The "pass-rushing OLB" myth

[RhodyPatriot]

Don't you know Belichick is the only one who knows football in this league. He knows football so much he passed on matthews and woodley. He knows football so much he probably wouldn't take harrison, dumerville and freeney because they're too small to play in his all great defense. But the great tully banter-cain, rob nincovich and jermaine cunningham can start for him.
Once again, BB is a great coach, but a average and overrated GM.

On the money!

 

[jukes]

So adding a top rated corner doesnt improve the pass rush? lol yea we passed on all those players and we're still a top team every single year to win it? i dont understand the fuss BB has a system and it seems to work.

 

[fair catch fryar]

WTF. Who exactly were the Pats monster pass-rushers from the '03-'04 defenses? Hey, I'm no longer frustrated by it, but am still perplexed why BB didn't target an OLB/DE that could apply some pressure, but people seem to forget the biggest factor in every Patriot playoff loss since '07. The D got long in the tooth and could no longer execute the way BB expects. He has been injecting the defense with youth. The playoff loss to the Jets can be pinned on several key plays where inexperience and youth did not execute properly. This year I've accepted the fact that he's spreading the wealth to the offensive side with the addition of a big, physical DB which I am very excited about.

 

[jukes]

cant say he didnt draft an olb!

 

[Big-T]

The Jets have been the number 1 defense these last 2 years and have an exceptional defense coached by Ryan who happens to be a very good defensive coach.

Their front 3 is very underrated even without Jenkins. David Harris,Bart Scott are studs. Cromartie is a pro bowler who even though flawed is a good cover corner. Revis also happens to be by far the best cornerback in the NFL and a perennial defensive player of the year candidate.

They are far more talented on defense than we are.

Wilfork,McCourty and Mayo are our only legit pro bowl caliber "impact" defenders.

During the only game that mattered....they constantly pressured Brady and had our receivers locked down and dared us to run at them(something that we had trouble with and being left in 3rd and long situations.)

After the draft it's seems alot of people are just hoping on Warren,Bodden returning to their high level of play after missing a year and that our young guys can make big strides. I hope that works out for us.

The point was "every top defense has an elite pass rusher" who's the elite pass rusher for the Jets? They don't have one, they rely on the overall talent and scheme to get pressure, not one player earmarked as the "pass rusher".

The Jets are the example to follow on that side of the ball, you don't need the likes of Matthews on your team if you couple a very good scheme with talented players.

So, in my opinion, this season (hopefully we get one) the Patriots should go with more man coverage (the CB's are good enough to do it) and the front 7 show more stunts & moves when they blitz, double A gap blitzing with Mayo & Spikes could be VERY successful with Vince on the nose as an simple example of a way to get pressure without the elite pass rushing OLB.

 

[jukes]

the best kind of pressure is the one thats right up the middle, and also can you honestly say there is a TOP defense in the whole nfl that doesnt have some sort of weakness?

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

The Jets have been the number 1 defense these last 2 years and have an exceptional defense coached by Ryan who happens to be a very good defensive coach.

Their front 3 is very underrated even without Jenkins. David Harris,Bart Scott are studs. Cromartie is a pro bowler who even though flawed is a good cover corner. Revis also happens to be by far the best cornerback in the NFL and a perennial defensive player of the year candidate.

They are far more talented on defense than we are.

Wilfork,McCourty and Mayo are our only legit pro bowl caliber "impact" defenders.

During the only game that mattered....they constantly pressured Brady and had our receivers locked down and dared us to run at them(something that we had trouble with and being left in 3rd and long situations.)

After the draft it's seems alot of people are just hoping on Warren,Bodden returning to their high level of play after missing a year and that our young guys can make big strides. I hope that works out for us.

The mental disease continues. History shows that sustained reality will never unconvince people committed to really stupid ideas.


.....and if you watched the draft this weekend the analysts spent the weekend talking about how the Jets didn't have a "pass rusher"...

The Jets have a better secondary. With 7/8 in coverage they dared us to run. We didn't.

The Steelers did and won.

We just drafted two more RB's. Solution drafted.

