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Why are people in love with Tebow's "wins"?


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Orton was close to leading the league in INts. so... it was a huge deal in Denver. you can talk about completion rates. Ben had a 55%? and they lost? Tebow had a 125 QB rating vs Bens 80?. meaning he was the better QB in that game. Pass completion % doesnt really matter when you run a version of the spread option. The decisions the QB makes are what matters.
I must have missed the Broncos Defense playing like a bunch of ******s during Orton's tenure this season. Granted Orton was playing poorly, but so was the D.

Tebow was better than R-Burger in their contest. Tebow also completed less than 50% of his passes and was the beneficiary of some great receiver play, making some good plays himself and the Steelers spastic scheme.

Tell yourself pass completions don't matter all you like.
 
Every QB in the NFL does that. The good ones still complete >60% of their passes. Tebow is a good player, but he's an absolutely terrible passer. One of the worst in the league.

stafford does that with one of the best WR in the league and he is watching the playoffs from his couch.

in the spread option. its about decision making. And thats where tebow thrives.
 
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stafford does that with one of the best WR in the league and he is watching the playoffs from his couch.

in the spread option. its about decision making. And thats where tebow thrives.
Matthew Stafford just played the New Orleans Saints (a top 3 team in football) in New Orleans. That's a bit different to playing Pittsburgh at home wouldn't you agree?
 
The OP compared Tebow to Vince Young, some delusional posters tried comparing him to Brady. I always thought he compared to Ray Lucas at QB.

Tebow's numbers this year leading his team to an 8-8 record:

7 wins 4 losses 126 completions 271 attempts 46.5% 1729 yards 12 TD 6 INT

Ray Lucas '99 season with the Jets leading his team to an 8-8 record.

6 wins 3 losses 161 completions 272 attempts 59.2% 1678 yards 14 TD 6 INT

Lucas won 2 more games as a starting QB the rest of his career.
 
The OP compared Tebow to Vince Young, some delusional posters tried comparing him to Brady. I always thought he compared to Ray Lucas at QB.

Tebow's numbers this year leading his team to an 8-8 record:

7 wins 4 losses 126 completions 271 attempts 46.5% 1729 yards 12 TD 6 INT

Ray Lucas '99 season with the Jets leading his team to an 8-8 record.

6 wins 3 losses 161 completions 272 attempts 59.2% 1678 yards 14 TD 6 INT

Lucas won 2 more games as a starting QB the rest of his career.

lucas never broke playoff records or even had nearly as many rushing tds as tim has. why would even try to compare the 2.

insult to tebow.
 
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neither tebow or ben did good, but as a starting qb less than 50% is pitiful. Winning the game doesn't change the fact he's inaccurate

Completion percentage does not equal accuracy, either.
 
Every QB in the NFL does that. The good ones still complete >60% of their passes. Tebow is a good player, but he's an absolutely terrible passer. One of the worst in the league.

Obviously not, because Ben didn't and you're probably only analyzing things at face value like a lot of others when making that statement. I disagree completely and this is why other analyst like Skip Bayless fly off the handle and so adamantly disagree with those saying it. It's just false and it's not what makes a good or bad passer.

Those stats you look at are summation stats. They count things and are to be used in combination with other stats for other types of analysis. They are not meant to be used to compare one QB to another in that particular category and rate their "passer" status. A completion % number by itself cannot tell you how accurate a quarterback is, how good a decision he makes, or even how he compares to other QB's if you only use their completion %. They don't explain under what type of situation the completion, incompletion, sack, or interception took place. For one thing it's also 50% dependent on the receiver for any quarterback. Your receiver's own ability to catch the ball makes up half of that completion percentage. It doesn't tell you how many of those were purposely thrown away, how many were not. It really says little to nothing about decision making for the individual quarterback.

When you are talking about 2 pass completions being the difference between being a 47% and a 55% passer, and it just so happens one of those is an interception, then it makes no sense to say it's bad to come out with 0 interception and 2 completions less than the guy who throws 1 pick. None. If you analyze the game and you are backed up in your own territory, the reward of any completion that may even go for 10+ yards or a first down, does not really outweigh the risk of the odds of throwing an interception, especially in a tied game.

