Patriots Daily News Thread Patriots practice Thursday 8/31/23

[Bill Lee]

Time for Gonzo to take #0

I’m still bummed bout Gonzo not taking number 0

I saw a tweet saying the Pats don't provide the number 0 jersey, so there was nothing for Gonzo to take.

Who knows, maybe it reminds Krafty Bob of the Orchids of Asia too much?

 

[WaterfallJumper]

Vederian is an awesome name. Carry on.

 

[n6249c]

Vederian is an awesome name. Carry on.

Sounds like the name of a gladiator in one of the mythic romance novels my sister writes.

 

[Patsfan1958]

 

[DaBruinz]

Surprised that only Thornton has gone to IR so far. I expected at least 3 IR moves.

I only expected 2 when they CUT Russey and then IRed Bolden for the season.

 

[DaBruinz]

C'mon man, your a mod here for a long time yet not only you still dont have a clue how cap works but you use every opportunity to showcase it.

The sarcasm went RIGHT over your head there, LD.

 

[Bill Lee]

Ross, I'd urge people to listen to Andrew Brandt former Packers GM on the salary cap. He and groh pretty much said the same things.. you can do whatever you want with the Cap.

I think that's an over-simplification.

Here's what Brandt wrote for SI.COM:

Let’s make this very simple: Cash is real money; cap is simply accounting.​

​

Cash is what a player will actually receive in a contract. Cap is a mechanism of compliance, a way NFL teams account for a contract over the life of the deal.​

​

And through the NFL’s systematic magic of signing and option bonus proration—spreading out the cap impact of bonuses over the term of the deal—cap can be adjusted to provide short-term gain for long-term pain.​

Note the part about long-term pain.

He is NOT saying you can do anything you want with the Cap, what he is saying is the Cash side matters a lot more than the Cap side.

When he talks about Cash over Cap, he is saying (as he does above) that you can use Cash to buy Cap by converting salary to signing bonuses but (a) this requires an owner who is willing to pay out the Cash and (b) as above, if you do too much of this you do get long-term pain.

Note that all owners are rich in the sense that they own (part of) a multi-billion dollar asset, but not all owners have access to a lot of cash. Owners like Kraft, Jones and Kroenke are flush with cash, owners such as Spanos, Davis, and Brown have far less access to cash than the fat cats do, so they have a harder time converting Cap to Cash. They also can't put a lot of cash into escrow to cover guarantees, which is why the Bengals are struggling to close a deal with Burrow.

Andrew's bottom line is:

Cash matters a lot more than cap.​

And the opposite also true, that most media members talk too much about the Cap, and not enough about the Cash.

The overall idea that the Pats could be choosing to burn through Cap now and add expensive players is true, but the idea that you can do this without any impact is false. The Cap does matter, but in most cases, not to the degree the media suggests it does. We had our cap hell years after we signed back-loaded contracts with Brady, and Tampa is now paying the price for doing the same thing.

The Rams are paying Donald, Stafford and Cup a huge part of their Cap and can't cut them due to the huge dead cap numbers they have. Stafford is shot (IMO) and he almost retired on them and that would have been a disaster, since if he did that they'd take a $100M hit to their cap. If they wait till next year after June 1 and cut him, it's still a $50M hit. The Rams already have $75M of dead cap money to work through, money they can't spend on players. They are putting together their team using UDFAs (since they also traded away almost all of their draft capital) and waiver wire players. They picked up five off wavers, largely because they don't have the cap space to pay veterans. They are a true "stars and scrubs" team, and their big problem is their stars have all peaked and heading into their declines while they have no cap or draft picks they can use to replace them.

So, there are horror stories if/when teams decide to push money out into the future and go for it. The fans probably don't complain. The Bucs and the Rams got their Super Bowl wins. Yet now both suck, and a lot of their "fans" have gotten their cheap adrenaline rush and have moved on to other things. We will see a lot of empty seats in Tampa and LA this season. The fans have moved on, but the owners are still paying the bills from the SB runs and have a smaller fan base to extract cash from.

I think overall we're doing the right thing. We're not one spectacular WR or CB away from contention. When we are, that's when you go out looking for someone like Darrelle Revis or Stephon Gilmore. Till then, you keep building the overall team talent level and depth. We did **** up an entire season with the MP/JJ experiment, and that really ****ed up the team rebuilding cycle. IMO that might be the real reason we end up walking away from Mac Jones: he's going to want QB1 money, and he might not have shown he has QB1 talent by the time we need to pay him, and a big part of that is last year's lost season. We've seen with Zappe that BB can be ruthless, MJ may find out the same thing if he isn't a true QB1 by the time he needs to be paid or be cut.

Ref: https://www.si.com/nfl/2023/05/17/nfl-business-football-explaining-salary-cap

Ref: Los Angeles Rams Salary Cap | Over the Cap

 

[moosekill]

If you are a player cash matters more than the cap. If you are a poor owner cash and cap are probably equal. If you are an average to really rich owner cap matters way more than cash does. Brandt isn’t really correct.

 

[DaBruinz]

I know.. what I'm trying to say is.. did most of us care about cap space or the fact TB12 and randy were sensational that season.

I get it. You weren't here for much of the Patriots dominant years. People on this board have always cared about the Cap. Especially thanks to Miguel Benzan AKA Patscap on Twitter. He got his start here and he educated a lot of people on the cap and the changes that have occurred with each of the CBA signings.

The point that @Ross12 was trying to make is that you can't pay attention to the mediots like Curran when it comes to the cap. You need to follow the people who actually have an understanding of it. That's why Ross was sarcastic.