If a pass rusher really mattered, Dallas would be #1 with Ware

Pittsburgh's defense wouldn't completely suck without Polamalu

Matthews wouldn't need untouched sacks (thanx secondary) to get stats.

This is a QB driven, you can never have too many good CB's league. BB and Rexy (to his credit) realize this.

Your "pass rusher" and pass rush will compliment and integrate.

The won area I would like us to "copycat" is the Giants and have four Dline that can get pressure. With Wright/Pryor/ T Warren, we have a good base.

Interesting how the pass rusher psychos will never realize that our best pass rushers were not available for the playoffs.

Now if we could only get to what should be expected of a unit comprised of rookies and second year players........

 

[Haley]

It seems to me that the pass-rushing OLB strategy is not so much a myth as a strategy some teams use to win. It is necessary for certain teams and you can't argue with the successes they have had. However, the question here is whether or not the pass-rushing OLB is required on every team build.

BB seems to have good success without a star rusher. We did pretty well last year without one. With the improvements on the secondary, perhaps it will be enough perhaps not. But I think it is a mistake to say "since pass rush is needed in the strategy used by team XYZ it is needed for us as well". That logic doesn't hold, they have a different team and a different strategy.

I guess my point is, these comments stating that a certain team can't win without a pass rush has no relevance. The question is only this: do the Patriots need a star pass rusher for their defensive strategy to work. My take on it is, given our success last year, it didn't seem like we "needed" it. But it certainly wouldn't hurt!

 

[Observer]

The biggest defensive reason for our losses has been not being able to stop the pass, even against rookies and supposedly poor QBs. Dowling should help out on this.

The biggest offensive reason for our not winning has been high dependence on TB coupled with the o-line being sub par against top flight defensive lines. Hope Solder and Cannon help with this problem. That should make the team better.

I think we should have done some more about the first problem rather than trading out of picks/picking up running backs. I hope that BB is going to do something about it in FA and I believe that he will, although recently he seems to have shied away from that approach. It is a glaring weakness and it would be wild to think that BB doesn't see it that way. If we continue to ignore it, I am afraid we will perennially be two years away from the superbowl.

 

[upstater1]

Hey why not just eliminate the position entirely??

The great myth on this board is the genius of Bill Belichick.

Richard Seymour for Nate Solder. OUCH!
BTW didn't Belichick have the option of taking the Raiders 1st from last year but deferred to the much weaker draft class (so say the Chickians NOW) this year?? OUCH Again!

Man, how wrong can you possibly be in a such a short post?

First, 1 year of Seymour for potentially 10 years of top caliber LT. You wouldn't make that trade?

Second, Belichick didn't defer on the offer of a Raiders first last year. Where are you getting your info from?

 

[randomk1]

The point was "every top defense has an elite pass rusher" who's the elite pass rusher for the Jets? They don't have one, they rely on the overall talent and scheme to get pressure, not one player earmarked as the "pass rusher".

The Jets are the example to follow on that side of the ball, you don't need the likes of Matthews on your team if you couple a very good scheme with talented players.

So, in my opinion, this season (hopefully we get one) the Patriots should go with more man coverage (the CB's are good enough to do it) and the front 7 show more stunts & moves when they blitz, double A gap blitzing with Mayo & Spikes could be VERY successful with Vince on the nose as an simple example of a way to get pressure without the elite pass rushing OLB.

And i stand by it. The Jets are ****ty example because they are allowed so much flexibility on defense thanks to 1 player. It involves Darrelle Revis completely eliminating any given receiver from the field. The Jets can basically count on the ball not going his way. That is a big luxury that no other team has and the Jets have enough talent on other positions to take advantage of it.

 

[reflexblue]

For all those that say you/we don't mead a pass rush just go back to the game day threads from the last couple of years. You'll probably find yourself complaining about the opposing QB having to much time and not having a pass rush and how the we need one. And that we have to find one. What your doing now is rationalizing

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Man, how wrong can you possibly be in a such a short post?

First, 1 year of Seymour for potentially 10 years of top caliber LT. You wouldn't make that trade?

