So how do you grade this year’s draft?

[crawhammer]

When it comes to trading up - you need a willing partner. They may not have wanted to go as high as 50, but you make the deal with the team who is willing to make the trade.

You also need a reason to trade up.

Did the Patriots like Thornton over Metchie? Then I'm really questioning their judgement. They should have put together a more aggressive offer to move up for Metchie. Our eventual trade partner got the better receiver in Skyy Moore. Buffalo got Khalil Shakir in the 5th round... I also prefer that player.

You have no clue where pro teams had any of these players on their boards...

But you've got such a firm enough handle on all of it where you're certain Strange was a first rounder and the trade up for Thornton was necessary? lol

No I'm not, I'm saying many NFL executives are morons. I never said anything about Jonathan Kraft.

Of course you didn't. You only called pro executives who are the products of nepotism boobs.

Being the child of coaches doesn't preclude one from being successful or not. Kyle Shanahan is the son of Mike Shanahan and he's one of the best head coaches in the league. Matt Groh is the son of Al Groh... I'm happy the Pats are tapping into a pipeline of youth that have been taught how the pro game works their whole lives.

How do you know Steven Belichick's primary qualification isn't just being Bill's son? You think the relationship is a coincidence?

You've already written them off as a failure, this has been a running theme of your posts since Tom left.

They won 10 games and made the postseason last season. With the Belichicks and the additions of Patricia and Judge to the coaching staff, and the brilliant 2022 draft class, only great things are ahead.

So you're being deliberately obtuse... willfully ignorant... smells like an agenda because you resent BB for some perceived slight against Brady... or perhaps you just don't like his gruff nature... either way it's misguided nonsense.

On the contrary, I'm following the scoreboard. Belichick flunked out in his first go-round as a head coach... he wasn't the first or last to do so.

And right, it was a colossal blunder letting Brady walk for nothing. One they let him leave and two they got zero compensation. How dumb is that? Seriously how is it you're left with literally nothing after the GOAT quarterback leaves your franchise? Once you've made your decision that you're not bringing him back, how is it that you willfully put yourself in a position where compensation isn't possible? Another example of the in the best interest of team line being bs.

When BB was hired by Cleveland he was the youngest NFL coach in history to that point. I suspect he wasn't assertive enough, didn't push to bench Kosar, was easily pushed around by ownership and the fanbase possibly. I suspect he learned from his time there and carried what he learned to his next job. None of this changes that the last time Cleveland won a playoff game prior to 2020 was two decades before when Bill was coaching there and they had the best defense in the league. Then Art Modell pulled the rug out from under the Browns and decided to move the team to Baltimore, which had a clear effect on that 1995 team... the entire reason for that documentary. So you're just a BB hater with an agenda to push.

The major flaw with your argument here is Belichick has nothing to do with the Cleveland Browns who didn't win a playoff game until 2020. His team, with the same owner Art Modell (through 2003), moved to Baltimore where after cleaning up Belichick's mess for a few seasons went on to to win many playoff games and Super Bowls.

So Deflategate was on Brady then... right?

If you want to believe they were deflating footballs then yes that's got to be mostly on Brady. I'm sure Belichick would have known about it but Brady would have to be the one providing his PSI preference. If it was happening then it wasn't amounting to anything. Brady's been more consistently successful with 2 different teams since the controversy.

 

[Ian]

You also need a reason to trade up.

They had a reason. They wanted the player and were afraid that if they didn't, he wouldn't be there. That's why teams trade up to begin with.

 

[crawhammer]

I think Tom was a great developmental prospect who received the best coaching possible from Bill and Charlie, he also had great blocking, good weapons, great defense and special teams. BB hired all of the guys responsible for what I just described.

You're forgetting to give Belichick credit for Brady's success in Tampa Bay.

 

[ashley]

You also need a reason to trade up.

Did the Patriots like Thornton over Metchie? Then I'm really questioning their judgement. They should have put together a more aggressive offer to move up for Metchie. Our eventual trade partner got the better receiver in Skyy Moore. Buffalo got Khalil Shakir in the 5th round... I also prefer that player.


But you've got such a firm enough handle on all of it where you're certain Strange was a first rounder and the trade up for Thornton was necessary? lol


Of course you didn't. You only called pro executives who are the products of nepotism boobs.


