Lots of believers on this team...

[shmessy]

Deuteronomy 23:2 No one born of a forbidden union may enter the assembly of the Lord. Even to the tenth generation, none of his descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord.

Why is the CHILD the one punished?

Just asking.

 

[Christiancat]

Why is the CHILD the one punished?

Just asking.

Here's a site that may help explain that verse in Deuteronomy and some others a little bit better so you can more easily understand it.

DEUTERONOMY 23

 

[chicowalker]

You do know that the 'golden rule' is from Christ, right? And what He says preceding it is that you shall love your God with all your heart and soul and mind and strength?

The golden rule, in one form or another, is found in many philosophies and religions, including Christianity.

The beauty of it is that one's god, or lack thereof, is irrelevant to that very simple teaching.

 

[chicowalker]

For those of the Catholic/Christian faith murder, stealing, sleeping with a man wife etc. are considered sins. From my understanding people who don't subscribe to the beliefs of the Catholic/Christian Church just consider murder/ sleeping with a Man's wife wrong for the reasons you stated Chicowalker.

More info on Sin according to the Catholic Church

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Sin

Yes, I understand that -- re sins. My point was in response to oldrover's comment, to point out that ethics and morality don't have to have anything to do with the concept of sin.

 

[oldrover]

Truth, Rover.

The truth is that the God of the Old Testament is the God of the New Testament.

 

[oldrover]

Yes, I understand that -- re sins. My point was in response to oldrover's comment, to point out that ethics and morality don't have to have anything to do with the concept of sin.

Yes... when man worships himself as the ultimate arbiter, he discards things he does not understand or wish to obey.

 

[chicowalker]

Yes... when man worships himself as the ultimate arbiter, he discards things he does not understand or wish to obey.

I guess that's the point of view of some folks who believe in god, unfortunately -- you think something must be worshiped.

Treating people right isn't that complicated, though. If you need a god or religion to do it, then it's a good thing you have found a religion / god to worship. The alternative would probably have a bad outcome for you and those around you.

As for discarding things we don't understand, that's actually one thing that put me off from religion (catholic church upbringing). There was very little desire to understand anything, including the church's teachings. Something doesn't fit? "We can't know god's plan." And let's not get into the folks who discard any real morality because they think or pretend they're acting in god's name.

Fortunately, all religious people aren't like that. But I'm confident that inquisitiveness and a desire to understand our world and our place in it are at as common among atheists as among the religious.

 

[oldrover]

Socrates said it is a wise man who realizes he knows nothing. That's me. I know I didn't create the moon and stars and earth and quantum physics and calculus and DNA. And I respect and, yes, worship, the Intellect who did.

 

[shmessy]

Here's a site that may help explain that verse in Deuteronomy and some others a little bit better so you can more easily understand it.

DEUTERONOMY 23

Here is the phrase you linked to:

"NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: DEUTERONOMY 23:1-6
1"No one who is emasculated or has his male organ cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord. 2No one of illegitimate birth shall enter the assembly of the Lord; none of his descendants, even to the tenth generation, shall enter the assembly of the Lord. 3No Ammonite or Moabite shall enter the assembly of the Lord; none of their descendants, even to the tenth generation, shall ever enter the assembly of the Lord, 4because they did not meet you with food and water on the way when you came out of Egypt, and because they hired against you Balaam the son of Beor from Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse you. 5Nevertheless, the Lord your God was not willing to listen to Balaam, but the Lord your God turned the curse into a blessing for you because the Lord your God loves you. 6You shall never seek their peace or their prosperity all your days."




Why is the onus on the CHILD, not the adulterer?


I read through that link and all the definitions and cannot find the answer there to my clear question.

Do you have any?

 

[oldrover]

Ultimately? This is what Jews and Christians believe to be God's Word, the creator of the universe. He has not given us an explanation why.

If you say, that's not fair, I can say, is it fair for some to be born in the US and some to be born in Afghanistan? Is it fair for some to be born healthy and others sick? Do I know all the answers, or do I trust in Someone Else?

The choice is yours. Believe what you will.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

I guess that's the point of view of some folks who believe in god, unfortunately -- you think something must be worshiped.

Treating people right isn't that complicated, though. If you need a god or religion to do it, then it's a good thing you have found a religion / god to worship. The alternative would probably have a bad outcome for you and those around you.

As for discarding things we don't understand, that's actually one thing that put me off from religion (catholic church upbringing). There was very little desire to understand anything, including the church's teachings. Something doesn't fit? "We can't know god's plan." And let's not get into the folks who discard any real morality because they think or pretend they're acting in god's name.

Fortunately, all religious people aren't like that. But I'm confident that inquisitiveness and a desire to understand our world and our place in it are at as common among atheists as among the religious.

The problem comes when you decide what "treating people right" means.

I have a feeling you'd be just fine with someone having a abortion while I know that abortion kills a human being.

