Are We Improved As Of Now? SAT NIGHT

[Patsfanin Philly]

If I read this correctly, the Pats ave 8 UDFAs from class of 2013, Allen, Kline, Sudfeld, Cave, Barker, Francis, Thompkins and Vellano. That has the be most of the BB era and crazy for a playoff team.....

 

[50-yard-line]

No one said anything about young guys getting worse, nor can you guarantee significant improvement - there are too many recent examples of that not being the case. Futhermare, if you don't see the mess that is the safety position (outside of McCourty) then I would suggest it's your optics that need to be re-evaluated. Re-read my post, nothing I wrote is really controversial, other than I didn't stress that if the worlds align just perfectly (i.e. no injuries, rookies and UDFAs work out, 2nd year players improve significantly...) we will be a top 5-10 defense.

The question ASKED in the thread isn't whether this is the greatest team in the history of the universe, it's whether this team is better than last year's team at this time.

The "mess" that is the safety position is less this year than at this time last year, because McCourty is there and the 2 and 3 have a year in the system - they won't be worse. The only logical way you could argue that we're not better here would be claiming Chung is better than Harmon by a wide margin (and better than Gregory and T. Wilson).

The corners are clearly better - who were our 1, 2, 3 corners to start last year? Better than Talib, Dennard and Arrington?

The only change in the linebacking corps is that hightower, Mayo and Spikes hav ea year together under their belts, Fletcher is healthy and with Jamie Collins and Steve Beauharnis replace Tarpinian, Rivera and Kout - if BB though any of the latter were better that the three he kept, he probably would have kept them.

DL certainly isn't worse - in fact, it didn't take many snaps to show that Tommy Kelly is an enormous upgrade. Add in that Jones has a year and 15 pounds of muscle under his belt.

So sticking with the defense, if you're arguing that THIS defense is worse that last year's Patriot defense at this time, please explain.

 

[mb6592]

The only logical way you could argue that we're not better here would be claiming Chung is better than Harmon by a wide margin (and better than Gregory and T. Wilson).

No, I wouldn't have to claim that Chung is better than Harmon by a wide margin, I'd only have to claim that Harmon has yet to prove that he's a NFL caliber safety (and that I don't expect huge improvements from Gregory and T. Wilson). Again, the problems with this position alone (outside of McCourty) could spell huge problems for this defense.

The corners are clearly better - who were our 1, 2, 3 corners to start last year? Better than Talib, Dennard and Arrington?

How are they better? This is a push as these are the same corners we ended the season with.

The only change in the linebacking corps is that hightower, Mayo and Spikes hav ea year together under their belts, Fletcher is healthy and with Jamie Collins and Steve Beauharnis replace Tarpinian, Rivera and Kout - if BB though any of the latter were better that the three he kept, he probably would have kept them).

This again pushes the notion that our same guys will be significantly better this year. I sure hope so. Also, until Hightower delivers on his "potential" (a familiar refrain) this is far from an imposing linebacking corp.

DL certainly isn't worse - in fact, it didn't take many snaps to show that Tommy Kelly is an enormous upgrade. Add in that Jones has a year and 15 pounds of muscle under his belt).

Tommy Kelly is a significant upgrade; however, the notion that we signed some stud may be a bit of a reach. Also, this group is one injury away from being a big problem.

So sticking with the defense, if you're arguing that THIS defense is worse that last year's Patriot defense at this time, please explain.

Actually, I never said this defense was worse . I said, "Just the safeties alone problem promisies a long and frustrating repeat of our recent defenses woes. God forbid Talib or Dennard goes down for any length of time. This defense will, once again, cause many and varied products to be consumed.

I'm one of those loser fans that has never bought into the Pats being a top 10 defense recently (stats be damned), and can not remember the last time the Pats have fielded an above average defense.

I, once again (and for the past what seems like 50 years now), expect to agonize over this defense, but the real reason I think we are not improved is due to the numerous question marks on offense.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

No, I wouldn't have to claim that Chung is better than Harmon by a wide margin, I'd only have to claim that Harmon has yet to prove that he's a NFL caliber safety (and that I don't expect huge improvements from Gregory and T. Wilson). Again, the problems with this position alone (outside of McCourty) could spell huge problems for this defense.



How are they better? This is a push as these are the same corners we ended the season with.



This again pushes the notion that our same guys will be significantly better this year. I sure hope so. Also, until Hightower delivers on his "potential" (a familiar refrain) this is far from an imposing linebacking corp.



Tommy Kelly is a significant upgrade; however, the notion that we signed some stud may be a bit of a reach. Also, this group is one injury away from being a big problem.



Actually, I never said this defense was worse . I said, "Just the safeties alone problem promisies a long and frustrating repeat of our recent defenses woes. God forbid Talib or Dennard goes down for any length of time. This defense will, once again, cause many and varied products to be consumed.

I'm one of those loser fans that has never bought into the Pats being a top 10 defense recently (stats be damned), and can not remember the last time the Pats have fielded an above average defense.

I, once again (and for the past what seems like 50 years now), expect to agonize over this defense, but the real reason I think we are not improved is due to the numerous question marks on offense.

