Celtics 2023 - 2024 Discussion

[Kdo5]

It’s like in 2007 when a lot people had concerns about the Nick Kaczur, Asante Samuel, and Adalius Thomas but none of that mattered because they were cruising.

That’s a terrible comparison. Just go back to the +/- don’t start embarrassing yourself with crossing sports garbage stating that Jaylen Brown = Adalius Thomas. That’s just stupid.

Brown has been a very team oriented player especially this season. He has adjusted to his role perfectly and embraced it.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

That’s a terrible comparison. Just go back to the +/- don’t start embarrassing yourself with crossing sports garbage stating that Jaylen Brown = Adalius Thomas. That’s just stupid.

Brown has been a very team oriented player especially this season. He has adjusted to his role perfectly and embraced it.

You’re moving all around here. I was responding to the idea the Celtics are cruising so I should just enjoy the ride, along with absurd stuff like “oh would they be 68-0 without him!?” Same **** as 07 Patriots. The idea that because the team is blazing, everything they’re doing cannot be questioned, or you shouldn’t talk about the team’s weakness.

You know this but are just pretending to misunderstand my point by making it absurd, as if I’m comparing Brown to a football player from 16 years ago.

No team is invincible and postseason is very different from regular season. So it is hard to enjoy this when I think the Celtics are probably going to lose whereas they’re almost guaranteed to to win every game, regardless of opponent, if Brown shot maybe 12-14 fgs per game and was otherwise off the court while White and Holiday lead a nearly unstoppable ball movement offense.

Let me be clear about this: Brown can’t be a team oriented player in the sense I’m talking about. I’m not debating about if he’s selfish. Or if he’s trying to be a better team player.

I’ve already posted the stats how many times? Extraordinarily low amount of passes received to passes made. You guys all claim he’s team oriented despite clear, indisputable evidence that he isn’t. You cannot run a spacing, quick movement offense with a player who shoots 20-25 times, isos frequently, and has no court vision. You can’t. You need five players who make quick decisions and pass as much as they shoot, which is almost everyone (pass/shoot ratio of around 50%) when one guy is like 35/65, it affects everything. You’ve seen how great the offense is at ball movement with Brown off the court…ir maybe you don’t pay attention.

Did you see the way the Celtics got slowed down against Denver and Minnesota? Did you notice both teams built a gameplan around letting Brown get the ball? Did you hear what the Heat admitted to in last year’s playoffs? Same gameplan. Turn the game into a low efficiency iso, midrange proposition for the Celtics which kills ball movement.

There’s a reason for these “advanced stats” and why these net ratings, plus/minus etc always come up negative for Brown, and you see it especially when the margins to win shrink.

The big problem is his absurd usage rate. Way too much ball. On court way too much. And against elite teams the idea that they need him more when they actually need him less. They’re not beating Denver playing him 35 minutes and running an offense through his 1on1 game. Maybe not Minnesota or OKC either.

 

[Kdo5]

You’re moving all around here. I was responding to the idea the Celtics are cruising so I should just enjoy the ride, along with absurd stuff like “oh would they be 68-0 without him!?” Same **** as 07 Patriots. The idea that because the team is blazing, everything they’re doing cannot be questioned, or you shouldn’t talk about the team’s weakness.

You know this but are just pretending to misunderstand my point by making it absurd, as if I’m comparing Brown to a football player from 16 years ago.

No team is invincible and postseason is very different from regular season. So it is hard to enjoy this when I think the Celtics are probably going to lose whereas they’re almost guaranteed to to win every game, regardless of opponent, if Brown shot maybe 12-14 fgs per game and was otherwise off the court while White and Holiday lead a nearly unstoppable ball movement offense.

Let me be clear about this: Brown can’t be a team oriented player in the sense I’m talking about. I’m not debating about if he’s selfish. Or if he’s trying to be a better team player.

I’ve already posted the stats how many times? Extraordinarily low amount of passes received to passes made. You guys all claim he’s team oriented despite clear, indisputable evidence that he isn’t. You cannot run a spacing, quick movement offense with a player who shoots 20-25 times, isos frequently, and has no court vision. You can’t. You need five players who make quick decisions and pass as much as they shoot, which is almost everyone (pass/shoot ratio of around 50%) when one guy is like 35/65, it affects everything. You’ve seen how great the offense is at ball movement with Brown off the court…ir maybe you don’t pay attention.

