Belichick ("not a tremendous downside"), Ebner on failed onsides kick

[Bartmac36]

Two things:

1. We were a much healthier team and much deadlier offense when we played the Skins, so the two early onside kicks aren't necessarily the same thing. We couldnt afford to give away field position or momentum vs. philly yesterday. And i don't recall anyone being okay with the Skins call so much as happy that it worked out (because it nearly didn't).

2. The problem with the call isn't field position given up, the problem is it gave the Eagles life. The extra 21 yards dont matter if they are emotionally checked out, but when you give them a break and a reason to have faith it changes EVERYTHING. It threw everything out of sync, and the likely doesn't happen if you do a traditional damn kickoff and continue to dominate.

Dumbest play call of the year by Bellichick, especially given the current state of the team.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

Two things:

1. We were a much healthier team and much deadlier offense when we played the Skins, so the two early onside kicks aren't necessarily the same thing. We couldnt afford to give away field position or momentum vs. philly yesterday. And i don't recall anyone being okay with the Skins call so much as happy that it worked out (because it nearly didn't)

Yesterday was not an onsides kick. It was a modified pooch/squib kick. Further, Ebner wanted to kick it further than he actually did. If it were an onsides kick PHI would have had the ball at the NE 40-45. They got it at their own 41.

And the fact that the NE offense is much less healthy and much less deadly than when NE played WAS is precisely why this made more sense to try than an actual onsides kick against WAS did.

 

[Biffins]

This thread is a whole lot of nothing.

I have never heard anyone complain that a game was lost because the opposing team returned one kickoff return to the 35-40 yard line. And yet apparently we lost this game after the Eagles managed to start at the 40 yd line..............

 

[Galeb]

Think of it this way. You're teaching your kid to parallel park the car and after listening to your instructions drives really fast, pulls the e-brake and slides perfectly into the spot. By your logic, you shouldn't complain because he parked the car in the designated spot.

That's a really bad analogy. No one was teaching BB anything, and learning to drive is not a team competition. Competition entails making lots risk/reward decisions. Driving is the most dangerous thing most of us do, and every driving decision we make must have safety as the number one priority.

If you're going to use analogies to explain something, at least use ones where the circumstances, intent and outcome of the actions are at least similar. Such a fundamentally flawed analogy is usually the result of either deceit or an inaccurate understanding of the topic at hand. May I have my dislike now?

 

[Deus Irae]

I disagree with the play but in general it is of little importance.

Let's not get this stuff twisted. It was hugely important. It gave the Eagles emotion after they'd been getting squashed. What it did to the specifics on the field wasn't much. What it did for the Eagle's psyche was, obviously, game changing.

 

[PatsDeb]

Apparently they weren't after it either, given that they threw a dink pass for 6 yards and then got stuffed for a 6 yard loss on a run, bringing up 3rd-and-10. Which NE promptly choked and gave up 20 yards on. If anything got them "fired up" it was that.

Look, you don't have to agree with me, but the air changed in the stadium on that play. It was stupid to call it and started the landslide.

 

[Kontradiction]

Look, you don't have to agree with me, but the air changed in the stadium on that play. It was stupid to call it and started the landslide.

Mo... men... tum. The Eagles had zero of it before that play. They had a lot of it after that play. The call was ******ed and Belichick should be kicking himself by calling that in that spot. Worst coached game since Cleveland, 2010.

 

[Galeb]

Look, you don't have to agree with me, but the air changed in the stadium on that play. It was stupid to call it and started the landslide.

The Eagles didn't come back and kill the Pats with excellent execution. The biggest factor in the "momentum swing" was the Patriots themselves making stupid plays at critical times. 21 of the Eagle's 35 points were not scored by great plays by the eagles, they were a direct result of meltdowns by the Pats. That doesn't even include the pick in the end-zone that wasn't a pick six. How many drops did Pats receivers have? It wasn't a momentum shift that beat the Patriots, it was poor execution and bad situational football that did.

 

[PatsDeb]

The Eagles didn't come back and kill the Pats with excellent execution. The biggest factor in the "momentum swing" was the Patriots themselves making stupid plays at critical times. 21 of the Eagle's 35 points were not scored by great plays by the eagles, they were a direct result of meltdowns by the Pats. That doesn't even include the pick in the end-zone that wasn't a pick six. How many drops did Pats receivers have? It wasn't a momentum shift that beat the Patriots, it was poor execution and bad situational football that did.

I didn't say the air changed only for the Eagles.

 

[Galeb]

I didn't say the air changed only for the Eagles.

If a team is not mentally tough enough to deal with one bad special teams play, they don't deserve to win the game in the first place. I'm not saying BB was right, nor am I saying that there is no such thing as momentum. My point is that the Pat's poor situational football was the root cause of the loss, not something the Pats, who usually adjust well to huge momentum shifts, typically don't do. Let's hope this is an anomaly and not the beginning of a new norm.

 

[PatsDeb]

If a team is not mentally tough enough to deal with one bad special teams play, they don't deserve to win the game in the first place. I'm not saying BB was right, nor am I saying that there is no such thing as momentum. My point is that the Pat's poor situational football was the root cause of the loss, not something the Pats, who have who usually adjust well to huge momentum shifts, typically do. Let's hope this is an anomaly and not the beginning of a new norm.

