place with God in Heaven.

But man quite often says "Why should I do that?" Well, my answer would be, for one, He's God, and I'm not, and He said this is the way.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

He's good enough to have mercy on us, and I'm grateful enough to listen to the instruction.

As far as justice.......

this life is like a blink of an eye, here today, gone tomorrow.

Everyone will answer to God, He knows our hearts and He knows everything we've done. We dont have to worry about justice here on earth, He is the final judge.

Good works cannot get us into Heaven. Nor can the bad keep us out. We can still be forgiven if we sincerely Accept Christ into our hearts. I was thinking about this the other day remembering the movie "Dead Man Walking"
At the time i first saw I thought the real drama was whether or not he'd be executed. Now I know, if the filmakers themselves dont, that the real drama was how he was led to Salvation at the end. For we must set our minds on things above, not on the world. Bad people must take responsibility for their crimes, and Seans Penn character was rightly executed. But his repentance and acceptance of Christ brought Him Salvation. At least i think thats what happened in the movie, i'll have to watch it again.

But if our works determined our eternity, what did Christ die for?

Jesus does loves us and He wants the best for us. If we take the first step toward Him, He will take two to us. Because God loves us He gave us a way to eternity with Him in Heaven. If we reject that way, who is responsible for where we spend eternity.

Its like the old joke, the flood waters are coming and guy is waiting on the roof. a helicopter comes to save him and he waves it off "thats ok, God is going to save me". then a boat comes and he says "thats ok, God is coming to save me" he ends up drowning. When he gets to heaven he's really mad at God. "What happened, i thought you'd save me!!" God answers " I sent a helicopter, i sent a boat...."

You see, we have been given the way. And man in his pride and ego says to God, "No, I dont like that way" We are then worshipping ourselves and not realizing that God is God, and we are not.

anyway, others certainly can say it better than I can. And a good bible based Pastor and your own thorough reading of scripture would answer your question much better than I.

But I hope I was able to answer your question. And I appreciate you asking it Astack75.

Have a blessed day everybody

 

[shmessy]

Translation of the previous, loooooonnnng post:

The old lady helper gets eternal damnation and the murderer gets heaven.

 

[Nikki]

Another prespective.........from a Roman Catholic.........

1.Limbo - temporary status of the souls of good persons who died before the Resurrection of Jesus and the permanent status of the unbaptized who die in infancy, without having committed any personal sins, but without having been freed from original sin.

If heaven is a state of happiness and a union with God, and hell is a state of torture and a separation from God, then limbo is a neutral state, in which souls are denied the beatific vision, but saved from the torment of hell.

2. Purgatory: refers to a doctrine in the Roman Catholic Church, which basically says that those who die in a state of grace undergo a purification in order to achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven. This purification of the elect is entirely different from the punishment of the damned in hell.

Catholics and many Eastern Orthodox Christians consider it to be a fact of great beauty that God provides a means of purification after death, considering it "a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from sins".

3. Damnation to Hell: is the punishment of God for persons with unredeemed sin. Damnation can be a motivator for conversions to Christianity.

One conception is of eternal suffering and denial of entrance to heaven, often symbolized in the Bible as burning and fire.

Another conception, derived from the scripture about Gehenna is simply that people will be discarded (burned), as being unworthy of preservation by God.


WARNING........MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION TO FOLLOW:

However, I would argue to say that since "Heaven" is considered to be life with God after death, and Hell is the torture of not being with God after death, if one does not belive in God or Jesus, than one could certainly die with a lifetime of sins and since they do not believe in God, hence there is no Heaven or Hell for that person.

 

[3 to be 4]

Another prespective.........from a Roman Catholic.........

1.Limbo - temporary status of the souls of good persons who died before the Resurrection of Jesus and the permanent status of the unbaptized who die in infancy, without having committed any personal sins, but without having been freed from original sin.

If heaven is a state of happiness and a union with God, and hell is a state of torture and a separation from God, then limbo is a neutral state, in which souls are denied the beatific vision, but saved from the torment of hell.

2. Purgatory: refers to a doctrine in the Roman Catholic Church, which basically says that those who die in a state of grace undergo a purification in order to achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven. This purification of the elect is entirely different from the punishment of the damned in hell.

Catholics and many Eastern Orthodox Christians consider it to be a fact of great beauty that God provides a means of purification after death, considering it "a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from sins".

3. Damnation to Hell: is the punishment of God for persons with unredeemed sin. Damnation can be a motivator for conversions to Christianity.

One conception is of eternal suffering and denial of entrance to heaven, often symbolized in the Bible as burning and fire.

Another conception, derived from the scripture about Gehenna is simply that people will be discarded (burned), as being unworthy of preservation by God.


WARNING........MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION TO FOLLOW:

However, I would argue to say that since "Heaven" is considered to be life with God after death, and Hell is the torture of not being with God after death, if one does not belive in God or Jesus, than one could certainly die with a lifetime of sins and since they do not believe in God, hence there is no Heaven or Hell for that person.

Thank you for that rundown, Nikki. I appreciate that perspective and its the type of dialogue, once again, I originally sought.
I am curious about a couple of things and im asking, not to be a wise guy, but because I want to get a Catholics perspective on this so I can learn and grow.
About Purgatory, where does that concept come from? I havent found it in the Bible, and It seems to negate the sacrifice Jesus made on the Cross. I mean, what was the point of his death then, if the sins werent washed away by Faith?
And in the Bible there are many places where it says justification is by Faith, but I havent found where Salvation is dependant on Baptism. Baptism, to what I read, is an act of obediance.
And why are children condemned if they havent been baptised yet? It is my understanding from scripture that Jesus loves children and if one is not of age of reason, He doesnt punish for that.

again, this is to spur on the dialogue and to learn. I ask in respect and in a humble attempt to grow in understanding of the Catholic interpretations.