Did you see the way the Celtics got slowed down against Denver and Minnesota? Did you notice both teams built a gameplan around letting Brown get the ball? Did you hear what the Heat admitted to in last year’s playoffs? Same gameplan. Turn the game into a low efficiency iso, midrange proposition for the Celtics which kills ball movement.

There’s a reason for these “advanced stats” and why these net ratings, plus/minus etc always come up negative for Brown, and you see it especially when the margins to win shrink.

The big problem is his absurd usage rate. Way too much ball. On court way too much. And against elite teams the idea that they need him more when they actually need him less. They’re not beating Denver playing him 35 minutes and running an offense through his 1on1 game. Maybe not Minnesota or OKC either.

Are you talking about the Minnesota game that we won or like the sixth game of the season when he was finding his footing?

If it’s the one that we won the numbers for Brown are as follows:

Wolves: 35 pts, 56% shooting
Nuggets: 41 pts, 55% shooting

So those teams let him get the ball and he torched them with very efficient shooting. And yet you are using that to explain why he was the problem?

That’s some stupid ****. So Jaylen Brown is clearly the best player on the court for the Celtics that night (FTs aside) but we lost.

Instead of talking about the other guys who under performed (White & Holiday both 30% shooting), you blame Brown for their subpar night because according to you he is a black hole. He isn’t, he’s been good with the ball movement himself.

You make it seem like the ball movement just completely dies when he’s there which simply is not true. Not this season.

The iso ball problem that you are talking about has nothing to do with Jaylen Brown. You are barking up the wrong tree. The problem there is Tatum. In the key moments where we need the ball movement at its best it’s almost always one specific guy who vanquishes that movement.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

7 games? Not much of a sample size to hang an argument on.

In 1986 Scott Wedman started 19 games and they went 16-3. Kevin McHale started the rest and they went 51-12.

Their winning % was higher with Wedman.

I really think you are beating this drum a bit too loudly.

They are 54-14.

Define "toughest opponents". Their record in close games this year is exceptional.

A Scott Wedman stat from the rafters. Too funny. I had forgotten about Wedman. I hope he and his family are well. Do you have any Greg Kite stats?

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

I played a lot of ball, so did @rw and @ice.

I was very good as a kid in our church basketball league.

 

[RobertWeathers]

A Scott Wedman stat from the rafters. Too funny. I had forgotten about Wedman. I hope he and his family are well. Do you have any Greg Kite stats?

Nope but I remember he knocked KAJ on his ass in 1986 out in LA. Had 9 rebs G3 of the 87 Finals.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I was very good as a kid in our church basketball league.

I love hoops.

I'm 52 and retired from my over-35 mens league a couple of years ago. I badly sprained my ankle and it really messed up my golf game for a couple of months so I choose golf over hoops.

Played HS ball and club in college. We were D-II and the coach asked if I wanted to try out but the reality is I wouldn't have played much. I was a decent player but not starting material on a D-II school.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

I love hoops.

I'm 52 and retired from my over-35 mens league a couple of years ago. I badly sprained my ankle and it really messed up my golf game for a couple of months so I choose golf over hoops.

Played HS ball and club in college. We were D-II and the coach asked if I wanted to try out but the reality is I wouldn't have played much. I was a decent player but not starting material on a D-II school.

You are a much better player than me. I made the decision between senior softball and golf, and chose senior softball. It is more exercise with running included so it motivates me to get on the treadmill.

 

[aluminum seats]

Without commenting on the merits one way or the other, a couple thoughts on this Jaylen Brown thing (that's tearing us apart!):

--Takes that seem surprising, or counter-intuitive, are not necessarily wrong. I know that seems obvious, but it's important to remember. The whole idea of moneyball was based on thinking about things in a different way, that a lot of traditional baseball people thought was insane

--Sometimes really talented players aren't necessarily the best fit for a particular team. Even guys who are stars. There's a lot of reasons that might be true, but it definitely is true

 

[aluminum seats]

Giannis being out sucks. Games like this are kind of no-win situations

 

[Kdo5]

Without commenting on the merits one way or the other, a couple thoughts on this Jaylen Brown thing (that's tearing us apart!):

--Takes that seem surprising, or counter-intuitive, are not necessarily wrong. I know that seems obvious, but it's important to remember. The whole idea of moneyball was based on thinking about things in a different way, that a lot of traditional baseball people thought was insane

--Sometimes really talented players aren't necessarily the best fit for a particular team. Even guys who are stars. There's a lot of reasons that might be true, but it definitely is true

Okay so then is Jaylen Brown bad for the Celtics or not? If you feel it’s a valid perspective, what’s your opinion on it?

