The sad state of the Pats Safeties

[Deus Irae]

Let's not forget that Bodden was out the whole season and Wilhite missed at least half the season. That's a lot of injuries at CB. With Butler missing some games and regressing, who else did we have outside of our starters McCourty and Arrington? We had plenty of depth at safety but not at CB. That's why we didn't use extra corners. This year, we're reloaded.

I agree that Bodden being out impacted the depth, but let's not blow smoke here. Arrington was a desperation move made because Butler was getting abused like a red-headed stepchild on too many occasions. Wilhite wasn't exactly setting the world on fire before the injury, and either he or Butler could be in trouble when it comes to the numbers game this year.

McCourty
Arrington
Butler
Wilhite
McCourty
Dowling
Bodden

Unless BB changes his mind about Dowling, and has him cross-training as a rookie, someone's probably going to be playing elsewhere in 2011, and you can be pretty darned sure that it's going to be one of the bottom 3 from last year (Arrington/Butler/Wilhite), because they weren't good enough.

 

[patriot lifer]

I agree that Bodden being out impacted the depth, but let's not blow smoke here. Arrington was a desperation move made because Butler was getting abused like a red-headed stepchild on too many occasions. Wilhite wasn't exactly setting the world on fire before the injury, and either he or Butler could be in trouble when it comes to the numbers game this year.

McCourty
Arrington
Butler
Wilhite
McCourty
Dowling
Bodden

Unless BB changes his mind about Dowling, and has him cross-training as a rookie, someone's probably going to be playing elsewhere in 2011, and you can be pretty darned sure that it's going to be one of the bottom 3 from last year (Arrington/Butler/Wilhite), because they weren't good enough.

Definitely right about CB this year, some guys are being cut or traded. There's no way around it other than injuries and/or roster expansion.

I still say, if healthy, Wilhite would have gotten the nod over Chung to play Nickel. Wilhite might not be anything special, but I think he'd do better than Chung playing Nickel. And I don't think we were doing too bad last year with Wilhite being the #3 (consider what most teams have). It's not like we were asking him to start (Arrington on the other hand...).

 

[Oswlek]

Chung sucks in coverage, which is actually a damning indictment of the Patriots corners, considering how often the team went with extra safeties on passing downs instead of extra corners. That said, he showed improvement last year compared to his rookie season, where he couldn't cover a dead man in a phone booth.

Chung sucked against the slot guys last year, no doubt about it But I see things more on the Professor Frink side of things. Not many strong safeties in this league would make a good nickleback. With better CB depth, Chung can play a role he is more suited for where his coverage, while not being great, will be adequate.

Judging by the eagerness of some posters to dump Meriweather, one would think he is the worst player on the team. I think he is a good player and I am glad he is on the team

I don't think you understand arbitrage. I'm not interested in trading Brandon because he isn't a viable player. I just don't think he is that much better than the other options. Combined with the fact that his leaguewide perceived value is pretty high means he might offer more as trade bait than on the field.

I certainly wouldn't accept a 4th rounder for him.

The rest, like Page, McGowan, and Brown are all more SS/run support guys. None of them is a good as Merriweather in coverage.

Is Page a run support guy? He looks like someone who could play Meriweather's role to me.

 

[s3antana5757]

There is nothing sad about the Pats safeties. Chung could become a star this year, and if he's healthy, I think he will be. Page and Sanders are both very strong back-ups. I think BB likes Page alot and he could play a large role this season.

And on to Meriweather. I think the screw-up this off-season may lead to his outs. Also, his value on the market is greater than what it truly is. If you can sell $1 for a $1.50, you do it. It only takes one team to overpay. Houston, Dallas, Indianapolis could all think they're a safety away form contention and pony up a nice pick.

 

[Oswlek]

I agree that Bodden being out impacted the depth, but let's not blow smoke here. Arrington was a desperation move made because Butler was getting abused like a red-headed stepchild on too many occasions. Wilhite wasn't exactly setting the world on fire before the injury, and either he or Butler could be in trouble when it comes to the numbers game this year.

McCourty
Arrington
Butler
Wilhite
McCourty
Dowling
Bodden

Unless BB changes his mind about Dowling, and has him cross-training as a rookie, someone's probably going to be playing elsewhere in 2011, and you can be pretty darned sure that it's going to be one of the bottom 3 from last year (Arrington/Butler/Wilhite), because they weren't good enough.

I agree and disagree. Bodden's absence along with Butler's disappearance pushed everyone two spots higher than they should have been last year. That said, the time helped Arrington develop into a solid #4-#3 guy. That, along with his special teams makes Arrington a roster lock, IMO. You know that I also disagree with you on Wilhite about how he played, but I do see him on the bubble based on Butler and Dowling's play.