Also, I'm sure you'd be ok with "consenting adults" practicing just about any sexual "desire" they might want to experience, no?

So who decides what's right and what's wrong? The majority? The individual?
Are there no unalienable rights that are endowed to us by our creator?

If there is no creator, why even bother with "right and wrong"? Look at nature.....the strong survive. The weak perish.

 

[everlong]

I guess that's the point of view of some folks who believe in god, unfortunately -- you think something must be worshiped.

Not just that something must be worshiped that it must be worshiped by their rules or it doesn't count.

 

[chicowalker]

Socrates said it is a wise man who realizes he knows nothing. That's me. I know I didn't create the moon and stars and earth and quantum physics and calculus and DNA. And I respect and, yes, worship, the Intellect who did.

If you truly realized that, you would also realize that you don't know anything about creation, and that whatever you worship is just a guess.

 

[chicowalker]

The problem comes when you decide what "treating people right" means.

I have a feeling you'd be just fine with someone having a abortion while I know that abortion kills a human being.

Also, I'm sure you'd be ok with "consenting adults" practicing just about any sexual "desire" they might want to experience, no?

So who decides what's right and what's wrong? The majority? The individual?
Are there no unalienable rights that are endowed to us by our creator?

If there is no creator, why even bother with right and wrong? Look at nature.....the strong survive. The weak perish.

I don't take a simplistic view toward abortion, because unlike extremists on either side, I don't pretend to know when life begins and I don't pretend that all that matters is the woman's body or will.

Sexual desire? Between consenting adults, why would I care to judge? But that has nothing to do with treating people right.

Unalienable rights? Actually, rights are a big part of what I believe in -- not a book that other men wrote supposedly telling us what god's words were.

And why bother? Let me ask you -- is the only reason you try to be a decent person because of the words in a book? Really?

Right v wrong -- again... start with the golden rule.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

I don't take a simplistic view toward abortion, because unlike extremists on either side, I don't pretend to know when life begins and I don't pretend that all that matters is the woman's body or will.

Sexual desire? Between consenting adults, why would I care to judge? But that has nothing to do with treating people right.

Unalienable rights? Actually, rights are a big part of what I believe in -- not a book that other men wrote supposedly telling us what god's words were.

And why bother? Let me ask you -- is the only reason you try to be a decent person because of the words in a book? Really?

Right v wrong -- again... start with the golden rule.

But again, why the "golden rule"? Because you say so? So the individual decides right and wrong? Or because a group of people say so?
Who decides?

Our founding fathers felt that our "creator" endowed us with certain unalienable rights. If they were wrong and there is no creator why couldn't they be just as wrong about certain unalienable rights?

Again if there is no God, and we are just part of Nature then why would the golden rule even apply. In nature there is no "golden rule" , there is suvival of fittest. Why would we be any different?

 

[oldrover]

If you truly realized that, you would also realize that you don't know anything about creation, and that whatever you worship is just a guess.

It's an educated guess. Maybe I'm wrong. I can admit I could be wrong. Can you?

 

[chicowalker]

But again, why the "golden rule"? Because you say so? So the individual decides right and wrong? Or because a group of people say so?
Who decides?

Our founding fathers felt that our "creator" endowed us with certain unalienable rights. If they were wrong and there is no creator why couldn't they be just as wrong about certain unalienable rights?

Again if there is no God, and we are just part of Nature then why would the golden rule even apply. In nature there is no "golden rule" , there is suvival of fittest. Why would we be any different?

So are you saying the only reason you try to be a decent person is because of the words of the bible and because you'd like to go to heaven?

if either of those were (theoretically, obviously) demonstrated to you to be false, you would just go on a rampage, killing, stealing, raping to your heart's desire?

By the way, if we're going to talk about right and wrong, groups v individuals, the founding fathers, etc., we should probably be a bit more clear about what we're discussing. Is it ethics / morality or the law, for example? (Because while there is overlap, the two are different)

 

[chicowalker]

It's an educated guess. Maybe I'm wrong. I can admit I could be wrong. Can you?

Quite easily. I have no idea how things came to be. I think those questions, while worth pondering from time to time, are basically beyond us -- like the concept of infinity.

 

[oldrover]

Cool. Good night, my brother.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

So are you saying the only reason you try to be a decent person is because of the words of the bible and because you'd like to go to heaven?

if either of those were (theoretically, obviously) demonstrated to you to be false, you would just go on a rampage, killing, stealing, raping to your heart's desire?

By the way, if we're going to talk about right and wrong, groups v individuals, the founding fathers, etc., we should probably be a bit more clear about what we're discussing. Is it ethics / morality or the law, for example? (Because while there is overlap, the two are different)

Boy, you just refuse to answer any questions without a question....lol.

Right and wrong is a morality issue which can then lead to "law" or even lawlessness. (see look.......no question in my answer)

Let me try this one more time and see if I can get an answer from you that isn't a question:

Who decides what is right and what is wrong? Individuals, groups, who?