Our Seven Man Secondary and Dowling (and the importance of ST players on a roster)

[mgteich]

7 defensive backs get almost all the reps, barring a couple of injuries: 4 corners and 3 safeties. The last 3 spots are special teams or a developmental player.

CORNER: Talib, Dennard, Arrington, Ryan
SAFETY: McCourty, Tavon, Wilson or Gregory
DEVELOPMENTAL: Harmon
ST: Cole, Ebner

Wilson could also make the team as our coverage linebacker.

I have seen the light. We don't need four positional safeties, unless one is developmental.
=======================

ONE POINT OF THE THREAD

Dowling can make the team by beating out one of the four above. Alternatively, he can beat out Cole or Ebner for a special team position. Obviously, an injury to someone else would help him in his quest for a roster spot. I would not be surprised to see Dowling on the IR or on the Practice Squad.

 

[Marqui]

Adrian Wilson is going to be on the team.

 

[realtime]

If Dowling is 100% for once, there is no reason he cannot beat out Ryan. Ryan, in turn, would then make the team over Cole or Ebner. But if Dowling doesn't come out of the gate strong or gets nicked up in the preseason, I think he is done in NE.

 

[Gronkandez]

Just start Ras-I on the PUP. It's not like he can last a whole season anyway, so might as well save him for the 2nd half of the year.

People are always getting injured so I'm sure he'll have a spot to play.

 

[Nunchucks]

Maybe McCourty gets moved back to CB? Maybe Gregory gets cut? I don't think Harmon is a "developmental" safety, I think he is fairly ready to play.

 

[VJCPatriot]

I feel a lot more confident with Logan Ryan backing up the Nickel/Slot position than Cole. As for Dowling, he has been a mess, mostly due to injuries. I will be pleasantly surprised if we break camp with him healthy and still on the 53 man roster.

 

[signbabybrady]

I think Tavon and Adrian should be switched. I would not be shocked to see Tavon win the spot but I think its Adrian's to lose. He is the vet with pro bowl experience and IMO its his spot until either we realize he doesn't have the range or until Tavon beats him(or Ebner or Hurmon beat him).

 

[VrabelJr]

Logan Ryan is a CB and Special Teamer as is Harmon so things probably shake up like this:

CB: Talib, Dennard, Arrington, Dowling, Ryan(ST)
S: McCourty, Adrian Wilson, Tavon Wilson, Harmon, Ebner(ST)

I think Cole and Gregory lose out in camp but are a Dowling/Talib injury away from getting a phone call.

 

[BradyManny]

I'm normally a big Reiss fan, but his overemphasis of the importance of ST-only players is spreading to the fanbase. I noticed his post today mentioned Cole's chances to make the roster. Considering the drafting of Ryan and retaining of every other CB on the team, let's hope his chances are slim.

Since when did playing ST well require an inability to contribute on offense or defense?

Cole got shredded in the AFCCG and the dropoff from Arrington to him was the main reason the defense lost its way in that game. In 33 snaps, Flacco was 5 of 6 for 62 yards and a TD against him.

We cannot rely on guys like Cole to play on defense in big games. We can't blame it away on injuries and just say that's the way it is in the NFL. The entire point of drafting a guy like Logan Ryan is that he projects as a solid CB who ALSO plays special teams. It's time our ST units be more valuable to our offensive & defensive units - and this draft, notably with Ryan & Harmon, aims to address that.

We've lost Super Bowl rings because we had STers playing starting roles in the final game of our season (Eric Alexander, Tracy White & Sterling Moore, Marquice Cole). Enough is enough.

And I don't think Belichick ever intended for this to be the case, it's just that other players didn't pan out. We can't read into it that he's perfectly content to roll out ST-only players in the biggest games of the season and watch them get torched by legitimate starting caliber players.

 

[mgteich]

Most of the fan base has understood the importance of special-teamers for decades. Whigham, Izzo, and Davis come to mind. If you would rather start Dowling on Special Teams, I can only say that this significantly decreases the strength of special teams play. Dowling would more appropriately be inactive for every game or be on the Practice Squad.

If you check last year's roster or any patriot roster, you will find many players who are on the team to play special teams.

What is apparently spreading to some of the fan base is that Special Teams is an afterthought and that a positional 5th corner, 4th S, 5th safety, 5th LB, or 6th LB is somehow more valuable than a top gunner. I'm sure that there are coaches that think that way. Belichick does not seem to be one of them.

I'm normally a big Reiss fan, but his overemphasis of the importance of "core ST players" is spreading to the fanbase.

Since when did playing ST well require an inability to contribute on offense or defense?

Cole got shredded in the AFCCG and the dropoff from Arrington to him was the main reason the defense lost its way in that game.

