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Can Pats structure contracts for "window" then crash and burn?


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Ugh, I am being lazy here because I don't want to navigate away from the page... but I think it's 25M for the year, including 20 in a bonus and 5M in salary. Something like that. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I think there's still some "we'll keep VW, X, Y, Z, etc." thinking here. I'd love to see it but I think we're parting ways with some guys. The set-up was: If Revis really is Revis as we think he can be, well... we'll have to make some tough choices (and remember, even going the future dead-money route is a tough choice too). VW was already scheduled to hit a new, higher cap plateau this year, for example. Whenever you get to those points, it's always possible that your guy will test some waters... and if the Pats hope to keep Revis, well, there might not be enough to go around for everybody we want to keep. (Okay, Pats, please prove me wrong.)

I see the OP's point here, that the Pats can think in "window" terms and relax about dead money hits in future years a little... but I agree with those who say that even Brady's not bigger than common sense. So maybe there will be some "window" effect, but the decision to franchise Gost instead of someone more costly makes me think, nope, business as usual.

We'll see. Lots of stuff is beyond me in this realm that our capologists understand much better. And then there's the level that an NFL front office functions at, particularly the Pats' front office. I guess one thing you can always say is the off-season is interesting.

Yeah, I made the headline sensational so it would at least get traffic. Besides Revis and McCourty, I'd like to keep Mayo, hope for a deal with Wilfork, [though if the can get a reasonable younger replacement (few, but maybe there are some on the market this year) even a die hard Wilfork fan realizes a chance to get younger there has to be taken.

There's also Chandler, Hightower and Browner. I could see us trying to stockpile/trade for draft picks again (even though i don't want to trade anybody:D) and maybe plan for a youth movement to save around the time Gronk reups.

I just think they have to look ahead and realize they can plan for the future while trying to lock down this core somehow for a few years.
 
Last year? Just about everyone. Recall the articles comparing Denver's aggressive spending and NE's laissez faire approach? And how bad things got after the KC game?

It is so silly in retrospect but we forget how many people were convinced that Bill wasn't urgent enough about talent acquisition and it was why NE couldn't get over the hump. Plenty of those people were in NE as well.

Just go read the threads from the week after the loss to KC, the milk carton kids were out in force demanding Belichick's head and bemoaning what a horrible team he had constructed and that's not hyperbole it's fact. They were demanding Belichick be fired and wanted Jim Harbaugh or Sean Payton too take over. One poster called Brady "too soft to break," and lamented that he had been reprogrammed as a "male model." Numerous posters claimed Brady was done and wanted him traded. Another well known chicken little claimed Belichick had ruined pretty much every unit on the team. Another poster, from Dartmouth, claimed it was all because Kraft is so cheap. On and on it went, and when one poster (nabwong) tried to say there was still time for them to get it together he was ripped hard for being such an oblivious homer. And now that the season is over and the chicken little and milk carton kids were once again proven completely ignorant they are popping their little heads out again with their familiar cries of impending disaster as Belichick screws up all chance of success in 2015. It never ends, nothing Belichick, Brady, out the Patriots achieve will ever stop the miserable crybabies from their never-ending cries of impending disaster and ruination for the Patriots.
 
I'm torn Ray. I feel the same way about VW. When he's on/healthy, it's over at the A and B gap, whistle to whistle. He goes through times where the opposing O line takes on a bow-like appearance as they try to deal with him. At times. But at 33... at the NT position... you've got a guy you've got to pay for weigh-ins, you've got the Achilles injury to factor in, you've got the philosophy of "better a year early than a year late," and you've got an $8M cap hit the Pats aren't picking up. Another "placeholder"? Only if VW and his agent say so. For the kind of APY the Pats will want to pay him I just don't see it.