Ice’s favorite stats say he isn’t a valuable part of the team. So it’s a question of do you agree with him or see the value in Brown’s game and overall impact on the team outside of the +/-

 

[aluminum seats]

Okay so then is Jaylen Brown bad for the Celtics or not? If you feel it’s a valid perspective, what’s your opinion on it?

Ice’s favorite stats say he isn’t a valuable part of the team. So it’s a question of do you agree with him or see the value in Brown’s game and overall impact on the team outside of the +/-

Well, the point of my post was more about the idea of open mindedness

But to answer your question, it never occurred to me to look at Brown other than as the excellent #2 to Tatum. I looked at him with fresher eyes at the beginning of the season and did see many of the things @Ice_Ice_Brady talks about. I think Brown has gotten better this season, to his credit. I think Brown's ability to create his own shot is valuable

So.....do I "see the value" in Brown's game? Yes. Do I think there's a version of Brown, playing in a contained way within this offense, that can help the Celtics win a title this year? Yes. Do I think it's possible that Brown's bad tendencies could be part of what we point to this year if the Celtics fall short? Also yes.

 

[Kdo5]

Well, the point of my post was more about the idea of open mindedness

But to answer your question, it never occurred to me to look at Brown other than as the excellent #2 to Tatum. I looked at him with fresher eyes at the beginning of the season and did see many of the things @Ice_Ice_Brady talks about. I think Brown has gotten better this season, to his credit. I think Brown's ability to create his own shot is valuable

So.....do I "see the value" in Brown's game? Yes. Do I think there's a version of Brown, playing in a contained way within this offense, that can help the Celtics win a title this year? Yes. Do I think it's possible that Brown's bad tendencies could be part of what we point to this year if the Celtics fall short? Also yes.

His bad tendency has been the turnovers. Game 7 was the perfect example.

He’s been much better this year. If he reverts to that in the playoffs then yeah he’ll deserve criticism. Hopefully he has moved past that.

Ice’s point is more a general statement that his overall game is bad for the team which I strongly disagree with. I say he has had a specific flaw in his game that has hurt us before (turnovers against Miami). Much like Tatum (iso ball) has or have other guys like Smart (shooting too much).

 

[bresna]

WTF... This is hilarious.

 

[Kdo5]

WTF... This is hilarious.

Was that intentional or not? Hard to tell.

 

[aluminum seats]

Was that intentional or not? Hard to tell.

Yep, he said he was trying to give the team some energy. The guy's a psycho

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

His bad tendency has been the turnovers. Game 7 was the perfect example.

He’s been much better this year. If he reverts to that in the playoffs then yeah he’ll deserve criticism. Hopefully he has moved past that.

Ice’s point is more a general statement that his overall game is bad for the team which I strongly disagree with. I say he has had a specific flaw in his game that has hurt us before (turnovers against Miami). Much like Tatum (iso ball) has or have other guys like Smart (shooting too much).

He has improved his turnovers and handle. Of course he is benefitting a lot with weaker defenders given the Celtics offense but same with all players.

But the unsolvable issue that I see is that his offensive toolset is contained within itself. It isn’t part of a greater ball movement scheme. Yes, he makes some quick passes and good spacing decisions once in awhile but that isn’t his thing at all. Example, when other guys drive to the basket they anticipate a double and recognize the gap. Brown rarely does. It’s just a simple game of “how can I score?” When they play without him, the tempo is totally different. Fast breaks, cuts, off ball movement, quick passes galore.

And as I’ve repeated, Brown’s game is ideal for a team lacking ball movement and good teammates, example Celtics teams in past where Marcus Smart is a pretty crummy third option and crummy playmaking point guard compared to White and Holiday.

This is why I’ve suggested Hauser as a floor spacer, fits better with what this team is doing. This doesn’t mean Hauser is a better offensive player than Brown. It means his game flows well with four other high caliber players who all look immediately for gaps in the defense rather than holding the ball and setting. This is why the basic box score doesn’t usually capture what is happening but plus-minus, on-off, and advanced stats do capture it.