Agreed. But, it was a huge surprise that they made this unnecessary call, and then, as you put it, were not tough enough to deal with the outcome and the game going forward from there. It just spiraled out of control.

 

[Galeb]

Agreed. But, it was a huge surprise that they made this unnecessary call, and then, as you put it, were not tough enough to deal with the outcome and the game going forward from there. It just spiraled out of control.

Common ground

 

[gruffypatsfan]

It's amazing how many critical decisions BB usually gets right during a game/season and I think we take it for granted sometimes (the Pats team in general for that matter). However for me there was much more downside than upside going for it. This is an Eagles team that had lost 3 in a row, the offense had not looked good in those games and nor in this game up to that point and they were now down 14-0 at Gillette stadium. The momentum was completely on the Pats side, obviously it wasn't the sole reason they lost but I feel it was completely unnecessary given the circumstance and the team they were playing.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

Let's not get this stuff twisted. It was hugely important. It gave the Eagles emotion after they'd been getting squashed. What it did to the specifics on the field wasn't much. What it did for the Eagle's psyche was, obviously, game changing.

Did it not matter at all? No. It definitely altered the current trajectory of the game. However, it was little more than a good kick return in terms of its field position change.
An Int for a TD, a blocked FG for a TD, a PR for a TD (and dropped passes among others) amplified the effect of what was otherwise a non standard play that BB sometimes likes to throw into the mix (one I did not agree with). Remove 1 maybe 2 of these big plays I just mentioned and this 'non standard' play is just a footnote, a once in a blue moon BB wacky play, in another Patriot victory.

I just don't see the argument that this one play stacks up against the big ticket items the Patriots fell down on and resulted in a loss.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

Mo... men... tum. The Eagles had zero of it before that play. They had a lot of it after that play. The call was ******ed and Belichick should be kicking himself by calling that in that spot. Worst coached game since Cleveland, 2010.

Kontra, I see your argument but I just don't see it as an end result. The Patriots F'd up on STs and Brady and/or the receiver F'd up. Whether you try an ill-advised squib kick, statue of liberty, triple reverse option whatever, a team that spots another team 21 non offense points is in deep shyte.

The Eagles momentum was largely.. .. .. .. ..a minimum 10 point swing Int for a TD and Patriots playing horrid STs allowing 2 TDs? That is some serious Eagle juju to will those critical non offense game changing plays based on momentum.

 

[PP2]

Kontra, I see your argument but I just don't see it as an end result. The Patriots F'd up on STs and Brady and/or the receiver F'd up. Whether you try an ill-advised squib kick, statue of liberty, triple reverse option whatever, a team that spots another team 21 non offense points is in deep shyte.

The Eagles momentum was largely.. .. .. .. ..a minimum 10 point swing Int for a TD and Patriots playing horrid STs allowing 2 TDs? That is some serious Eagle juju to will those critical non offense game changing plays based on momentum.

Think about how the Eagles looked at it, or imagine yourself a Eagles fan: a 10-1 team goes up on you 14-0 and gets cute with a bizarre drop-kick, effectively sending the message that they think the game is secured enough for them to start fooling around. You'd take offense, wouldn't you? The Eagles definitely took real offense at it and played with a huge chip on their shoulders the rest of the game.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

Think about how the Eagles looked at it, or imagine yourself a Eagles fan: a 10-1 team goes up on you 14-0 and gets cute with a bizarre drop-kick, effectively sending the message that they think the game is secured enough for them to start fooling around. You'd take offense, wouldn't you? The Eagles definitely took real offense at it and played with a huge chip on their shoulders the rest of the game.

Let me ask you this, as the Patriots have piled onto these pathetic palookas (all teams) many games over the past X amount of years, why isn't every team finding this hidden high turbo gear when playing the Patriots? Haven't the Patriots slapped every team with the proverbial white glove enough through huge scoring (much more so than a squib kick)?
Again how does this hidden high turbo gear that when hit releases the monsters of the gridiron account for a poor throw returned for an Int and absurdly bad blocking for a FG and P? Are you saying these STs plays can happen because they were insulted and willed it so??

 

[QuantumMechanic]

So this incredible, horrible affront to the Eagles happened with 7:47 left in the second quarter.

And somehow half a quarter from then, the "fired up" Eagles used... telepathy? to cause the NE punt team to to misread a routine stunt and double-team someone leaving a big hole for the rusher?

And then 15 minutes of game clock time plus halftime after that (so close to an hour of wall-clock time, I'd imagine), those fired up Eagles hatched their momentum-building nefarious plan of letting Brady and NE drive all the way down to the Eagles 1 yard line because they were setting Brady up to throw a 99yd pick-six?

 

[QuantumMechanic]

Let me ask you this, as the Patriots have piled onto these pathetic palookas (all teams) many games over the past X amount of years, why isn't every team finding this hidden high turbo gear when playing the Patriots?

Being blown out 45-17...not enough for turbo mode.
Being blown out 45-14. On national TV. By the Lions....not enough for turbo mode.
Losing 14-0...not enough for turbo mode.
But my god -- a trick kickoff. NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANY MORE RAAAAHR!

 

[alvinnf]

Oh how I miss the chef from the muppets.....