Reviewing and overturning a penalty

[Lloyd_Christmas]

Was it just me, or did the refs actually overturn a penalty that had been previously declined when they reviewed the scoring play and determined that Gronk went out of bounds before catching the TD pass.

I thought penalties could not be overturned by review? It would have been different if they threw the flag, conferred, and picked it up... but that is not what happened. They called the penalty, announced it, and then reported that the Pats declined it. How do you take that off the books?

I figured when the TD was taken away, they would give the pats the choice to accept or decline the penalty again given the fact that they overturned the TD.

Also, the penalty for our DB hitting McCourty, the fantom call on Mankins for a hold that killed one our drives, the non call early in the game where the Jets defender got to our WR too early (wish I could remember more details on that one)... all in all, a pretty poor day for the refs.

Mostly, I am just interested in that overturning the penalty situation. Maybe I don't understand the rules.

Thanks.

 

[ForThoseAboutToRock]

Being in a bar watching the game last night, I too was baffled by the situation.

Best I could come up with at the time was that the foul on Branch was offset by Gronk doing some illegal touching of the ball... but now that I think of it, still doesn't make sense since they can't go into a replay booth, and then retroactively call a penalty - they can just nullify the score.

As for the personal foul that knocked McCourty out, my only guess there is that they can call intent to hit helmet to helmet? Like, there was some kind of illegal launching at a defenseless receiver going on? Dunno. That was during the part of the game where the refs seemed to need to make a penalty call on every play.

 

[patsfan06]

Yep, it was ridiculous. Luckily we still won, but that was just mind blowing.

At worst, there should have been offsetting penalties with a replaying of the downs.

 

[patsfan06]

Was it just me, or did the refs actually overturn a penalty that had been previously declined when they reviewed the scoring play and determined that Gronk went out of bounds before catching the TD pass.

I thought penalties could not be overturned by review? It would have been different if they threw the flag, conferred, and picked it up... but that is not what happened. They called the penalty, announced it, and then reported that the Pats declined it. How do you take that off the books?

I figured when the TD was taken away, they would give the pats the choice to accept or decline the penalty again given the fact that they overturned the TD.

Also, the penalty for our DB hitting McCourty, the fantom call on Mankins for a hold that killed one our drives, the non call early in the game where the Jets defender got to our WR too early (wish I could remember more details on that one)... all in all, a pretty poor day for the refs.

Mostly, I am just interested in that overturning the penalty situation. Maybe I don't understand the rules.

Thanks.

That was Strickland on Gronk with the PI. They called the same exact thing against Arrington last week vs. the Giants.

 

[signbabybrady]

The flag was for illegal contact and they ruled Brady was out of the pocket and picked the flag up. I was more surprised by assessing the illegal touching on the replay as I didn't think they called penalties on replays but I guess this penalty is black and white like 12 men which is for sure reviewable

 

[PatsSox363804]

Yeah it made no sense unless you can all of a sudden pick up a flag while reviewing something else and I'm unaware of the rule. At worst it should have been 3rd and 11 but it's funny to think that we would have been better off if Gronk dropped the pass

 

[patsfan06]

The flag was for illegal contact and they ruled Brady was out of the pocket and picked the flag up. I was more surprised by assessing the illegal touching on the replay as I didn't think they called penalties on replays but I guess this penalty is black and white like 12 men which is for sure reviewable

Once again, they didn't rule Brady left the pocket until after their review. Which is something that can't be reviewed.

It was ridiculous all around.

 

[Rob0729]

Although I think it was Collinsworth covering the refs' arses, but he said that the penalty was overturned because Brady was outside the pocket when the illegal contact was called. That is a bunch of BS.

First, the play call on the field was illegal contact. It was announced that way and it was announced that it was declined. So they could not overturn it at that point after further discussion.

Second, illegal contact is not a reviewable penalty. So even if the replay showed Brady was outside the pocket, it couldn't be overturned.

The refs just screwed up plain and simple. Luckily, it didn't hurt the Pats, but it should have been offsetting penalties.

 

[signbabybrady]

Once again, they didn't rule Brady left the pocket until after their review. Which is something that can't be reviewed.

It was ridiculous all around.

That's not true they picked the flag up and announced why before announcing the review.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Best I could come up with at the time was that the foul on Branch was offset by Gronk doing some illegal touching of the ball... but now that I think of it, still doesn't make sense since they can't go into a replay booth, and then retroactively call a penalty - they can just nullify the score.

The refs conferred and ruled there was no illegal contact penalty on the guy holding Branch since (in their opinion) Tom Brady had left the pocket. At least this was the desciption by the NBC crew. It was close...

As far as the Gronk catch, this was a case where the automatic review hurt us, since previously the coaches challenging a call had to specify exactly what they were challenging. If in that case they were challenging if Gronk had control of the ball, they would have lost the challenge. If they challenged that he had stepped out of bounds, they would have won the challenge (but I doubt that they saw that).

 

[Rob0729]

That's not true they picked the flag up and announced why before announcing the review.

Illegal contact is not a reviewable play. They did not pick up the flag. They said it was illegal contact and it was declined.