 

[Nikki]

You are correct in the fact that the word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture. Yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word.

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45).

Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory.

In John, iii, He declares: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he can not enter into the kingdom of God." Christ makes no exception to this law and it is therefore general in its application, embracing both adults and infants. It is consequently not merely a necessity of precept but also a necessity of means.

In Catholic teaching, baptism plays an essential role in salvation. This teaching dates back to the teachings and practices of first century Christians, and the connection between salvation and baptism was not, on the whole, an item of major dispute until Martin Luther's teachings regarding grace. The Church teaches that "baptism is necessary for salvation" (Catechism, 1257) and entry into heaven; and therefore, a person who knowledgeably, willfully and unrepentantly rejects baptism has no hope of salvation. Three forms of baptism are acknowledged by the Church. Baptism by water refers to the traditional baptism where the individual is immersed or infused with water in the name of the Trinity.

Catholics believe that baptism removes original sin and causes an ontological change in the baptized person--changing him from a creature to a "child of God." It is how a person is reborn or 'born again.'

 

[3 to be 4]

You are correct in the fact that the word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture. Yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word.

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45).

Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory.

In John, iii, He declares: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he can not enter into the kingdom of God." Christ makes no exception to this law and it is therefore general in its application, embracing both adults and infants. It is consequently not merely a necessity of precept but also a necessity of means.

In Catholic teaching, baptism plays an essential role in salvation. This teaching dates back to the teachings and practices of first century Christians, and the connection between salvation and baptism was not, on the whole, an item of major dispute until Martin Luther's teachings regarding grace. The Church teaches that "baptism is necessary for salvation" (Catechism, 1257) and entry into heaven; and therefore, a person who knowledgeably, willfully and unrepentantly rejects baptism has no hope of salvation. Three forms of baptism are acknowledged by the Church. Baptism by water refers to the traditional baptism where the individual is immersed or infused with water in the name of the Trinity.

Catholics believe that baptism removes original sin and causes an ontological change in the baptized person--changing him from a creature to a "child of God." It is how a person is reborn or 'born again.'

wow. awesome stuff. Thank you. You've given me plenty to study on. Suffice to say, Im grateful that you are a sister in Christ, and I appeciate the thoughfulness of your answers. My responses in no way challenges your belief, but is simply an explanation of my own interpretation of the verses you present. And I welcome any feedback you have to them.

"Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins."

Here "the age to come" to what ive been taught, is the age when Christ returns and Heaven and Earth become one.

"He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15)."

again, ive been taught that although there is no suffering, per say, in Heaven, there are rewards in Heaven for the life we've lived. We do have to answer for how we lead our lives, raised our children etc. the loss we suffer is the pain of being invited to the house and maybe not getting such a great seat in the house. We are saved, we are in Heaven, but our rewards in Heaven may be less than someone more righteous than ourselves. But i admit, I will study on this because the "fire" reference is very interesting. It may be an interpretation issue, so i will read up on it. Thanks.

"In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45).

Again, im thinking this idea of resurrection was very literal. Jesus raised people from the dead. When He returns we are taught the dead in Christ will be raised to Heaven. Again, more reading and learning on this topic will be forthcoming. Thank you

In John, iii, He declares: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he can not enter into the kingdom of God."

again, interpretation- interpretation. Jesus talked of never "being thirsty again", "drinking from the well" He used the metaphor of water when referring to himself often. My Bible teachings refer to the water and Holy Ghost as being born again to Jesus and Baptism of the Holy Spirit, opening your heart and accepting Christ and accepting the holy spirit.

Nikki, im impressed by your explanations. To me, im not going to spend a lot of time trying to change the viewpoints of people who are already In Christ and have Salvation. I dont believe its what the Lord wants me to use my time for.

My only issue with you was on a subject thats already been addressed and it appears we've moved on from. Please accept my apologies for my part in that and I wish you well on your journeys.

Thank you again for your thoughful responses. Im always very fired up by this kind discussion regarding scripture and the wishes our Lord ************.

 

[AStack75]

Jesus F---ing Christ. That game was pathetic. I'll read your posts tomorrow.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Jesus F---ing Christ. That game was pathetic. I'll read your posts tomorrow.

Well that's probably not going to win you any brownie points on God's bell curve - if indeed he has one.

Nikki - I'm very impressed with your ability to cite specifics of my general knowledge of Catholic teachings (having been raised Catholic but never having anyone within the Church ever really do a good job explaining things)

Not that you fully agree with the interpretations that you explained of course... and as mentioned in one of the other threads, the Popes have also elaborated on their views of the prospect of salvation for other religions as well

3tobe... I noticed you've expressed your own "interpretations" of Bible passages as well - thanks and Congratulations for acknowledging that so much IS interpretation

I think it's no accident that we've been left with an "instruction manual" that requires us to contemplate and interpret, but that's probably another tangent

Its also of great interest to me that in offering all these "interpretations" we have so many people saying things like "Well, MY God wouldn't stand for this or that..."

... which of course implies that God somehow morphs to coincide with our personal beliefs and interpretations of what He is. This of course is just ludicrious... God is what God is... regardless of what any of think he should be (and in deference to our agnostic/athiest readrs, if indeed there is a God).

All that being said, I don't know what God is or isn't any more than the rest of you, so I just try to apply the best of the teachings of all faiths to live as "good" a life as I can.

 

[CPF]

Now Nikki, that is some good stuff, I was wondering why you didn't respond to my post to you in the other thread but I would love to go over some of the things you have cited in this one, if you don't mind of course. Right now though, I need to get some sleep, I'll try to weigh in with some thoughts tommorrow