This is why you have so many 55% and even 60%-65% passers in the NFL that can't make the correct decisions when the game is on the line and always end up with average careers. Or they can sometimes, but aren't consistent enough in doing it game after game, pass after pass, regular seasons, playoff, super bowl, etc. Tony Romo is a perfect example. I highly doubt the Cowboys will ever get deep in the playoffs with this guy, who is putting up the numbers to keep his job and even get thrown in to elite passer conversations but just isn't able to make those correct decisions consistently under high pressure situations.

That's why what Brady did in his first super bowl was considered so amazing. The risk-reward for passing in that situation to move the chains backed up in his own territory with short passes required such a low margin of error for it to make any kind of sense. Throwing a pick or even getting stopped in that situation, effectively ends the game because both, a 3 and out as well as an interception or fumble, would likely result with great field position for the opponent to put up the winning FG. That's why Tebow's pass in OT was so incredible. It's such a high risk call down the middle. You still have to pass through or over traffic and you still need to have nerves of steel and simply be absolutely spot on with your throw.

Again I point to the example between that pass which Tebow nailed in stride or the one he "missed" on 3rd and long with the game tied, and the one Ben threw off of his back foot, that was only half a second too late and ended up behind his receiver allowing it to be picked off. THAT's inaccurate. THAT's bad passing. That's also bad decision making. That's also inconsistency in decision making. And that wasn't the only one for Ben. The lateral pass, Ben admits in NFL's "miced up film" that he was trying to throw the ball away. It almost ended up in a fumble and backwards pass. Instead of throwing it at your receiver like that, he should have thrown it over the top and out of bounds, or short of his receiver in the grass. Instead he threw it at him and the guy caught it and got clobbered by the defender who had the jump on him, almost resulting in what should have been a turnover. Bad decision making on Ben's part. It's just not advisable to force a completion in that situation, and if you're going to throw the ball away, then throw the ball away definitively.

You really believe Tebow can make a perfect pass as accurately as he did in OT, hitting his receiver in stride which was all on him, not his receiver, but he can't complete a much simpler pass in regular time when he has a clear lane, no one in front of him and plenty of time to throw? What would be the explanation? He farted? His arm has jerks that just show up at times and makes the ball fly out of bounds or on the ground but magically always seems to be out of reach of any defenders who have their eyes on it?

But it's pretty clear to me how much confidence Fox and his OC have in Tebow as a passer, and to be accurate if they make that call. Defense biting on the run aside, the only type of throw that really makes sense to make in that situation is a deep ball, not a short one down the middle in traffic which is what Tebow did. And you usually do it on 3rd down, not 1st down. That's why Pittsburg did what they did.

It's not simply that they didn't expect Tebow to throw, but it's also such a high risk call, from a play calling and coaching perspective. It only makes sense to call it as a means of surprise, but it requires you have an incredible amount of confidence in your quarterback to not make a mistake, and not so much complete the pass but AVOID the interception. That's what it mainly requires. The ability to first, avoid the interception, at all costs first. Completion, and yards after catch comes second in that situation and are more of an afterthought.

Tebow has some of the same exact abilities that Brady does. His ability to remain calm under pressure, understand the game, and knowing when it's ok to take a risk that might end up in an incompletion and when it's not ok to take a risk, needs to be credited. Those are part of a quarterback's job and don't just happen at random. There is a science behind it and they do teach them this. People see Tebow as some kind of a ******ed passer out there. Not the case at all. He's very intelligent with a good football IQ.

That's really the mark of a great quarterback. Not so much the result that may occur due to a decision made. Understanding those things and many others. Being able to keep track of all those things in your head, while not letting it slow your game down and slow down your decision making, or affect your timing and accuracy.

Being able to process in your head, the down, distance, location, risk-reward, expected outcome of the pass, identifying the coverage and the match-up, then recalculating all of those things in the span of a second without letting it affect anything is the difference between Tom Brady and, for example, a gunslinger like Bret Farve.

Some guys just let go of all those things, say screw it and throw it up. Other guys like Brady just get even better at doing all those things, without ever having to say "screw it, I'm going to just blindly let it rip." Tebow's the type of player that's proving he can do things like that and is only getting better.
 
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lucas never broke playoff records or even had nearly as many rushing tds as tim has. why would even try to compare the 2.

insult to tebow.