We cannot rely on Cole to play on defense in big games. The entire point of drafting a guy like Logan Ryan is that he projects as a solid CB who ALSO plays special teams. It's time our ST units be more valuable to our offensive & defensive units - and this draft, notably with Ryan & Harmon, aims to address that.

We've lost Super Bowl rings because we had STers playing starting roles in the final game of our season (Eric Alexander, Tracy White & Sterling Moore, Marquice Cole). Enough is enough.

 

[BradyManny]

Most of the fan base has understood the importance of special-teamers for decades. Whigham, Izzo, and Davis come to mind. If you would rather start Dowling on Special Teams, I can only say that this significantly decreases the strength of special teams play. Dowling would more appropriately be inactive for every game or be on the Practice Squad.

Special teamers are important, no one is denying that, but you can only carry so many guys who have no value elsewhere.

At any given time during the BB era, that might be a few guys per roster who are truly ST-specialists (excluding kicker/punter,etc.). Then, there are several other back-end players on the roster who are confused with ST specialists simply because they are put on several units. Guys like Cole, Alexander, Aiken, Moore, Brown. The team burns through these kind of players, and every year we're told by the Reiss of the world how important they are until the next year Belichick replaces them with someone else.

These guys wouldn't have been on the roster in the first place if picks like Butler, Crable, McKenzie, etc. hadn't flopped - both on ST and on defense.

What is apparently spreading to some of the fan base is that Special Teams is an afterthought and that a positional 5th corner, 4th S, 5th safety, 5th LB, or 6th LB is somehow more valuable than a top gunner. I'm sure that there are coaches that think that way. Belichick does not seem to be one of them.

I could not disagree with this more, mgteich. Things are not swinging that way at all in perception. Special teams play used to be underappreciated, and unfortunately, has now swung the other way. Special teams is not an afterthought, but I have yet to receive an explanation why it is that in order to play special teams well, it is a pre-requisite that you suck at defense or offense. It is not. The Patriots have tried drafting plenty of players who should've been good at ST and contributed on offense/defense, but they busted. As a result, we have had more ST-only guys on our team than Belichick would've drawn it up. As a result of that, fans are severely misjuding the importance of ST-only players on the roster.

In short, there is absolutely no reason why Logan Ryan cannot replace Maurqice Cole on this roster this offseason as both gunner and 5th CB. Put another way, there is absolutely no reason why our gunner and 5th CB can't be competent at both positions.

If it's a question of Cole vs. Dowling and Dowling continues to suck, then naturally, Cole will get the edge b/c of ST team play. But we now - hopefully - have an alternative in Ryan.

The viewpoint you seem to be taking, as is Mike Reiss, is somehow assuming that a player capable of providing starting caliber play for this defense is somehow incapable of providing quality special teams play. It's irrational.

 

[SONS_OF_BELICHICK]

people need to realize ...quality depth is an important part of any superbowl team. Football is a physical sport and you are going to lose players. I am hopeful we stay relatively healthy...to bring us another opportunity at another ....big trophy

 

[signbabybrady]

Bradymanny,
you point to the D and claim we lost superbowls due to STers having to play on the D. So I would point to the 96 SB where we may have lost the game due to our STs only stand out being hurt and Desmond Howard running right past the starter filling the role.

you can complain about Reiss all you want but BB has shown there is more than just 3 st only spots and accounting for it when filling out a depth chart is the right way to go.

 

[mgteich]

An there is no reason by the backup QB can't be a backup TE or something else useful. Ans surely the backup swing OT should be able to play guard. NONSENSE!

We disagree. We'll see if anyone on the final roster is there to play Special Teams. Obviously, you would immediately cut Slater (if not, why not).

The reality is that there are starting positions on Special Teams just like there are on defense and offense. To forgo on of your top gunners so that you can have a backup to the backups at corner or safety makes little sense.

Of course, it would be great if everyone played two positions. Of course, very few players are good enough on special teams that there positions skill matters little.

You can believe that Special Teams are not important enough to justify roster positions, unless they can be 3rd or 4th string at another position. I disagree. And I believe that Belichick having Slater and White on the team for years also disagrees. Guys like Koutouvides, Tarpinian, Rivera and Ebner have little chance to make the roster based in their positional skills.

And just BTW, Cole is likely one of the very best #5 corners on any NFL roster. Perhaps you prefer the street free agents that we've had to sign in the past.

Put another way, there is absolutely no reason why our gunner and 5th CB can't be competent at both positions.

If it's a question of Cole vs. Dowling and Dowling continues to suck, then naturally, Cole will get the edge b/c of ST team play. But we now - hopefully - have an alternative in Ryan.