How do you know Steven Belichick's primary qualification isn't just being Bill's son? You think the relationship is a coincidence?


They won 10 games and made the postseason last season. With the Belichicks and the additions of Patricia and Judge to the coaching staff, and the brilliant 2022 draft class, only great things are ahead.


On the contrary, I'm following the scoreboard. Belichick flunked out in his first go-round as a head coach... he wasn't the first or last to do so.

And right, it was a colossal blunder letting Brady walk for nothing. One they let him leave and two they got zero compensation. How dumb is that? Seriously how is it you're left with literally nothing after the GOAT quarterback leaves your franchise? Once you've made your decision that you're not bringing him back, how is it that you willfully put yourself in a position where compensation isn't possible? Another example of the in the best interest of team line being bs.


The major flaw with your argument here is Belichick has nothing to do with the Cleveland Browns who didn't win a playoff game until 2020. His team, with the same owner Art Modell (through 2003), moved to Baltimore where after cleaning up Belichick's mess for a few seasons went on to to win many playoff games and Super Bowls.


If you want to believe they were deflating footballs then yes that's got to be mostly on Brady. I'm sure Belichick would have known about it but Brady would have to be the one providing his PSI preference. If it was happening then it wasn't amounting to anything. Brady's been more consistently successful with 2 different teams since the controversy.

We're not going down the road of BB vs TB again and how bad BB is. Let's just move on.

 

[crawhammer]

They had a reason. They wanted the player and were afraid that if they didn't, he wouldn't be there. That's why teams trade up to begin with.

I get all that. I just don't believe Thornton wasn't going to be there at #54. I also like the 3 receivers taken almost immediately after better.

Any projections for Thornton's rookie season production?

 

[Ian]

You're forgetting to give Belichick credit for Brady's success in Tampa Bay.

That's sort of a given due to Tom's success as a player, which he achieved both with the coaching he had here and the fact he put the work they asked of him in.

 

[All3Phases]

I give Kraft all the credit for signing BB, he put his money where his mouth is and used a 1st to get him. That being said once he hired him, Kraft stepped back and let his football guy run football operations. I could be a billionaire who can afford the best new private jet and hire the best pilot available... I'd be an idiot at that point to try and tell my pilot how to fly it or my mechanic how to maintain it.

I think Tom was a great developmental prospect who received the best coaching possible from Bill and Charlie, he also had great blocking, good weapons, great defense and special teams. BB hired all of the guys responsible for what I just described.

Right but if hiring is your major point, then who cares what Kraft did after? He hired the guy that made all the decisions correctly.

I agree, everything is usually great surrounding Brady. I think some of that is enhanced with Brady’s presence as well. It’s hard to see what they are, what BBs record and past is without Brady and say Brady was only 10-15% of the success though. They were a top 8 offense and top 2 defense (depending metric) with solid quarterback play and offensive line and really weren’t close to competing at the highest level

 

[Ian]

I get all that. I just don't believe Thornton wasn't going to be there at #54. I also like the 3 receivers taken almost immediately after better.

Any projections for Thornton's rookie season production?

You don't know that - Pittsburgh was ahead of New England at #52 and reportedly had him as the guy they wanted.

As for projections, I don't have any yet. I don't even know how he's going to see the field given the current group of receivers. DeVante Parker's addition took care of the Harry dilemma, but now they're over one guy and I'm waiting to see how things will shake out. I'm assuming the coaching staff wants to see the kid in minicamp and OTAs before they start formulating a plan.

 

[Ian]

BB haters are in total denial that he not only drafted Brady, rostered him with 4 QB's on the depth chart, but then moved him up to backup QB right behind Drew. Then ultimately stuck with him even though he'd told Michael Holly prior to that that he preferred Tom's consistency and efficiency over Drew. If they didn't draft Tom and he went undrafted BB may have brought him in as an UDFA... then they'd say he was lucky Tom chose them.

Who is more responsible for the dynasty?

I'll give it to the guy who hired Brady.

Just to follow up - we also have to give Robert Kraft some credit. Belichick was in year two and was coming off a 5-11 season and they were 3-4 through October with all this going on. Kraft could have easily stepped in and messed with things and he didn't.