 

[s3antana5757]

People also forget that Bodden was great for the Browns before going to Detroit where they thought he could play in zone coverage. He got a massive contract to go there, which was indicative of his play. NE got a great deal on him because your value diminishes greatly when you go 0-16.

 

[Observer]

I don't think you understand arbitrage. I'm not interested in trading Brandon because he isn't a viable player. I just don't think he is that much better than the other options. Combined with the fact that his leaguewide perceived value is pretty high means he might offer more as trade bait than on the field.

I certainly wouldn't accept a 4th rounder for him.

My comment wasn't directed towards anything you said or even anything in particular that has been mentioned in this thread. It was rather aimed at the cumulative history of all the flak that Meriweather has received on this forum over time.

Unfortunately for him he has had issues off the field which have made him a target and along with that he has had a few memorable blunders on the field. Bud aside from that he has played I believe in every single game since his debut, led the team in interceptions, been mostly free of injury and plays for a large number of snaps each game. He has i believe been consistently among the top in terms of number of tackles as well; which may well come by virtue of his position and snap count but nonetheless are a positive sign.

Lets suppose as you said that we trade Meriweather because he is valued higher than what he is worth. But now that leaves us with one less safety. Where are we going to find one to replace Meriweather? Don't tell me Ras-I Dowling because he is a completely unknown quantity. And trading for draft pick in the hopes of converting that into a safety is even more fraught with peril. If we traded Meriweather then I am afraid our "sad state" as mentioned by the OP in exaggeration might become reality.

Say we traded Meriweather for some other safety in the league - one for one. Who do you think we would get in return that would be reasonable (clearly we wouldn't get Polamalu, for instance)?

 

[Brady2Welker]

Meriweather is pretty bad, so I can't really disagree with this.

 

[NSPF]

Meriweather certainly can be a little too hit-or-miss (sometimes literally), but overall he's usually pretty good in coverage and run support. Watching Chung getting abused in the slot lowered my opinion of him, perhaps unfairly because he might have been considered to be playing out of position. Although I love his physicality and energy, he's still really only potential at this point; I don't think he's proved that he can be a consistant quality starter yet. Sanders is, as we've been told thousands of times, rock solid, and occasionally comes up with the big play (ie. the Manning interception). The guys rounding out the bottom of the depth chart are definitely well above average for back-ups.

Overall, I think we could be doing a lot worse. It's impossible to be stacked at every position, so I think in terms of overall team chemistry our safeties work for us, which is what ultimately matters. There's definitely no good reason to call it a "sad state."

 

[Deus Irae]

I agree and disagree. Bodden's absence along with Butler's disappearance pushed everyone two spots higher than they should have been last year. That said, the time helped Arrington develop into a solid #4-#3 guy. That, along with his special teams makes Arrington a roster lock, IMO. You know that I also disagree with you on Wilhite about how he played, but I do see him on the bubble based on Butler and Dowling's play.

But you can't accurately claim that Butler's disappearance pushed anyone higher, because Butler didn't disappear. He underperformed. That's really kind of the point, because that's a player failure, not a depth chart issue. Butler should have been starting, but he crapped out early and went into such a funk that he ended up barely hanging on for playing time. And, while Bodden's loss certainly hurt, McCourty played far above what was expected of him.

 

[supafly]

Count me in as one who feels as though Meriweather stays here one more yr, and also one who feels as though he tends to get a poor rap on these boards. Personally, I don't think it's really even much of a debate to be honest. I also think that the defensive snap count pretty much proves that Belichick thinks higher of him than we do.

Yes, he has taken bad angles and missed some tackles, but when you pair that up against his solid playmaking ability, decent coverage, superior quickness, and the fact that he has never missed a game here, it becomes pretty obvious who is the best safety (IMO).

Chung has great upside, sure, but as some pointed out--he hasn't exactly given us too much confidence in coverage so far. I believe that with another yr in the system, and some added coaching/experience that he can make better strides in his coverage, but he's certainly not there yet.

As for the rest of the group--we have a great veteran leader in Sanders, who's best attribute is his intelligence and ability to QB the secondary calls. We also have very decent depth guys in Page/McGowan (one or the other, as I highly doubt both stay). We also have Belichick's binky Josh Barrett, who may be able to show us something more, but supposedly has good upside. And finally, we saw a somewhat decent year for a rookie with Sergio Brown, who certainly at least provides good value and depth. I believe that Ventrone is on his way out, but I could be wrong. I question keeping more than 5 total.

Meriweather
Chung
Sanders
Either McGowan/Page
Either Barrett/Brown
Ventrone gone

I think when you just look at the guys that will likely be cut, you see that our overall depth is pretty darn good. Therefore, I strongly disagree with the notion that our safety issue is in a 'sad state.' I think that's ridiculous.