Let's look at some recent drafts...
2014 - We hit (or sort of hit) with 3 draft picks, Easley, Halapio (?), Stork. Garapolo shows promise - enough that he actually saw regular season action to push Brady (and it worked.) Not too bad. 2013 - Collins, and that should be enough. The DBs and WRs from that draft include Ryan and Harmon - good enough for some starts - and Boyce and Dobson who really haven't panned out to date. So, still too early, but so far it looks like Collins has to be considered the big haul there. 2012 - Chandler Jones, Dont'a Hightower... and the rest, as the Gilligan's Island theme song puts it.

Now I have to add, the Pats always have most picks toward the bottom of the round, blah blah blah, and some of the DBs are considered terrible here, but are legit NFL starter material... just not when you have McCourty, Browner, and Revis on payroll. But we have to consider the Pats starters as coming in at a rate of about 2 per year. Then maybe we get an UDFA to hit every other year but that might be pushing it (kind of tired to do research but if someone can list the UDFA hits and prove me wrong I am happy to hear it.)

So we don't know what James White brings from '14, we don't know whether we'll get anything out of the receivers in '13, we sort of know what we have in Duron Harmon and Logan Ryan, and it's middling, not world-beating. OTOH, we got our Butler last year (and the 'Hawks got their Matthews,) and nobody knew what the hell would come of either until that Super Bowl.

Put the 2-hits-per-year together with the FA and cap pictures, and you begin to see the importance of keeping the guys who really do shine. We can't count on (re)building through the draft if we overdo it on the FAs. We can't keep everybody, and Revis has given us one of those "nice problems to have." The thinking is that he's a force multiplier - the rest of the team gets better on D when you have a legit shutdown corner. Worth the spend if you find a special one.

So bottom line, I think somebody's got to go, probably more than one. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe we'll plan for the deluge in 2018, and we have our eye on a blue-chip kid at a high school somewhere who we'll target with a high first round pick in 2019 :)... I dunno.

I just think we'll be planning to get value in free agency this year, part ways when we can't agree with an agent about the value that a player brings, and make the room for Revis. If there's a bidding war for him my guess is that we will fold if the money gets crazy - freeing up tons of cap money, but necessitating a lot of hole-plugging staring, but not ending, at CB (see the "force multiplier" effect).

All of this militates in favor of the "push it into the future" model, and I do think we'll do some of that - after all, that's the nature of most multi-year deals. But as I said, we'll be bidding some guys goodbye and good luck too... I don't think the Pats will just load up the future-years credit card. PS - all that said I wonder what Butler does in the off-season :) You hate to say it on the strength of one game, but I would not be heartbroken if he turns into an every-down beast in the future, given the cost of veteran CBs.
 

I have read it and just came back from your web page to check on contracts expiring.

The problem is, I would have trouble evaluating all that in terms of my ability to understand it if i had to do it to keep a job, much less as a leisure time activity.

You are a great resource to me in small bites, but I can't hang with any of the business, accounting types, much less you, when it comes to crunching the numbers to see how they fit in the big picture.

EDIT: I did go over that blog column, but missed your comments in between,especially about Wilfork. I'm going to go over it more thoroughly. I'm not tech or math phobic, but my brain orientation tends to the flight or fight response when I see a lot of numbers amidst the text. Get that "didn't study for the test" feeling.

Of course, you can only go year to year to make the numbers work, I'm just wondering if they have an overall strategy, to bank draft picks some years, go lean at certain positions, then stock up, and even take on some big contracts knowing some cap hits will come down the road.

I know I'm naive on the details. Thanks for your great work, though. I always get information, as well as i understand it, when I have a contract question.
 

By the way, with the release of Wilfork, isn't he now the same as any other free agent on the market? I'd say, with fresh eyes and some other premier DTs on the market, two years of Wilfork at market price (if it's reasonable) might be as good a deal as any other, since i don't see a real premier DT being available for much less than wilfork would be.

I guess it's an even playing field for DTs. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Also, on the Wilfork front. We have to replace him with someone IMO, a rotation won't do it unless they let us use 12 or 13 players.