Similar skill set, similar numbers, similar player. Like it or not.
 
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Brady
Montana
Young
Manning
Elway...(Rodgers is on his heels though and still very young)

Young???????????????????????????????????
 
Obviously not, because Ben didn't and you're probably only analyzing things at face value like a lot of others when making that statement. I disagree completely and this is why other analyst like Skip Bayless fly off the handle and so adamantly disagree with those saying it. It's just false and it's not what makes a good or bad passer.
You aren't really calling Skip Bayless an ANALYST are you? He is an act, who simply finds hot button issues and takes a side then selects a couple of facts to argue and ignores the rest.

I'll leave the rest alone, because we have already discussed it and I couldn't disagree more.
 
You aren't really calling Skip Bayless an ANALYST are you? He is an act, who simply finds hot button issues and takes a side then selects a couple of facts to argue and ignores the rest.

You may be on to something here. Bayless does seem like an actor playing a role when he argues a point, or the captain of the debate team picking a side and then going all out to prove his point of view. He is so far over the top, I'm not sure how anyone could take him seriously. The vast majority of Bronco fans over on their forums don't like him despite his rabid defense of Tebow. Many of them believe that Bayless belittles the rest of the team in his defense of Tebow. I'll watch Skip for about five or ten minutes in the morning just to get a good laugh. His antics with Stephen A. Smith are amusing, but only in small doses.
 
The OP compared Tebow to Vince Young, some delusional posters tried comparing him to Brady. I always thought he compared to Ray Lucas at QB.

Tebow's numbers this year leading his team to an 8-8 record:

7 wins 4 losses 126 completions 271 attempts 46.5% 1729 yards 12 TD 6 INT

Ray Lucas '99 season with the Jets leading his team to an 8-8 record.

6 wins 3 losses 161 completions 272 attempts 59.2% 1678 yards 14 TD 6 INT

Lucas won 2 more games as a starting QB the rest of his career.

I don't know if there is a good example to compare Tebow to. He is very much unlike any other NFL QB.
Those that try to defend his poor throwing ability are just ignoring their eyes in an attempt to turn their argument that Tebow can be an effective QB into Tebow has no flaws which is silly.
Tebow is a poor passer. Even Tebow would agree with that in an honest moment. Can he improve? Sure, why not, but thats not real relevant to what he is now.
The detractors try to downplay what he does well, which is equally silly.

Tebows ability to run helps him overcome some of his throwing issues. The Steelers while disrespecting his ability to throw, respected his ability to run, and that opened up the passes he completed. It isn't a gift if they put 10 in the box and he throws well against little resistance, because he is the reason there are 10 in the box.
If you put Tebow in a traditional pass happy NFL offense, he would be worse than Mark Sanchez. No one who is honest about Tebow could possibly disagree with that. But that is not the offense Tebow is in, and the offense he is in is because of his strengths.

The other factor is that it would be ignorant to dismiss the leadership, work ethic and positive attitude that Tebow brings to a team, and all of those things make the team better.
Was Denver a good team this year? Not really. They got hot, won some close games and snuck in and got a playoff win.
That has probably happened to 40 teams in NFL history. For some reason, though, there is a contingent that wants people to believe that it is a once in a lifetime accomplishment.
Alex Smith turned his career around and led his previously woeful team to a 1st round bye. Yes, they had a great defense, but Smith had a better season as a QB than Tebow.
This is the rub with Tebow. The supporters think the detractors won't shut up, and the detractors think the supporters won't shut up. Those of us objectively taking no side wonder what all the fuss is about.
 
You may be on to something here. Bayless does seem like an actor playing a role when he argues a point, or the captain of the debate team picking a side and then going all out to prove his point of view. He is so far over the top, I'm not sure how anyone could take him seriously. The vast majority of Bronco fans over on their forums don't like him despite his rabid defense of Tebow. Many of them believe that Bayless belittles the rest of the team in his defense of Tebow. I'll watch Skip for about five or ten minutes in the morning just to get a good laugh. His antics with Stephen A. Smith are amusing, but only in small doses.

Bayless picks a side, normally the most controversial, in order to get the attention focussed on him.
It works.
Think Lebron James or Tebow, and Bayless and his outspoken controversial opinion comes to mind at once.
 
