VrabelJr's Index of Forum Cliches

[FCB02062]

"have to coach better, have to play better"

 

[ctpatsfan77]

"We need to get rid of BB and his culture of nepotism that he brought in with his sons"
We do. It is a culture that doesn't work anymore. Without a driving force, alpha dog type in the locker room pushing Bill's message it isn't landing. Shanahan, and the numerous other coaches kids in the league, almost always work under multiple head coaches in different organizations. Steve and Brian have only worked under Bill, who with all his recent faults, is still a defensive mastermind (who can still draft better on defense as well). The Belichick boys won't get any real respect until they go out on their own. Whether it is fair or not most people will attribute their "success" to their father until they're out from under his shadow.

Once again, the argument appears to be that their biggest "sin" is, in fact, simply being the sons of Bill Belichick.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

"We need a new head coach that is offensive minded, young, and innovative"

It makes sense a fanbase wants a coach who knows how to use wide receivers, and is aggressive in taking risks to score points, given the **** show that is the Patriots offense.

"We need to get rid of BB and his culture of nepotism that he brought in with his sons"

Cronyism is more the apt term. A bunch of old friends making the same mistakes, creating an echo chamber.

"The rebuild started when Brady left and BB hasn't delivered in 4 years"
Did it though?

Yes

We almost made the playoffs in 2020 and made them in 2021. If those seasons were drastically worse I'd suspect BB would have made different draft choices and FA signings. If there's any fault worth giving to BB it's that he didn't better identify the actual state of the team the past two seasons (that we know of). The drafting in 2022 does suggest he knew something, as he traded back for Cole Strange. Nobody picked between our original spot and Strange moves the needle.

Lol

"BB only drafts players that fit his mold of being smart and keeping their mouth shut. He never takes risks."
I've never heard Rob Gronkowski described that way before.

And Bill couldn’t handle him.

 

[lancerman]

The forum has become extremely repetitive on both sides of the debate. I'd like to save people risk of Reptitive Strain Injury and offer up an index of cliches with canned responses. Feel free to provide your own and I'll add them.

​

Cliches not rooted in logic or data:​

"We need a new head coach that is offensive minded, young, and innovative"
A refrain that loves to be used in any (all?) threads calling for BB's head. Users of this spew likely have Kyle Shanahan or Mike McDaniel in mind but unfortunately correlation does not equal causation. Kliff Kingsbury, Matt Nagy, Matt Rhule, Nathaniel Hackett, Adam Gase, Jay Gruden, Freddie Kitchens (45), Anthony Lynn (youngish, 48 when HC of LAC) have all been fired in recent seasons and qualify as young and innovative. If you want to remove young but keep innovative you could also include Frank Reich, who has now been fired twice in two years.

Tom Landry got too old and was fired and replaced with new blood. Don Shula aged out of the game and got bad. Andy Reid who is a good coach needed a change of scenery after he got stale in Philadelphia and it was mutually beneficial for both franchises. The idea that old coaches don't age out and have a point where their time is up isn't discounted because a bunch of young guys getting their start also don't make it their first time. How many years did Marvin Lewis get in Cincinatti before they finally realized he was a waste of time and moved on? You could go down the list.

Sean McVay won a Super Bowl but was that with the previous coach's roster? The last two seasons have been rocky.

Sean McVay won a Super Bowl in his 5th year as the Rams coach. Cooper Kupp, Rob Havenstein, and Andrew Whitworth were the only offensive players on the roster in his first year and his 5th year. Cooper Kupp was drafted in 2017 and Andrew Whitworth was brought on in free agency of that year. So only Rob Havenstein preceded McVay's tenure on the offensive side of the ball.

"We need to get rid of BB and his culture of nepotism that he brought in with his sons"
Steve and Brian currently coach the highest performing units of the team and there hasn't been any known criticism of their coaching by players. Everyone's other favorite head coach Kyle Shanahan grew up around the game of football. His first jobs were under his father's best friend Gary Kubiak andhe also spent a few seasons working with his dad Mike Shanahan. A certain other six time Super Bowl winning head coach also grew up around the game of football.