Branch has size, but i don't think he is a leader and I mean how he'll play with only Siliga or some UDFA as big tackles.

Must have been 20-30 DTs big DEs pass through after Seymour left and none really left a mark. I remember thinking we signed Leonard Cohen once, but it was two guys, one named Leonard, one named Cohen, and neither one stuck around.

Other teams may have signed DTs for short money,but unless they intend to give them to us, we're stuck at market price and availability.
 
I am hardly a capologist, but we did keep that core together a few years and it was infortunate [though we had good seasons ] that those teams had weakness. All I'm saying is, if we strained our resources so it hurt us later, I wouldn't mind since the next three years of Brady is a unique situation. We'll still likely have good teams, hell the 2001 team was voted, and reported on by Joel Buschbaum as the least likely to win the superbowl because of previous overspending.

Sure like to see the maturity of our young linebackes with Revis and McCourty and a good defensive line while bradt is still excellent.

My thread hyperbole, so i guess it's my fault that some people [not you] only read the thread title.
I get your concept but I don't think it is realistic. We were 12 million over the cap before cutting Vince.
So to keep everyone we would have had to free up 12 million plus all the money to sign those players.
Lets say we could cut 10 mill by restructuring Revis. Now we need at least 6 mill for the first year for McCourty, 3 more for Vereen, 3 more for Connolly, 3 more for the draft, and at least 3 more for the other lesser FAs. That is at a minimum 20 mill that must be removed from the cap without taking away any players.
Doing it that way also pushes bigger cap hits into 2016, so the window would only be one year before you had to cut other players.

If they declared every player in the NFL a FA and all 32 teams signed them, there would not be a team that came close to the talent of the 2014 Patriots. IT couldn't be afforded under the cap. When you are that good, as players reach the end of contracts, they command larger ones, and you cannot afford them.
This is why young players must step in and contribute under their cheap contract.
The way the Patriots stay on top is not by setting up a cap Armagedon to pay for players you really cannot afford but by plugging a Harmon in for McCourty, or a Fleming for Connolly, or a Siliga for Wilfork.
It is unrealistic to expect no decline in any position in a capped league, but at the same time you see corresponding improvements like we have seen in players like HT, Collins, Stork, Edelman, etc.
 
Great post, thanks. I wouldn't do that for one year. On the other hand, I'd hate to lose the whole core of the team during this period.

Losing Revis and McCourty would be depressing, but I could see replacing Mccourty. Revis isn't replaceable and is the most expensive.

I don't have the knowledge or patience to imagine restructures or very backloaded deals that could hold the fort for 2-3 years, but i understand we have chandler and hightower coming up.

Even if it's just Revis and putting 11 guys on each side of the field, cutting guys like vereen and amendola isn't going to offset that in the present.
 
The way the Patriots stay on top is not by setting up a cap Armagedon to pay for players you really cannot afford but by plugging a Harmon in for McCourty, or a Fleming for Connolly, or a Siliga for Wilfork.
It is unrealistic to expect no decline in any position in a capped league, but at the same time you see corresponding improvements like we have seen in players like HT, Collins, Stork, Edelman, etc.

I understand that and have been as big an advocate of that approach as anyone. The football takes funny bounces and a mediocre team can win the super Bowl by getting hot and getting some breaks.

Still wondering, if a combination of stockpiling picks by trading forward, and trading for picks and passing the buck a couple years re the cap (if possible) could allow us to have a lean year where we draft and sign less expensive players, somewhere between here and the end of Gronk's contract in 2019.

As you've noted, we've patched positions before after 2004 and remained competitive, though flawed.

I guess the misunderstanding I caused with my thread title is that i want us to spend like idiots on flashy free agents. I'm talking about intelligently planning to spend more or less in certain years with a plan to offset future lean years with picks and developing minimum level street free agents. Like a business does with taxes.