 

[Wozzy]

But you've got such a firm enough handle on all of it where you're certain Strange was a first rounder and the trade up for Thornton was necessary? lol

I never said I did, the Patriots did. But I did do a deep dive on OL before the draft, Cole Strange was one of the top ranked linemen on my board and easily the best guard along with Zion Johnson. Simple athleticism, measurables and production at both college and the Senior Bowl told me that.

Of course you didn't. You only called pro executives who are the products of nepotism boobs.

No, I said many NFL executives are boobs... some the result of nepotism or blindspots by owners.

How do you know Steven Belichick's primary qualification isn't just being Bill's son? You think the relationship is a coincidence?

BB was the son of a coach, so was Rex and Rob Ryan, Kyle Shanahan, David and Mike Shula, Brian Robiskie, Wade Phillips, Nate Carroll... these guys should have been discriminated against because their dads were in the league first? I've seen video of BB teaching Steven when he was a middle school kid... he had some great education along the way... more than most.

They won 10 games and made the postseason last season. With the Belichicks and the additions of Patricia and Judge to the coaching staff, and the brilliant 2022 draft class, only great things are ahead.

Nothing is written.

On the contrary, I'm following the scoreboard. Belichick flunked out in his first go-round as a head coach... he wasn't the first or last to do so.

BB is the winningest coach in history... follow the scoreboard.

And right, it was a colossal blunder letting Brady walk for nothing. One they let him leave and two they got zero compensation. How dumb is that? Seriously how is it you're left with literally nothing after the GOAT quarterback leaves your franchise? Once you've made your decision that you're not bringing him back, how is it that you willfully put yourself in a position where compensation isn't possible? Another example of the in the best interest of team line being bs.

Brady was a good soldier here, he deserved the right to go out on his own terms. I suspect you'd prefer NE be like Detroit holding Barry Sanders and Calvin Johnson hostage at the end of their careers so they retired prematurely. Hell Tampa tried to pull that nonsense with Tom and he retired, only to un-retire when Tampa agreed to fire the coach. I'd rather my organization do the honorable thing, rather than be petty to the greatest player in franchise history.

The major flaw with your argument here is Belichick has nothing to do with the Cleveland Browns who didn't win a playoff game until 2020. His team, with the same owner Art Modell (through 2003), moved to Baltimore where after cleaning up Belichick's mess for a few seasons went on to to win many playoff games and Super Bowls.

The GM of those Championship teams, the guy BB hired to run personnel Ozzie Newsome, credits BB for setting them up for success and creating the blueprint to win. He's right... you're a clueless hater.

If you want to believe they were deflating footballs then yes that's got to be mostly on Brady. I'm sure Belichick would have known about it but Brady would have to be the one providing his PSI preference. If it was happening then it wasn't amounting to anything. Brady's been more consistently successful with 2 different teams since the controversy.

I think Deflategate and Spygate were both a result of the league enforcing parity on a team that had just won three rings or was about to again, who had gone undefeated in 2007 and both times had two #1 picks to spend the subsequent draft...

The owners wanted to level the playing field and put a restrictor plate on far and away the best team by docking them a #1 pick. But you putting the blame of BB for one of those infractions that the entire league was guilty of, while conveniently ignoring Tom's supposed involvement in another shows yet again a clear bias towards Tom and a clear agenda of hate for BB. Your bias is showing... again.

 

[Wozzy]

Just to follow up - we also have to give Robert Kraft some credit. Belichick was in year two and was coming off a 5-11 season and they were 3-4 through October with all this going on. Kraft could have easily stepped in and messed with things and he didn't.

Agreed, I think Kraft is a really smart guy who understood it takes time to build a team.

Which is what fans should consider now in this post Brady rebuild.

 

[Wozzy]

You're forgetting to give Belichick credit for Brady's success in Tampa Bay.

BB sat down with Tom every week for twenty years and taught him how to disseminate a defense.

It goes without saying...

Even if you think Tom arrived here when his alien parents put him on a spaceship and sent him hurtling towards Earth.

 

[Wozzy]

Right but if hiring is your major point, then who cares what Kraft did after? He hired the guy that made all the decisions correctly.

I agree, everything is usually great surrounding Brady. I think some of that is enhanced with Brady’s presence as well. It’s hard to see what they are, what BBs record and past is without Brady and say Brady was only 10-15% of the success though. They were a top 8 offense and top 2 defense (depending metric) with solid quarterback play and offensive line and really weren’t close to competing at the highest level

BB was GM but also the coach.