As I’ve said, Tatum can also be a problem especially playing dumb hero ball down the stretch. And the reason I criticize Tatum and Brown is because their errors are almost always mental and a result of being stubborn, whereas all the other players might have bad shooting nights, or just off nights, but it’s rarely due to making poor basketball decisions and trying to force what isn’t there.

 

[Kdo5]

This is why I’ve suggested Hauser as a floor spacer, fits better with what this team is doing. This doesn’t mean Hauser is a better offensive player than Brown. It means his game flows well with four other high caliber players who all look immediately for gaps in the defense rather than holding the ball and setting. This is why the basic box score doesn’t usually capture what is happening but plus-minus, on-off, and advanced stats do capture it.

This is where I just can't take you seriously on the subject. The Celtics are not a better team playing Sam Hauser instead of Jaylen Brown. That's downright stupid.

Hauser is less capable than Brown in every single way other than catch and shoot threes. Worse defender, worse offensive player by a large margin. Cannot create for himself. In crunch time or a big spot Hauser is a stand in the corner and don't attempt anything else player. Can't have that guy on the floor when it really matters.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

This is where I just can't take you seriously on the subject. The Celtics are not a better team playing Sam Hauser instead of Jaylen Brown. That's downright stupid.

Then why does the team score more points and allow fewer when Hauser is on the floor versus Brown? To say it’s “downright stupid” while knowing this fact, is like sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming. Doesn’t it make you a better team if you score more and allow less? I’ve yet to hear an explanation from any of you, other than a wisp of an explanation regarding randomness and small sample sizes, which are becoming laughable at this point in the season, especially because Brown is no longer struggling (for him.)

Hauser is less capable than Brown in every single way other than catch and shoot threes. Worse defender, worse offensive player by a large margin. Cannot create for himself. In crunch time or a big spot Hauser is a stand in the corner and don't attempt anything else player. Can't have that guy on the floor when it really matters.

You need to add “On-Ball” to all of these things. Yes, when the offense has slowed into a dribble and drive proposition, of course Brown is better, but he himself creates that situation which is rarely needed with two elite point guards, a top 5 player, and a freak 7’4” sharpshooter/paint clogger. When defending on ball, Brown is a better defender. He isn’t very good at defensive spacing, taking away angles, or help-side. Overall the defense gap isn’t that great but slight edge to Brown since Hauser is slow, but I’m not a Hauser stan, they’d be fine with any floor spacing solid 3 point shooter who buys into ball movement. They’re better with Pritchard or Horford instead of Brown as well, though they play different positions so Hauser is the more natural replacement.

 

[Kdo5]

Then why does the team score more points and allow fewer when Hauser is on the floor versus Brown? To say it’s “downright stupid” while knowing this fact, is like sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming. Doesn’t it make you a better team if you score more and allow less? I’ve yet to hear an explanation from any of you, other than a wisp of an explanation regarding randomness and small sample sizes, which are becoming laughable at this point in the season, especially because Brown is no longer struggling (for him.)


You need to add “On-Ball” to all of these things. Yes, when the offense has slowed into a dribble and drive proposition, of course Brown is better, but he himself creates that situation which is rarely needed with two elite point guards, a top 5 player, and a freak 7’4” sharpshooter/paint clogger. When defending on ball, Brown is a better defender. He isn’t very good at defensive spacing, taking away angles, or help-side. Overall the defense gap isn’t that great but slight edge to Brown since Hauser is slow, but I’m not a Hauser stan, they’d be fine with any floor spacing solid 3 point shooter who buys into ball movement. They’re better with Pritchard or Horford instead of Brown as well, though they play different positions so Hauser is the more natural replacement.

Hauser is a great fit with a bunch of other star players when we are up 20 points at home and things are cruising and all he has to do is mostly stay out of the way and launch a three when it comes to him.

What use is he to us in the fourth quarter during a close game? He can’t drive to the rim, he doesn’t have a mid-range, he doesn’t draw any fouls, he doesn’t have the high energy defense to lockdown top scorers on the other team.

That’s the point. Your numbers don’t consider that games have different moments (the most important ones) that require a higher caliber of player. You need someone who can make plays, make their own points and play lock down defense. Brown does those things which makes him way more valuable than a lesser player who simply stays out of the way.