Most people don't critcize Bill for hiring his kids. They critcizie him for having a group of good ole boys that he's been recycling that have no new ideas and failed elsewhere and seem to only succeed under him when he happens to have a talented team. People are sick of retreads..

"The rebuild started when Brady left and BB hasn't delivered in 4 years"
Did it though? We almost made the playoffs in 2020 and made them in 2021. If those seasons were drastically worse I'd suspect BB would have made different draft choices and FA signings.

It should have, and the fact that it didn't is an indictment of Bill.

If there's any fault worth giving to BB it's that he didn't better identify the actual state of the team the past two seasons (that we know of). The drafting in 2022 does suggest he knew something, as he traded back for Cole Strange. Nobody picked between our original spot and Strange moves the needle.

Tyler Smith and Tyler Linderbaum have both been better offensive lineman than Cole Strange.

"BB only drafts players that fit his mold of being smart and keeping their mouth shut. He never takes risks."
I've never heard Rob Gronkowski described that way before.

Gronk is football smart. Which is what people meant by that. He understood complex routes and the Patriots system. He might have the demeanor of a meathead, but he fits what Bill looks for in players.

This cliche is too simple to be useful. BB has taken many players that didn't fit or did fit his supposed "mold" as both draftees and FAs. LeGarette Blount is another positive example. Aaron Hernandez and Dominique Easley also didn't fit the BB mold and look how those turned out.

This whole premise is a strawman. The argument is that he is willing to forego conventional metrics in talent for players who fit his scheme or the player profile he likes. It's not about taking risks. He often takes risks by going against conventional wisdom when a clearly more talented prospect could be his and he goes for something that fits his style.

Fair Criticisms:​

"BB doesn't know how to draft WRs"

He doesn't. He's drafted 21 WR's since he's been here and only Branch, Mitchell, Slater and Edelman were clear hits. And even amongst that Edelman wasn't drafted as a WR and Mitchell got injured and barely contributed. Slater functions as a gunner and would be considered a miss if you viewed him solely as a WR. So really Branch is the only WR Bill specifically drafted that actually mattered.

"BB can't win without Brady. Brady made him"
It's a natural human tendency to try and dstill complex systems into something easy to understand but these generalizations are never accurate whether it's a football team or the stock market.

Bill and Brady were both responsible for the dynasty. However, Bill has close to 200 games coached without Tom Brady as his QB and he simply is not a winning coach. In full seasons without Tom Brady he has 3 winning seasons to 8 losing ones. That's just a fact. There's plenty of coaches who didn't have the GOAT QB or even an elite QB that found ways to win consistently despite that. Since I already used him as an example earlier, Marvin Lewis never coached a QB who would be classified as much more than average. In 16 seasons as a HC, he had only 4 losing seasons. Tony Dungy only had 1 losing season out of 6 before he got Peyton Manning.

BB is just not a winning coach without Brady. And it's a substantial sample size. It's 11 seasons.

1) There's three phases to football and 53 roster spots. QB is very important but Brady didn't play defense or special teams.
2) Not just Brady left. Thuney, Cannon, Hightower, Gronk, Edelman, James White, and countless others left, retired, or regressed (McCourty, Slater)

1. Bill's inability to win without Brady does not mean Brady did everything. It means Brady provided a very high floor (or ceiling depending on how you want to look at it) and made it easier for Bill to focus on other things.

2. Gronk was gone in 2019 before Brady left. Thuney, Cannon, Edelman, White, McCourty and Slater were all on the 2020 team. Hightower opted out. They still had a losing record. Yeah over the next 4 years he lost all those guys... he's the GM, he's supposed to replace players like that in 4 years. If he drafted better he would have. I don't see how that absolves him even after you get to the point where Brady was by far the most significant subraction between the 2019 and 2020 team anyways.