Maybe it can't be done, but I'd be curious if a good team has done it, not the stupid spending I implied with crash and burn.
 
Without Revis and a real wilfork replacement, we're a different team IMO.

As much as I like Mccourty, he's replaceable if the money's too high. I do think, in the short term, that if Wilfork's market number is a few million less than he was contracted he might return.

Don't see how you invent a dominant interior lineman like you could train a veteran cornerback or promote players in waiting. they might end up paying as much, or drafting a low 1st to second rounder who turns out to be a backup type.

Outside of Ted washington,surprisingly Traylor and vince, we figured we could get by with Steve martin, Rick Lyle. 20-30 guys who passed through after Seymour left. A comparable guy in his prime or younger would be ideal, but why would they settle for cheap money?

For every Knighton, there must be 10 big lazy uncommitted guys who settle for being backups, or just wash out. Goes with the territory of being big framed and athletic, unless you are elite.
 
Without Revis and a real wilfork replacement, we're a different team IMO.

As much as I like Mccourty, he's replaceable if the money's too high. I do think, in the short term, that if Wilfork's market number is a few million less than he was contracted he might return.

Don't see how you invent a dominant interior lineman like you could train a veteran cornerback or promote players in waiting. they might end up paying as much, or drafting a low 1st to second rounder who turns out to be a backup type.

Outside of Ted washington,surprisingly Traylor and vince, we figured we could get by with Steve martin, Rick Lyle. 20-30 guys who passed through after Seymour left. A comparable guy in his prime or younger would be ideal, but why would they settle for cheap money?

For every Knighton, there must be 10 big lazy uncommitted guys who settle for being backups, or just wash out. Goes with the territory of being big framed and athletic, unless you are elite.
The thing is that I don't think Vince has been that dominant since 2012. Last season he struggled with getting push on his OL, both in runs, but especially in pass rush. He wasn't near as effective at pushing the pocket as he used to be. He also struggled with disengaging from blocks and making the tackle. In situations where he in his prime would have crushed the RB in the whole he now was a split second to late and the RB was able to slip out of the tackle. He was also single blocked, with success, much more than he has been before. Not to say that he sucked(he didn't), or that he didn't have dominant players(he did). But he was much more average than he used to be.
 
Yes, we need a run-stuffer.

It does not follow that best choice for the team is Wilfork.
 
Also, on the Wilfork front. We have to replace him with someone IMO, a rotation won't do it unless they let us use 12 or 13 players. Branch has size, but i don't think he is a leader and I mean how he'll play with only Siliga or some UDFA as big tackles. Must have been 20-30 DTs big DEs pass through after Seymour left and none really left a mark. I remember thinking we signed Leonard Cohen once, but it was two guys, one named Leonard, one named Cohen, and neither one stuck around. Other teams may have signed DTs for short money,but unless they intend to give them to us, we're stuck at market price and availability.
 
Okay so the quote above is what I'm responding to, and all I wanted to do was bold Leonard Cohen and say "Hallelujah." Maybe a picture of Cohen as he appears today. Humor technology fail - it wouldn't edit.
 
The thing is that I don't think Vince has been that dominant since 2012. Last season he struggled with getting push on his OL, both in runs, but especially in pass rush. He wasn't near as effective at pushing the pocket as he used to be. He also struggled with disengaging from blocks and making the tackle. In situations where he in his prime would have crushed the RB in the whole he now was a split second to late and the RB was able to slip out of the tackle. He was also single blocked, with success, much more than he has been before. Not to say that he sucked(he didn't), or that he didn't have dominant players(he did). But he was much more average than he used to be.

He ripped his achilles tendon. Not sure how you can evaluate without taking that into consideration.

I don't expect the young wilfork, but you have to consider some big tackles that never had his mobility and quickness are dominant due to their size, experience, technique and leverage. If he can play as well and as much as he did while healing that injury, I think he is definitely still amongst a small group who can control two players and the line of scrimmage, though no longer at a pro bowl level.