 

[Triumph]

Typical NE, puritan negative reaction. You compare Harrison, who should be a HOFer, with our current Safeties and find them wanting. What a shock! I'm guessing you can do the same for 95% of the rest of the league's safeties as well.

For your next post you might think about talking about how disappointing it is that it might rain soon.

Hilarious coming out of you after your annual post draft rant.

Just pointing out what a rare player Harrison was in that he was great in coverage and in the box. None of the current NE Safeties are really good at both.

 

[Oswlek]

But you can't accurately claim that Butler's disappearance pushed anyone higher, because Butler didn't disappear. He underperformed. That's really kind of the point, because that's a player failure, not a depth chart issue. Butler should have been starting, but he crapped out early and went into such a funk that he ended up barely hanging on for playing time. And, while Bodden's loss certainly hurt, McCourty played far above what was expected of him.

Why not? The coaches clearly went into the season hoping Butler would step into Bodden's shoes. When he didn't, that pushed Arrington into the #2 spot (two spots higher than he was during the early parts of camp). Wilhite, being one spot behind Arrington was also moved up. Not sure how that is inaccurate in any way.

As for Mcourty, sure he replaced Bodden and had a hell of a season, but his play had no impacted on the depth chart behind him. Arrington still found himself at #2 when the plan was for him to be at #4. :confused2:

 

[Oswlek]

Hilarious coming out of you after your annual post draft rant.

Just pointing out what a rare player Harrison was in that he was great in coverage and in the box. None of the current NE Safeties are really good at both.

Harrison is the only DB in the history of the game to have 30 career sacks and 30 career interceptions. I hope you are still around in a few years to offer insightful commentary on how Brady's replacement isn't as good as perhaps the best QB to ever play the game. :bricks:

 

[Oswlek]

My comment wasn't directed towards anything you said or even anything in particular that has been mentioned in this thread. It was rather aimed at the cumulative history of all the flak that Meriweather has received on this forum over time.

Unfortunately for him he has had issues off the field which have made him a target and along with that he has had a few memorable blunders on the field. Bud aside from that he has played I believe in every single game since his debut, led the team in interceptions, been mostly free of injury and plays for a large number of snaps each game. He has i believe been consistently among the top in terms of number of tackles as well; which may well come by virtue of his position and snap count but nonetheless are a positive sign.

Lets suppose as you said that we trade Meriweather because he is valued higher than what he is worth. But now that leaves us with one less safety. Where are we going to find one to replace Meriweather? Don't tell me Ras-I Dowling because he is a completely unknown quantity. And trading for draft pick in the hopes of converting that into a safety is even more fraught with peril. If we traded Meriweather then I am afraid our "sad state" as mentioned by the OP in exaggeration might become reality.

Say we traded Meriweather for some other safety in the league - one for one. Who do you think we would get in return that would be reasonable (clearly we wouldn't get Polamalu, for instance)?

OK gotcha.

As for "who replaces Brandon" that isn't a big deal, IMO. Assuming NE's CBs are healthy and deeper (and perhaps even better in Butler's case), then that frees up Chung from his nickleback duties, which essentially adds another safety to the rotation. I also got the sense that Page was encroaching on Brandon's minutes before getting hurt, and I think he could be a surprising factor this year.

 

[borg]

How can a "Beast" be a "Beast" if he sucks in coverage? Is he a two down "Beast".....aka....2/3s "Beast"...1/3 "Liability"???
If a "Beast" fails on 3rd down, do you hear a sound in the woods?
Why did the "Beast" cross the field?...To get off the field on third down.
Don't forget to tip your server!

 

[AzPatsFan]

I don't accept the premise.

 

[spacecrime]

How can a "Beast" be a "Beast" if he sucks in coverage?

**** Butkis would like to have a word with you.

 

[spacecrime]

I don't think you understand arbitrage. I'm not interested in trading Brandon because he isn't a viable player. I just don't think he is that much better than the other options. Combined with the fact that his leaguewide perceived value is pretty high means he might offer more as trade bait than on the field.

I certainly wouldn't accept a 4th rounder for him.

Have to enjoy a post that uses arbitrage.

On topic, Meriweather played more minutes than any other Pats safety last year, and Chung was up there in minutes played also. Result was that the Pats went 14-2. Doesn't that point to the efficacy of the Pats safety use and rotation?

Sometimes I think people want all-Pros at all 22 starting postions, and probowlers as backups.

 

[sbpatfan]

The funny thing is Chung gave up a hell of a lot more TDs and bad plays than Meriweather yet everyone is ready to hang Meri and get on their knees for Chung.

I like 'em both, and think Chung has more potential. Plus he brings a certain fire to the defense at times. But Meriweather was clearly the best safety this team had last year.