 

[Gronkandez]

people need to realize ...quality depth is an important part of any superbowl team. Football is a physical sport and you are going to lose players. I am hopeful we stay relatively healthy...to bring us another opportunity at another ....big trophy

People do realize that depth is an important part of any superbowl team. The point is, it would be nice to draft a guy in the 3rd round with a high ceiling instead a backup slot cb or whatever Harmon is.

 

[BradyManny]

An there is no reason by the backup QB can't be a backup TE or something else useful. Ans surely the backup swing OT should be able to play guard. NONSENSE!

We disagree. We'll see if anyone on the final roster is there to play Special Teams. Obviously, you would immediately cut Slater (if not, why not).

You must realize I do not think like this, and that there is no need to resort to hyperbole. I've already conceded as a given that the team carries ST only players. Obviously, Slater has a spot on this team.

The point in question is whether CB4 should place an emphasis on ST play or CB play. Last season, our CB4 to end the season was a guy whose value is largely on ST (thanks to Dowling being a bust, again, suggesting Bill didn't intend Cole to be CB4). This ended up helping end our season. I don't want to see that happen again.

You can believe that Special Teams are not important enough to justify roster positions, unless they can be 3rd or 4th string at another position. I disagree. And I believe that Belichick having Slater and White on the team for years also disagrees. Guys like Koutouvides, Tarpinian, Rivera and Ebner have little chance to make the roster based in their positional skills.

Again, I don't argue we allocate spots to ST guys. The question is how many, and how deep to go with real positional players. Not going deep enough at LB, CB & S has deprived of us rings. That's something I don't see how you can debate with, nor is it something that I think you should accept as lightly as you are. I also think it's a leap to suggest Belichick is equally as non-plussed by losing titles over this fact as you are. He's tried to do something about it, but misfires in the draft, especially in 2009, deprived this team of players who should've been 4-down players.

He has put a re-emphasis on 4 down players in the last couple drafts, and it should negate the need to carry as many ST only players. Why would this bother you??

 

[RI Patriots fan]

If Dowling is 100% for once, there is no reason he cannot beat out Ryan. Ryan, in turn, would then make the team over Cole or Ebner. But if Dowling doesn't come out of the gate strong or gets nicked up in the preseason, I think he is done in NE.

Dowling isn't going anywhere this year.

If he plays, he costs the team $1.45M this year.

If he gets cut, he costs the team $1.53M this year plus the cost of a new player this year plus an additional $589K in dead money cost next year.

So that isn't going to happen.


http://www.overthecap.com/teamcap.php?Team=Patriots&Year=2014

 

[belichick010405]

BB likes versatility and he has said that he is focused on trimming down the fat. Do the math. Outside of Slater - "special teamers" better be able to play their natural position or they are risking their roster slot.

 

[mgteich]

I think that we arguing past each other. I suspect that there is little real disagreement.

You discuss the #4 corner position. I would be disappointed if Ryan cannot win this position.
I have Cole at one of the 2-3 ST/DB positions (usually #5 CB, #4 S and/or #5 S).

You are indeed correct that Dowling could win the #4 CB position and Ryan would make the team a developmental player and special teamer. We then would likely choose between Cole and Ebner.

You must realize I do not think like this, and that there is no need to resort to hyperbole. I've already conceded as a given that the team carries ST only players.

The point in question is whether CB4 should place an emphasis on ST play or CB play. Last season, or CB4 to end the season was a guy whose value is largely on ST (thanks to Dowling being a bust, again, suggesting Bill didn't intend Cole to be CB4). This ended up helping end our season. I don't want to see that happen again.



Again, I don't argue we allocate spots to ST guys. The question is how many, and how deep to go with real positional players. Not going deep enough at LB, CB & S has deprived of us rings. That's something I don't see how you can debate with, nor is it something that I think you should accept as lightly as you are. I also think it's a leap to suggest Belichick is equally as non-plussed by losing titles over this fact as you are. He's tried to do something about it, but misfires in the draft, especially in 2009, deprived this team of players who should've been 4-down players.

He has put a re-emphasis on 4 down players in the last couple drafts, and it should negate the need to carry as many ST only players. Why would this bother you??

 

[BradyManny]

I think that we arguing past each other. I suspect that there is little real disagreement.

You discuss the #4 corner position. I would be disappointed if Ryan cannot win this position.
I have Cole at one of the 2-3 ST/DB positions (usually #5 CB, #4 S and/or #5 S).

Well put, mgteich - I think we are mostly in agreement here. I sort of took this off on a tangent and a big picture discussion that you weren't really alluding to - my mistake for derailing things. Looking at the details, it seems we are allocating spots essentially the same.