Also, they did not announce why they were reviewing the play, they reviewed the play because every TD has a booth review and the booth said to review to see if Gronk actually really scored a TD. They clearly did not review to see if there was in fact illegal contact. This was not a coach's challenge.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

I am not sure if the review played any role in the Branch non-call, but that aspect of the play may actually be reviewable.

The review would not be to check whether there was a hold or not, but to see whether another aspect of the play (tipping of the ball, or a QB being outside the tackle box) renders the contact irrelevant.

I recall that a pass interference call has indeed been reviewed to see if a ball was tipped at the line or not, which would make any contact perfectly legal.

 

[signbabybrady]

Illegal contact is not a reviewable play. They did not pick up the flag. They said it was illegal contact and it was declined.

Also, they did not announce why they were reviewing the play, they reviewed the play because every TD has a booth review and the booth said to review to see if Gronk actually really scored a TD. They clearly did not review to see if there was in fact illegal contact. This was not a coach's challenge.

You will have to go watch again. I was there so I didn't have to deal with the announcers keeping up. I was actually in row one of thay endzone. The ref announced to the crown that there was no flag on the play due to Brady being out of the pocket. Then moments later announced the play would be reviewed and they didn't announce why it was being reviewed.

Bottom line if Brady was out of the pocket they got that right and Gronk did step out. Gronk may have been pushed out by a Jet though.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Was it just me, or did the refs actually overturn a penalty that had been previously declined when they reviewed the scoring play and determined that Gronk went out of bounds before catching the TD pass.

I thought penalties could not be overturned by review? It would have been different if they threw the flag, conferred, and picked it up... but that is not what happened. They called the penalty, announced it, and then reported that the Pats declined it. How do you take that off the books?

I figured when the TD was taken away, they would give the pats the choice to accept or decline the penalty again given the fact that they overturned the TD.

Also, the penalty for our DB hitting McCourty, the fantom call on Mankins for a hold that killed one our drives, the non call early in the game where the Jets defender got to our WR too early (wish I could remember more details on that one)... all in all, a pretty poor day for the refs.

Mostly, I am just interested in that overturning the penalty situation. Maybe I don't understand the rules.

Thanks.

Last night was one of the most poorly officiated games I have ever seen. The calls almost entirely went against the Pats, which I'm inclined to chalk up to incompetent refs being swayed by a home crowd. The helmet to helmet call on Moore was stupid, and should never have been called, but it's a snap decision, so I can at least sort of understand. Overturning the illegal contact penalty on review, though, just isn't in the rulebook. I think they made up a whole new procedure there, and it took four points off the board. They are very lucky that that ended up not mattering.

 

[BradyFTW!]

You will have to go watch again. I was there so I didn't have to deal with the announcers keeping up. I was actually in row one of thay endzone. The ref announced to the crown that there was no flag on the play due to Brady being out of the pocket. Then moments later announced the play would be reviewed and they didn't announce why it was being reviewed.

Bottom line if Brady was out of the pocket they got that right and Gronk did step out. Gronk may have been pushed out by a Jet though.

Was that before or after they announced the penalty and that the Patriots had declined it? Maybe it was clearer to people in attendance, because I couldn't figure out what was going on on TV.

 

[Lloyd_Christmas]

The flag was for illegal contact and they ruled Brady was out of the pocket and picked the flag up. I was more surprised by assessing the illegal touching on the replay as I didn't think they called penalties on replays but I guess this penalty is black and white like 12 men which is for sure reviewable

I have to disagree with you here, they did not "Pick it up". Right before they went to commercial, the official announced to the audience what the penalty was and that the Patriots declined the penalty.

I am 100% certain that the official announced the penalty and said the patriots decline it. I went back to make sure.

You can't call the penalty back once you have announced it and a team has accepted or declined it can you?

 

[signbabybrady]

Was that before or after they announced the penalty and that the Patriots had declined it? Maybe it was clearer to people in attendance, because I couldn't figure out what was going on on TV.

There never was an option to decline because they picked it up. This happened before the review. There was an Aweful lot going on so I could understand some confusion from the announcers and maybe I am mis-remembering but I am fairly certain I am right.

 

[Rob0729]

You will have to go watch again. I was there so I didn't have to deal with the announcers keeping up. I was actually in row one of thay endzone. The ref announced to the crown that there was no flag on the play due to Brady being out of the pocket. Then moments later announced the play would be reviewed and they didn't announce why it was being reviewed.

Bottom line if Brady was out of the pocket they got that right and Gronk did step out. Gronk may have been pushed out by a Jet though.

Now that you said it I remember the ref saying "There is no penalty for illegal contact because the QB was out of the pocket, but the Patriots decline the penalty anyway. Touchdown." Why would the Patriots decline a penalty that wasn't there?

Sorry, you have it wrong. Whether the call was correct or not, the illegal contact penalty was not overturnable.

 

[patsfan06]

There never was an option to decline because they picked it up. This happened before the review. There was an Aweful lot going on so I could understand some confusion from the announcers and maybe I am mis-remembering but I am fairly certain I am right.

That just isn't true.

 

[borg]

With this "out of the pocket" rule....DBs can just blast potential receivers during QB roll outs????