That's a pretty unfortunate and bleak outlook to take when the first game of the season hasn't started. The season is new, it's a good thing to be optimistic even if it is unlikely. There will be plenty of time for bleak unhappy pessimism down the road.
But on paper, here is the dry comparison from 2012 to 2013 season openeing lineups (obviously the real comparison will be done at the end of the season -- when that comes):
2012
Ninko, Vince, Love, Jones(rookie)
Hightower(rookie), Mayo, Spikes
McCourty, Arrington, Cheung, Gregory

2013
Ninko, Vince, Kelly, Jones(no longer a rookie)
Hightower(no longer a rookie), Mayo, Spikes
Talib, Dennard, McCourty, Gregory

Hey you could end up being right and this unit is yet another struggle for effectiveness just like last year. But on paper this is an improved defense. There really isn't an argument to the contrary as the front 7 are the same with 2 no longer being rookies (likely a good thing) and what appears to be some level of upgrade at DT. Further, the secondary clearly is better on paper (and this was one of the clear weak spots of last year).

 

[ATippett56]

OFFENSE - BACKUPS
We've added Blount, Develin and Svitek. We've lost Woodhead and Thomas. This is a net negative.

1) Cannon and Svitek are starting quality backups. Belichick is currently trying out the backup to the backup at C.
2) Blount replaced Woodhead. That must be a negative.
3) We've added a dedicated H-back/FB. That's a plus.
4) Belichick chose Hooman over Fells, no biggie.

Offensive Backup Additions:

Blount, LeGarrette
Develin, James
Svitek, Will

Offensive Backup Subtractions:

Woodhead, Danny
Fells, Daniel
McDonald, Nick
Thomas, Donald

 

[Ive_Killed_People]

I fear you are making the error of comparing whole-season health last year to starting health this year.

QB -- pretty much the same as last year.
RB -- Woodhead is better than the new guys. Ridley and Vereen have, however, had another year to develop.
TE -- Big decline. Who knows whether Sudfeld, an under-muscled rookie, will be more durable than Hernandez.
WR -- I'll just duck that discussion.

You are misrepresenting our RB situation. Vereen is stepping into Woodheads role I see that as an upgrade especially in the down the field passing game.

You are way off as well about our TEs. I see a potential upgrade. Suds McKenzie is a better blocker than AHom and has a bigger catch radius. Hasn't murderlized anybody as far as I know.He may be under-muscled but has AHom been durable anyways? Suds got better hands than AHom by far. And there is a real chance we could have Gronk for more games this year than last.

Our WRs which you refused to judge are potentially a HUGE upgrade. They got youth talent speed and size over our last core and seem remarkably polished.

Now admittedly everything I've said is contingent on the will of God and the creeks not rising but is not everything? It's all potential energy till the ball is kicked off.

 

[mb6592]

That's a pretty unfortunate and bleak outlook to take when the first game of the season hasn't started. The season is new, it's a good thing to be optimistic even if it is unlikely. There will be plenty of time for bleak unhappy pessimism down the road.
But on paper, here is the dry comparison from 2012 to 2013 season openeing lineups (obviously the real comparison will be done at the end of the season -- when that comes):
2012
Ninko, Vince, Love, Jones(rookie)
Hightower(rookie), Mayo, Spikes
McCourty, Arrington, Cheung, Gregory

2013
Ninko, Vince, Kelly, Jones(no longer a rookie)
Hightower(no longer a rookie), Mayo, Spikes
Talib, Dennard, McCourty, Gregory

Hey you could end up being right and this unit is yet another struggle for effectiveness just like last year. But on paper this is an improved defense. There really isn't an argument to the contrary as the front 7 are the same with 2 no longer being rookies (likely a good thing) and what appears to be some level of upgrade at DT. Further, the secondary clearly is better on paper (and this was one of the clear weak spots of last year).

It's, obviously, all relative (to those Super Bowl years defenses). But, hey, we still have Brady & Belichick - it's all good....

 

[ATippett56]

Another approach on the defense

DEFENSIVE BACKUPS - about the same, perhaps a tad worse until we add the JAGs.
1) We've lost Cunningham who most wanted to cut anyway,
2) We've lost useless Scott, Deaderick, Moore and Chung.
3) We've added Collins, Buchanan, Ryan, Vellano, Harmon and Beauharnais.
4) Fletcher is back.
5) We'll add a JAG DL or two in the next couple of weeks.
6) Bequette and T Wilson have had a year of experience.

Defensive Backup Additions:

Buchanan, Michael
Francis, AJ
Vellano, Joe
Beauharnais, Steve
Collins, Jamie
White, Chris
Harmon, Duron
Ryan, Logan

Defensive Backup Subtractions:

Cunningham, Jermaine
Francis, Justin
Scott, Trevor
Brace, Ron
Deaderick, Brandon
Koutouvides, Niko
Rivera, Mike
White, Tracy
Cole, Marquice
Martin, Derrick
Moore, Sterling
Williams, Malcolm

 

[DarrylS]

To say we are improved or have regressed is a tad premature, as most of what we are assessing is "on paper"... this team has gotten rid of some negative influence and added a lot of youth.

IMO ask this question about game 4, until them I expect some hiccups as what we saw in practice and preseason will be much different than what we see in the regular season...

IMO the defense, on paper, seems much better...

The offense seems different, not sure if it is better or worse... once again, it will take time to tune it so they are all doing what they are supposed to be doing..

 

[ATippett56]

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