 

[TB12TheGoat]

the OP reads like a IWTB defense post while trying to play the moderate card

the results speak for themselves. Bill’s head coaching career without Brady is laughable. in 11 seasons without Brady, he has finished with a .500 or better record only 3 times. this board used to **** on Jeff Fisher (maybe they still do) but look at his coaching record. he went 173-165-1. I’ll probably be told how Fisher had great, stacked rosters even though that’s not the case

 

[Clonamery]

the OP reads like a IWTB defense post while trying to play the moderate card

the results speak for themselves. Bill’s head coaching career without Brady is laughable. in 11 seasons without Brady, he has finished with a .500 or better record only 3 times. this board used to **** on Jeff Fisher (maybe they still do) but look at his coaching record. he went 173-165-1. I’ll probably be told how Fisher had great, stacked rosters even though that’s not the case
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You mad bro? This losing has broken you, we get it. I'm a Patriots fan so I'm used to hard times. You're emotional so I'll throw you a pass (I didn't say you were crying though it is implied). But your black & white world is for basement living. You don't win consistently in the NFL without good QB play whether you're Lombardi or Shula or Tomlin or Parcells or Bill Belichick. But you also don't win without someone that appreciates players who love the game no matter the score and will play with a boo-boo or two. Or understands clock management, situational play or funformentals, and a whole-****ing-lot-more. 2-15 is more than ****ty for anyone and everyone whether you're getting blown out or losing by 1 score. It is what it is, an L. I make no excuses but neither does Corey Dillon or David Andrews or Kevin Faulk or Vince Wilfork.

Anyway, I've taken too much of your time, chin up if you're here for the long run. Losing is sobering but doesn't mean you quit over a couple red-zone interceptions or several.

 

[sb1]

“Bill the GM is hurting Bill the coach”

Fact check: Mostly true.

We all know the problems BB has had in recent years adding talent to this team. Bill the coach hasn’t always helped himself either. In 21 he had a promising rookie QB who could help him silence the noise that he can’t win without Brady. So obviously the logical move was to hire his two buddies who failed as head coaches to run his offense and help his QB develop when they never had roles like that before. The outcome was predictable and now that formerly promising QB is on his way to the exit door.

 

[sb1]

“Brady went to a stacked team”

Fact check: False

The Bucs had some talent but I wouldn’t call them “stacked”… at least not until Gronk, AB and Fournette arrived…all key contributors to the SB run. None of them would have been there if Brady wasn’t. Maybe stacked compared to what we had but what team wasn’t? The Patriots didn’t have too much difficulty beating a Bucs team in the 2018 season who had Godwin, Brate, Evans and Desean Jackson on offense. They were 7-9 the season before Tom, champs after. Nuff said.

 

[BTTA]

The problem with nepotism is the message it sends when it is done. That message is this: "Yes, if success was our #1 priority, we'd open up the job search and do the very hard work of finding the best candidate for the job. But success isn't our #1 priority, it is something else, so we are going to hire family members."

Everyone in the organization gets that message loud and clear. Once the principle of favoritism is established as a legitimate decision making value, everyone wonders how it affects them. Favoritism is always corrosive.

It is also incredibly common and a part of the human experience, so we are all a bit numb to it.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

“Bill the GM is hurting Bill the coach”

Fact check: Mostly true.

We all know the problems BB has had in recent years adding talent to this team. Bill the coach hasn’t always helped himself either. In 21 he had a promising rookie QB who could help him silence the noise that he can’t win without Brady. So obviously the logical move was to hire his two buddies who failed as head coaches to run his offense and help his QB develop when they never had roles like that before. The outcome was predictable and now that formerly promising QB is on his way to the exit door.

Overlooks the fact that besides defensive schemes, Bill the coach also sucks.

 

[Ross12]

The problem with nepotism is the message it sends when it is done. That message is this: "Yes, if success was our #1 priority, we'd open up the job search and do the very hard work of finding the best candidate for the job. But success isn't our #1 priority, it is something else, so we are going to hire family members."

Everyone in the organization gets that message loud and clear. Once the principle of favoritism is established as a legitimate decision making value, everyone wonders how it affects them. Favoritism is always corrosive.

It is also incredibly common and a part of the human experience, so we are all a bit numb to it.

But Steve and Brian didn't just get their roles as-is, they started in lower ranking positions and eventually moved up into these spots as the positions were vacated. You can say they got preferential treatment to get their foot in the door, but it seems like they proved themselves after that to get where they are. Bill didn't just say "I need a linebackers coach, hmmmmmm I think my son Steve is unemployed right now, hey Steve wanna be my linebackers coach?"