Brady had great teams, O-Lines, Defenses and Special team units around him for two decades. They were coached to the nth degree.

That doesn't happen on the Cardinals or some other bottom dweller at that time... it simply doesn't.

 

[Wozzy]

We're not going down the road of BB vs TB again and how bad BB is. Let's just move on.

Any thread that Crawdaddy gets involved in becomes a Brady ***********... without exception, every time.

 

[All3Phases]

BB was GM but also the coach.

Brady had great teams, O-Lines, Defenses and Special team units around him for two decades. They were coached to the nth degree.

That doesn't happen on the Cardinals or some other bottom dweller at that time... it simply doesn't.

I don’t think I ever said he’d be as successful elsewhere, but I don’t think giving him 10% credit is fair either. Simply based on numbers and what we’ve seen with/without. If they don’t draft Brady, who knows what happens…BB could’ve been fired and Brady might not have made the league. But again, focusing on the supporting cast here isn’t a great argument imo. I do agree, you need the team to be successful, but what I think you skip over is how having Brady could’ve helped other units look better than they were, or for us to at least talk about them more. Like I said, this year all we talk about is how the defense crumbled, the team fell apart and couldn’t score against good teams. They had good units statistically, the outcome wasn’t the same as most years during the dynasty. To me, I think it’s obvious why. But I respect your opinion in disagreeing. I just think given how important the qb is, 10% is insultingly low

 

[BradytoMosstoGronk]

We're not going down the road of BB vs TB again and how bad BB is. Let's just move on.

Almost every opportunity to slip it in, we have a select poster or two that drop a BB/TB powder keg and light a match.

So, how do you grade this year's draft?
"Well, let me first start with the source: Tom V Bill"

 

[Wozzy]

I don’t think I ever said he’d be as successful elsewhere, but I don’t think giving him 10% credit is fair either.

I didn't give Tom credit for 10%, I said all QB's.

Most QB's are not nearly as good as Tom or Mahomes or Rogers... those guys get less credit. QB is one position on a 53 man roster in a sport with three phases who only plays one of them. QB's are the most important position, they're also wholly overrated by fans. You can get by with "good" not "great" QB play if the rest of your team is great... conversely the best QB in the league (Brees in 2016/Watson in 2020) can be on a losing team because their team is bad.

Simply based on numbers and what we’ve seen with/without. If they don’t draft Brady, who knows what happens…BB could’ve been fired and Brady might not have made the league. But again, focusing on the supporting cast here isn’t a great argument imo. I do agree, you need the team to be successful, but what I think you skip over is how having Brady could’ve helped other units look better than they were, or for us to at least talk about them more. Like I said, this year all we talk about is how the defense crumbled, the team fell apart and couldn’t score against good teams. They had good units statistically, the outcome wasn’t the same as most years during the dynasty. To me, I think it’s obvious why. But I respect your opinion in disagreeing. I just think given how important the qb is, 10% is insultingly low

Tom Brady has one less ring if you take away the Pats kicker in 2001, has one less ring if you take Seymour away from an otherwise average and undersized collection of DT's in 2001. There's two player they wouldn't have won a ring without from 2001... that can be said about every ring they ever won. There were lynchpin guys all across their depth chart they would not have won without. After Gronk got hurt and missed the playoffs in 2016 they wouldn't have won without Martellus Bennett... he was crucial for them in the playoffs. It's a team sport, Brady wasn't the only crucial or clutch player necessary on any of those championship teams.

 

[Bombdog]

TBD lets see them on the field first

 

[All3Phases]

I didn't give Tom credit for 10%, I said all QB's.

Most QB's are not nearly as good as Tom or Mahomes or Rogers... those guys get less credit. QB is one position on a 53 man roster in a sport with three phases who only plays one of them. QB's are the most important position, they're also wholly overrated by fans. You can get by with "good" not "great" QB play if the rest of your team is great... conversely the best QB in the league (Brees in 2016/Watson in 2020) can be on a losing team because their team is bad.