Bayless picks a side, normally the most controversial, in order to get the attention focussed on him.
It works.
Think Lebron James or Tebow, and Bayless and his outspoken controversial opinion comes to mind at once.

Yeah, Skippy went off on a Lebron rant this morning, right after his daily Tebow rant.
 
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You aren't really calling Skip Bayless an ANALYST are you? He is an act, who simply finds hot button issues and takes a side then selects a couple of facts to argue and ignores the rest.

I'll leave the rest alone, because we have already discussed it and I couldn't disagree more.

Yeah I am. And he is, a very good one and better than most football enthusiasts. He's just also a great entertainer.

He's not the only one that finds hot button issues. But when you have a guy that can pick-up on what most miss, and everyone else constantly criticizes him, while Skip can see through the usual stats or the illusion that can so easily be created in the NFL due to miss-used statistics(aka "Pats have the worst defense"), he's kind of forced to take that stance is he not?

Not to mention, they all, ESPN as a whole and their TV producers participate in deciding what topics they are going to debate. You are wrong to assume this is what "Skip" decides to debate. ESPN and TV ratings decide what Skip and Stephen A decide to debate.

In essence Tebow fans and Tebow haters decide that Skip and Stephen A are going to be debating. The more people that misunderstand why Tebow "just wins" by being such a "terrible passer" the more this goes on.

It will go away once Denver starts putting the right pieces around Tim and he starts winning with a higher compeltion %, which he is fully capable of doing. Then, no one will care anymore.

For now though I don't expect ESPN, Skip, or the crazy Tebowmania to slow down. Skip can very easily explain, if he wants to, and so can most of those guys, what Tebow does as a passer that would show he really isn't nowhere near what people perceive him as. But doing that, would kill the story and the ratings. Even Elway knows this. Elway most recently decided to make a comment refusing once again(after he already made a comment standing behind Tebow) to back his starter up. Saying they plan to evaluate everyone at the end of the season. This is after he just beat the Steelers. lol.

You really think they are not doing this for the ratings and money? If anyone honestly believes the Denver Broncos organization is going to do anything else other than start Tebow day 1 next year, you out of your minds. The TV ratings are beyond astronomical right now.

You'd have to be the dumbest manager on the planet to: 1) trade Tebow 2) let the general public know, you already know Tebow's a good passer which would effectively take away from the "aura" and slow down Tebowmania.

Come on folks. The NFL isn't just professional football. It's professional entertainment at its best and a billion dollar industry. It benefits the entire NFL as well as all other high profile players. The more ESPN people watch, the more NFL-backed commercials they watch. The more crap they buy. Everybody makes money. God bless the USA. Cue national anthem please. 3, 2, 1...
 
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You'd have to be the dumbest manager on the planet to: 1) trade Tebow 2) let the general public know, you already know Tebow's a good passer which would effectively take away from the "aura" and slow down Tebowmania.

Your opinion is noted. However, Skip argued this morning that Tebow should ask for or even demand a trade because of what Skip considers a locker room that is akin to a snakepit in Denver. He made these comments based on the rumors that Brady Quinn was given a package of plays last week prior to the Steelers game and that Tebow was on a short leash, that Quinn might have come in on 3rd downs which is sending a message to Tebow that he is not a capable passer or that he might have replaced Tebow completely if he struggled early. This is why Skip has the reputation that he has. He rants about how great Tebow is, he belittles the rest of the Denver players at times while making his points about Tebow, and he makes stupid comments like that Tebow should demand a trade because Elway and the organization are mistreating him. He flies from one extreme to the other. I don't care if he is knowledgeable or not about what he is ranting about. His rants are over the top, often childish and fluctuate so much that taking him seriously is difficult at best. Give me sharp, reasoned analysis any day over what Skip offers.
 
Good grief ... a few more days and this will all be over for us ... Tebow will be T-Boned.
 
Tebow is all the craze because of his loud out going religous beliefs..And his competitiveness. He is polarizing... Nothing else about the guy is special.. And the Mediots jumped his bones and for some reason he blew up over night... And the media probably knows his shelf life is very short so there taking advantage of the situation.

At first I was anti Tebowite... Now I kinda respect him just because of his fiery competitiveness.

But it would be hella embarrassing if we lose to him and the ponies.
 
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