The Pats set themselves up in a very good position in terms of their cap management after Brady left. They're very good at manipulating the cap by picking and choosing when to push money into the future. They've missed out on some guys re-signing (Thuney) but overall have a good track record on it.

 

[Bill Lee]

The Pats set themselves up in a very good position in terms of their cap management after Brady left. They're very good at manipulating the cap by picking and choosing when to push money into the future. They've missed out on some guys re-signing (Thuney) but overall have a good track record on it.

I agree, and that's part of the point I was trying to make above. Even cash-rich owners can't operate as if the cap doesn't matter, eventually it catches up with them. The cap is accounting, but in the real world bad accounting can get you thrown into jail, and in the NFL it can get you into the position the Bucs and the Rams now find themselves in.

The point some in the media are trying to make is there is always some team that can sign Player X if they want to, the cap is not the reason why that binkie is not being signed. That's true, but also teams are not signing Player X because they don't think Player X is worth the money he is asking for, and the reason why the can't just pay him what he wants eventually boils down to the cap. Some in the media portray this as an excuse, and perhaps it is. It's easier to tell your fans that you aren't signing the binkie because of the cap, instead of telling that player, his agent, and the world that they think that player isn't worth the money he's asking for. Yet there is some truth behind the excuse, cap does eventually matter, just ask the Bucs and the Rams.

 

[captain stone]

Isn't that the name of Sammy's quick cat?

Or is that the name of Fat Freddie's Cat...?

 

[WaterfallJumper]

Sounds like the name of a gladiator in one of the mythic romance novels my sister writes.

I'd read it. Send me a PM, haha.

 

[Real fan 02]

People who don't have a basic understanding of how the cap works or care to learn don't care about the cap.

Miami..? Tua is on his rookie contract, once they decide whether to pay him or not, they'll have to worry about the cap. QB's are the most expensive position in football. A good QB on a rookie contract is a cheat code.

You don't have to care about the cap, there's no law as football fans, that being said the salary cap directly affects team building and the talent on the field. Any team can run up a bunch of debt and field a talented team for a short time, doing it for two decades is another matter entirely.

Wozzy, I completely understand what your saying. I'm not ignorant to the cap, or how it works as it's important. What I'm saying is as FAN.. I'm trying to focus on what my team does on the field, and allow the people who deal with the cap, and everything else that it takes to manage a roster do so. I'm a patriots Fan.. I turn on my TV to watch football it's the best thing to counter winter. I embark to my man cave away from the wife and kids.. LOL..

I enjoy everyone's thoughts and opinions the forum. I'm just gearing my mind to see how we look this season, how the offense comes together. Can the defense slow some good QBs and WRs. Things like that. I get that there are posters who seem to be passionate about the cap space, and all. I just want to get back to winning football!

 

[Patsfan1958]

 

[Real fan 02]

I get it. You weren't here for much of the Patriots dominant years. People on this board have always cared about the Cap. Especially thanks to Miguel Benzan AKA Patscap on Twitter. He got his start here and he educated a lot of people on the cap and the changes that have occurred with each of the CBA signings.

The point that @Ross12 was trying to make is that you can't pay attention to the mediots like Curran when it comes to the cap. You need to follow the people who actually have an understanding of it. That's why Ross was sarcastic.

The Pats set themselves up in a very good position in terms of their cap management after Brady left. They're very good at manipulating the cap by picking and choosing when to push money into the future. They've missed out on some guys re-signing (Thuney) but overall have a good track record on it.

Thank you. I appreciate you sharing that information. Seriously no sarcasm. I respect everyone on here and enjoy what the forum allows. I guess I was just really speaking to the fact that I just wanted to focus on how we look on the field this season. But I absolutely get what your saying. I respect people that are in the know about the cap. It's very informative.

 

[mike_usagisan]

I'd read it. Send me a PM, haha.

Would you review it for the Pub?

 

[mike_usagisan]

They are really looking hard at all the WRs!

 

[captain stone]

I liked Shi Smith as a mid-late prospect during the 2021 draft... Double-D type player: small, shifty, slot.

Never stop looking for help Bill.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

I agree, and that's part of the point I was trying to make above. Even cash-rich owners can't operate as if the cap doesn't matter, eventually it catches up with them. The cap is accounting, but in the real world bad accounting can get you thrown into jail, and in the NFL it can get you into the position the Bucs and the Rams now find themselves in.

The point some in the media are trying to make is there is always some team that can sign Player X if they want to, the cap is not the reason why that binkie is not being signed. That's true, but also teams are not signing Player X because they don't think Player X is worth the money he is asking for, and the reason why the can't just pay him what he wants eventually boils down to the cap. Some in the media portray this as an excuse, and perhaps it is. It's easier to tell your fans that you aren't signing the binkie because of the cap, instead of telling that player, his agent, and the world that they think that player isn't worth the money he's asking for. Yet there is some truth behind the excuse, cap does eventually matter, just ask the Bucs and the Rams.

Or eventually ask @Real fan 02 .He does not think the Cap is real.

 

[Zuma]

Wozzy, I completely understand what your saying. I'm not ignorant to the cap, or how it works as it's important. What I'm saying is as FAN.. I'm trying to focus on what my team does on the field, and allow the people who deal with the cap, and everything else that it takes to manage a roster do so. I'm a patriots Fan.. I turn on my TV to watch football it's the best thing to counter winter. I embark to my man cave away from the wife and kids.. LOL..

I enjoy everyone's thoughts and opinions the forum. I'm just gearing my mind to see how we look this season, how the offense comes together. Can the defense slow some good QBs and WRs. Things like that. I get that there are posters who seem to be passionate about the cap space, and all. I just want to get back to winning football!

Agree. I prefer to focus on the game and players and not the business side of the NFL.