Look at the Colts. There's just more of a difference between the elite and backups at big DT than other positions which is why BB spent number ones 3 times in a few years there.

If they get a deal on a real big guy DT or Vince gets too much offered elsewhere, you've got to take the younger guy, better deal.

I just think some people really underestimate how hard it is to find that one dominant tackle you can build a rotation around, especially when you pick near the bottom.
 
Okay so the quote above is what I'm responding to, and all I wanted to do was bold Leonard Cohen and say "Hallelujah." Maybe a picture of Cohen as he appears today. Humor technology fail - it wouldn't edit.

Hey everybody knows the dice are loaded...

Do you remember the season when they were playing vince allover the line and signing and cutting 3-4 DTs a week it seemed. I think they sidned one named Cohen at the same time as another first name leonard and I thought they were trying out Leonard Cohen at DT.

A few years there, Vince was the equivalent of two linemen with the stiffs he was propping up, apologies to Kyle Love for his effort. Say the market for vince is slow, since there are elite DTs in FA this year. I'd give him a short termer at the right price or incentive and draft one too.
 
Yeah... I guess that I should just let this unfold. Maybe it just looks like a lot of pieces won't be back. Each year's team is different, but like you, I'm subjective. Like you, I find it hard to imagine the D-Line sans Vince... but I'm not in the bowels of foxborough evaluating the desired blend of mobility/power/size... the projected drop-off... the cap implications... etc.

I think we knew that $8M wasn't going to happen...

It seems like the "future hits" concept is the central question here - as you say, whether to formulate the team/cap hits for one blaze of glory (or to stretch toward that end of the spectrum) or to maintain relative cap discipline.

Revis forces the question... At present, Brady, Gronk, Revis, Mayo = about $58M of the cap. Of course that includes Revis' "placeholder" number of $25M. For casual fans like me, it's tempting to say "make some big uglies restructure or cut 'em," e.g., Solder and Vollmer... but good OTs don't grow on trees either. "Skill position" is something of a mis-nomer.

Like I said I'll leave it to the capologists for the most part. It just seems to me that We've got a guy that will cost us a lot. Over multiple years, that means losing multiple guys at opportune moments (and I don't mean $1M hits like Dennard), or screwing ourselves down the road, minus the effect of cap inflation. Revis has the cards on his deal, and all signs are that the Pats want to keep him.

I guess I should look at the 2016-18 numbers at least before going wild on the speculation juice. It might be that there are big dips in the out-years, and that's what I should be looking at. OTOH, do we really think Jamie Collins won't be costing more once his contract is up, just for example?

Like I said, this is why I say "In BB I trust, and failing that, locally, in the capologists I trust."
 
Just go read the threads from the week after the loss to KC, the milk carton kids were out in force demanding Belichick's head and bemoaning what a horrible team he had constructed and that's not hyperbole it's fact. They were demanding Belichick be fired and wanted Jim Harbaugh or Sean Payton too take over. One poster called Brady "too soft to break," and lamented that he had been reprogrammed as a "male model." Numerous posters claimed Brady was done and wanted him traded. Another well known chicken little claimed Belichick had ruined pretty much every unit on the team. Another poster, from Dartmouth, claimed it was all because Kraft is so cheap. On and on it went, and when one poster (nabwong) tried to say there was still time for them to get it together he was ripped hard for being such an oblivious homer. And now that the season is over and the chicken little and milk carton kids were once again proven completely ignorant they are popping their little heads out again with their familiar cries of impending disaster as Belichick screws up all chance of success in 2015. It never ends, nothing Belichick, Brady, out the Patriots achieve will ever stop the miserable crybabies from their never-ending cries of impending disaster and ruination for the Patriots.

I went so far as to say (after KC) that I didn't know how long the chain was on Brady. Full disclosure. Very happy that I was being a big dum-dum.
 
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