By all accounts Steve and Brian are doing good work and the players speak well of them. The defense is very good. I have a hard time being upset about nepotism here.

 

[archstanton543]

But Steve and Brian didn't just get their roles as-is, they started in lower ranking positions and eventually moved up into these spots as the positions were vacated. You can say they got preferential treatment to get their foot in the door, but it seems like they proved themselves after that to get where they are. Bill didn't just say "I need a linebackers coach, hmmmmmm I think my son Steve is unemployed right now, hey Steve wanna be my linebackers coach?"

By all accounts Steve and Brian are doing good work and the players speak well of them. The defense is very good. I have a hard time being upset about nepotism here.

That doesn't matter. They're still the sons of the boss.

 

[203Pat]

Once again, the argument appears to be that their biggest "sin" is, in fact, simply being the sons of Bill Belichick.

I said it in my post, it may not be fair but it is what is. There is also something to the fact that Kraft worked hard to keep Mayo and has talked about him glowingly in the press and many think he is the coach in waiting. If it really is Steve behind the defensive success then why would Mayo be seemingly getting so much credit?

 

[sb1]

If I'm Steve I'd want to go to a new team and try to build a nice track record without my father.

 

[Ross12]

That doesn't matter. They're still the sons of the boss.

If you say so. I have a bigger problem with some of the other bizarre hirings around the league, like the Jeff Saturday interim HC job in Indianapolis, or the chatter of Greg Olsen being the Panthers' next HC. These are guys who are not part of the organization at all being given the highest ranking job because they're buddies with the owner. If Bill did that - make one of his kids his defensive coordinator off the street - I'd say that's messed up. But hiring them as coaching assistants and letting them work their way up over the span of years after they've proved it, I don't have a problem with. As other posters have said, many other successful coaches have gone through the same thing including Kyle Shanahan.

 

[SlowGettingUp]

The missing piece in this analysis is cap management. The Pats have oodles of cap room over the next few years - among the top in the whole league. Unlike the rest of the league we simply haven't used the credit card that the league provides - void years in contracts. And we have low cash outlays both last year and this year. So why Belichick went cheap on the OL and receivers is beyond me. Either Kraft felt burned by the Covid-era splurge or Bill felt we weren't really competitive this year and so wanted to save for next year. But bottom line is we went cheap this year.

Some of our struggles in the past few years is still hangover from the end of the Brady era. We gave up picks trading for players - that hurts the cap in the long term as drafted players are cheaper.

 

[203Pat]

If you say so. I have a bigger problem with some of the other bizarre hirings around the league, like the Jeff Saturday interim HC job in Indianapolis, or the chatter of Greg Olsen being the Panthers' next HC. These are guys who are not part of the organization at all being given the highest ranking job because they're buddies with the owner. If Bill did that - make one of his kids his defensive coordinator off the street - I'd say that's messed up. But hiring them as coaching assistants and letting them work their way up over the span of years after they've proved it, I don't have a problem with. As other posters have said, many other successful coaches have gone through the same thing including Kyle Shanahan.

Well Irsay is clearly not operating with a fully functional brain and the Olsen thing stemmed from an interview where someone asked him if he'd want the job and he said yes so I don’t think there is much to that from the Panthers side. Bill's kids won't get any respect until they succeed away from him.

 

[borg]

Either Kraft felt burned by the Covid-era splurge

or Bill felt we weren't really competitive this year and so wanted to save for next year.

Another possibility, Bill was unable to attract quality FAs to NE and didn't want to again overpay for Agholar/Jonnu types.
Why would any legit weapon want to trust their career with Mac Jones at the helm.
It's not as if the team's WR failure rate is a secret outside NE.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Most people don't critcize Bill for hiring his kids. They critcizie him for having a group of good ole boys that he's been recycling that have no new ideas and failed elsewhere and seem to only succeed under him when he happens to have a talented team. People are sick of retreads..

And yet the nepotism seems to come up more. . . .

 

[Clonamery]

Well Irsay is clearly not operating with a fully functional brain and the Olsen thing stemmed from an interview where someone asked him if he'd want the job and he said yes so I don’t think there is much to that from the Panthers side. Bill's kids won't get any respect until they succeed away from him.

Any?