Second, Belichick didn't defer on the offer of a Raiders first last year. Where are you getting your info from?

stater

Why would you expect correct info to matter to that guy?

In a QB driven league, the second most important position is the franchise left tackle.

Anybody who would rather have a DE over a franchise left tackle is completely clueless.

 

[Big-T]

For all those that say you/we don't mead a pass rush just go back to the game day threads from the last couple of years. You'll probably find yourself complaining about the opposing QB having to much time and not having a pass rush and how the we need one. And that we have to find one. What your doing now is rationalizing

Personally, I've always found it more of a scheme problem, why give receivers big cushions and not get up in their faces and bump them? Why not one gap and run stunts & crosses? Why not send a blitz straight down the middle with Mayo & Spikes crossing and Merriweather or Chung coming straight through one of the gaps created there?

Sure some of it is down to who's on the field, but there's enough talent to generate a pass rush without relying on OLB's all the time. The best way to rush the passer, imo, is confusion, confuse the QB, confuse the O line make them miss assignments, you don't need elite level players to do this.

 

[Ring 6]

And i stand by it. The Jets are ****ty example because they are allowed so much flexibility on defense thanks to 1 player. It involves Darrelle Revis completely eliminating any given receiver from the field. The Jets can basically count on the ball not going his way. That is a big luxury that no other team has and the Jets have enough talent on other positions to take advantage of it.

However, the facts disagree with that. Revis was one of the most thrown at corners in the NFL in 2009. He was successful when thrown at but to say half the field is eliminated is wrong.

 

[Ring 6]

Personally, I've always found it more of a scheme problem, why give receivers big cushions and not get up in their faces and bump them? Why not one gap and run stunts & crosses? Why not send a blitz straight down the middle with Mayo & Spikes crossing and Merriweather or Chung coming straight through one of the gaps created there?

Sure some of it is down to who's on the field, but there's enough talent to generate a pass rush without relying on OLB's all the time. The best way to rush the passer, imo, is confusion, confuse the QB, confuse the O line make them miss assignments, you don't need elite level players to do this.

Because our system wins games.

 

[Big-T]

Because our system wins games.

It's also very frustrating to watch, how many 3rd & longs do the team give up?

The yards per game and sacks I don't care about so much, they're just stats, but 3rd down stops and QB pressures/hurries need to be generated a lot more than the last couple of years.

A way to do this without going down the path of getting 1 elite pass rusher to do it all for you is to create confusion and show multiple and confusing fronts.

 

[Ring 6]

11) I think I'll trust my GM and my head coach more than I trust you armchair evaluators. when my HC and GM has proven to be the best in the business

12) If you question any of the team's moves, you aren't a true fan

sound familiar?

I have never, ever said that, and I challenge you to find me ever saying it.
I have absolutely no problem with questioning any decision, but the posts decree the decision wrong before the player has hit the field, which are based on lacking the majority of the knowledge necessary to make it, and the skill to evaluate it if you had it, is foolhardy.

 

[Ring 6]

It's also very frustrating to watch, how many 3rd & longs do the team give up?

Its more frustrating to allow big plays, points and lose games.

The yards per game and sacks I don't care about so much, they're just stats, but 3rd down stops and QB pressures/hurries need to be generated a lot more than the last couple of years.[/quote]
Those are just stats too.
So are big plays allowed, leads given up, and point allowed, and wins.
You are almost saying that you would rather give up big plays and more points and lose than to play a more effective, more conservative defense that allows some plays along the way.

A way to do this without going down the path of getting 1 elite pass rusher to do it all for you is to create confusion and show multiple and confusing fronts.

That is a very risky approach. You cannot take all of the advantages of a conservative philosophy then say, keep doing that but get crazy aggressive and not lose the strengths you have.

 

[randomk1]

However, the facts disagree with that. Revis was one of the most thrown at corners in the NFL in 2009. He was successful when thrown at but to say half the field is eliminated is wrong.

Umm....you are more likely going to have an incompletion/interception than a completion when throwing to his side. Peyton Manning targeted Wayne just once and for 1 yard during the playoff game if i'm not mistaken. Safe to say it's as close to eliminated as can be.