Tom Brady has one less ring if you take away the Pats kicker in 2001, has one less ring if you take Seymour away from an otherwise average and undersized collection of DT's in 2001. There's two player they wouldn't have won a ring without from 2001... that can be said about every ring they ever won. There were lynchpin guys all across their depth chart they would not have won without. After Gronk got hurt and missed the playoffs in 2016 they wouldn't have won without Martellus Bennett... he was crucial for them in the playoffs. It's a team sport, Brady wasn't the only crucial or clutch player necessary on any of those championship teams.

The rosters changed every year, in 18 years they went to 13 CCGs, 9 sbs, won 6. The common denominator across all of them was Brady and BB. Separated their success is much different. So I’d think having Brady was more of a lynchpin than the rest.

I think your 2nd paragraph kind of proves my point, of course other guys helped. To deny that is idiotic, but I think it’s also fair to say that Brady’s presence helped elevate the team around him as well. My previous example is a good one. The 2021 team had solid qb play, a top 2 defense, top 8 offense, and good oline. Why was there such a massive drop off to previous success?

 

[crawhammer]

We're not going down the road of BB vs TB again and how bad BB is. Let's just move on.

Fine with me. There really won't be anything new to add to that argument until next season is underway.

You don't know that - Pittsburgh was ahead of New England at #52 and reportedly had him as the guy they wanted.

Right, I haven't seen confirmation either way. At this point I'm sticking with my belief that Thornton would have still been there at 54... it's where the collective information takes me.

As for projections, I don't have any yet. I don't even know how he's going to see the field given the current group of receivers. DeVante Parker's addition took care of the Harry dilemma, but now they're over one guy and I'm waiting to see how things will shake out. I'm assuming the coaching staff wants to see the kid in minicamp and OTAs before the start formulating a plan.

Thornton seems like the Agholor replacement. However, I'm not sure how they're removing Agholor from the equation.

Brady was a good soldier here, he deserved the right to go out on his own terms. I suspect you'd prefer NE be like Detroit holding Barry Sanders and Calvin Johnson hostage at the end of their careers so they retired prematurely. Hell Tampa tried to pull that nonsense with Tom and he retired, only to un-retire when Tampa agreed to fire the coach. I'd rather my organization do the honorable thing, rather than be petty to the greatest player in franchise history.

I don't care what happened in Detroit. Brady wasn't retiring, he was going to play somewhere in 2021, and the Patriots had the ability to control his exit. Instead they let him walk for "old times sake." Sorry Tom, you're an asset to the franchise who will be of significant value to some other team who will be willing to provide due compensation.

What Brady did in Tampa Bay was totally different. In hindsight he didn't ever say "I'm retiring" so it was evident he was trying to exit Tampa Bay for an opportunity elsewhere. Good on Tampa Bay for not letting him get away with it. They had all the leverage by virtue of the contract and used it to force Brady into returning. He probably made an argument for moving on from Arians but he would have come back either way.

The GM of those Championship teams, the guy BB hired to run personnel Ozzie Newsome, credits BB for setting them up for success and creating the blueprint to win. He's right... you're a clueless hater.

Wow you're spreading the Belichick credit pretty thin. Is there any team in the league where he's not somehow responsible for their success?

I think Deflategate and Spygate were both a result of the league enforcing parity on a team that had just won three rings or was about to again, who had gone undefeated in 2007 and both times had two #1 picks to spend the subsequent draft...

The owners wanted to level the playing field and put a restrictor plate on far and away the best team by docking them a #1 pick. But you putting the blame of BB for one of those infractions that the entire league was guilty of, while conveniently ignoring Tom's supposed involvement in another shows yet again a clear bias towards Tom and a clear agenda of hate for BB. Your bias is showing... again.

The actual accusation of Spygate actually happened... I don't think anyone is disputing that (including BB). They did it, they got caught, they paid a price. Disputing the merits of the punishment is another conversation.

I don't think Deflategate is all that clear. The only thing the court validated was Goodell could do whatever he wanted as stipulated in the CBA. What actually happened with the PSI in the footballs is still highly debatable. Brady never admitted to it and there hasn't been confirmation from anyone else. If you're asking for my opinion, then it seems likely there was some tampering with the footballs in that timeframe, but again it's been proven to have been of no consequence (other than Brady actually plays better with regularly inflated footballs).

BB sat down with Tom every week for twenty years and taught him how to disseminate a defense.

So he was coaching? Wow, hadn't thought of that before.