How Good Does Mac Have To Be To Get His Option Picked Up?

[Tunescribe]

Mac Jones: I'm going to do everything I can to earn respect inside the Patriots' building

Patriots quarterback Mac Jones knows he took a step backward in his second season, and he says he's committed to righting the ship.

profootballtalk.nbcsports.com

I honestly don't understand why you were not banned from this site long ago. You contribute nothing remotely worthwhile.

 

[Wozzy]

So now you just want to lie? Brees has 5 4th quarter comebacks in the 3 years you referenced. And 27 not comebacks. He was not “tops”

Do you really think that winning fewer games but having some of them be comebacks is a great thing? Again, you should why people who rely on statistics say dumb things. Cumulative statistics because you played 20 years are even dumber.

Again you want to absolve the QB from any impact on winning when he has the largest impact.

Drew Brees is third all-time in NFL game winning drives behind only Brady and Peyton. He rarely choked. He was ultra clutch.

NFL Game-Winning Drives Career Leaders (since 1950) | Pro-Football-Reference.com

1. Tom Brady (58), 2. Peyton Manning (54), 3. Drew Brees (53), 3. Ben Roethlisberger (53), 5. Dan Marino (47),

www.pro-football-reference.com

That’s not a “lie,” that’s a fact and here ^ is the list of all-time game winning drives.

Matt Stafford is 8th on that list just above John Elway, he played for 12 seasons in Detroit without winning a single playoff game… he went to the Rams and in one season won 4 playoff games and a Super Bowl. That elite QB needed a team a lot more than they needed him.

Defense matters, special teams matter, coaching matters… wins are a team stat.

It’s a team game.

 

[Ring 6]

Drew Brees is third all-time in NFL game winning drives behind only Brady and Peyton. He rarely choked. He was ultra clutch.

NFL Game-Winning Drives Career Leaders (since 1950) | Pro-Football-Reference.com

1. Tom Brady (58), 2. Peyton Manning (54), 3. Drew Brees (53), 3. Ben Roethlisberger (53), 5. Dan Marino (47),

www.pro-football-reference.com

That’s not a “lie,” that’s a fact and here ^ is the list of all-time game winning drives.

Matt Stafford is 8th on that list just above John Elway, he played for 12 seasons in Detroit without winning a single playoff game… he went to the Rams and in one season won 4 playoff games and a Super Bowl. That elite QB needed a team a lot more than they needed him.

Defense matters, special teams matter, coaching matters… wins are a team stat.

It’s a team game.

You said he was “the top” during the 3 years in question, that was a lie.
It’s a team game with the purpose of winning but building stats.

Nowhere in any of this discussion have I ever said defense, special teams or coaching doesn’t matter. Not once.
What I have said, over and over is that players determine whether you win and the QB is the most important part.

Wind are a stat for every player, because they all affect winning or losing to different degrees, the qb having the most impact. Impact in winning is not measured in cumulative stats, it is measured by how, when, and under what circumstances those stats are accumulated. Saying that the value of a QB is what he contributes to winning not what he puts on a stat sheet, and those 2 things are very different, does not evoke a counter argument of DeeFenzzz mAtTeRzzzzz

 

[crawhammer]

Drew Brees is third all-time in NFL game winning drives behind only Brady and Peyton. He rarely choked. He was ultra clutch.

You must be joking?! I bring up Brady's clutchness all the time as a main component that separates him from ALL other quarterbacks in the entire history of the league and you accuse me of believing in a magical unicorn quarterback. But now, to suit your argument, you're hyping up Brees' clutchness lol.

I assume you're arguing something along the lines of Brees won less Super Bowls than Brady because he played on worse teams. Just looking at the rankings, the Saints defenses on the whole were worse than the Patriots defenses, but they had a top 5 defense three times (2010, 2013 & 2020) and in none of those seasons did they get past the divisional round. Their 2020 defense was excellent but Brees was running on fumes by the postseason and he completely fell apart in the divisional round loss to the Bucs.

Sean Payton is a brilliant-minded offensive coach and he consistently maximized the talents of his offensive personnel. Brees always had a very strong supporting cast and his numbers benefitted greatly from Payton's aggressive style and while playing in a dome for more than half his career starts (his career dome passer rating is 12 points higher than his outdoors passer rating).

The Saints had some Super Bowl caliber teams with Brees and only won once. The Colts and Broncos definitely had Super Bowl caliber teams with Manning and he only won once in both places. Marino was the greatest regular season quarterback of his generation and he never won a Super Bowl. Brady generally had weaker supporting casts (on offense) than Manning, Brees, and Marino (for certain than Manning). Statistically Brady had the overall better defenses (however the Colts defenses were generally better than most remember because they were overshadowed by Manning winning MVPs every other season).

BUT here's the real difference between Brady and Brees, Manning & Marino... postseason clutchness.

Regular Season Game-Winning Drives All Time

1. Tom Brady 58 (17% of total starts)
2. Peyton Manning 54 (20% of total starts)
3. Drew Brees (t-Roethlisberger) 53 (19% of total starts)
5. Dan Marino 47 (20% of total starts)

Postseason Game-Winning Drives All Time

1. Tom Brady 14 (29% of total starts)
.
.
5. Dan Marino 4 (22% of total starts)
.
.
10. Drew Brees 3 (17% of total starts)
.
.
16. Peyton Manning 2 (7% of total starts)

Brady had 8 more postseason GWDs than the next quarterback (Elway with 6). Brady had 5 more postseason GWDs than the threesome of Brees, Manning & Marino. So yeah, Brady was truly "ultra clutch" in the postseason and in particular in the Super Bowl. Brees, Manning & Marino appeared in a combined 6 Super Bowls with 3 wins, 3 losses, and 1 GWD (for Brees in a game that was really decided by a Manning pick six late in the 4th quarter). Brady appeared in 10 Super Bowls with 7 wins, 3 losses, and 6 GWDs (and in all 3 of the losses he had his team ahead in the 4th quarter).

 

[Wozzy]

Drew Brees led the entire NFL in passing yards in 2016, he was 3rd in TD's. The Saint's offense was ranked #2 in the entire NFL in scoring. Brees ranked 5th among all QB's in the NFL in game winning drives with four... he was one of the most "clutch" QB's in football.

@Ring 6

I posted this in response to you back on page ten, you chose to ignore everything and write a bunch of gibberish instead.

It wasn't a lie, it was a stat, just like Brees being ranked third on the all-time career list in game winning drives... again... sucks for you.

 

[Wozzy]

You must be joking?! I bring up Brady's clutchness all the time as a main component that separates him from ALL other quarterbacks in the entire history of the league and you accuse me of believing in a magical unicorn quarterback. But now, to suit your argument, you're hyping up Brees' clutchness lol.

You're a bigger delusional nutter than the guy I'm arguing with... but he's a lot like you apparently where he believes magical unicorn QB's can drag a 32nd ranked defense to the promised land.

Even though Tom Brady never played on a team outside the high teens in points allowed and that only happened twice in a 23 year career.

He said Brees wasn't clutch and that's why he didn't win more rings... laughable.

He's as big a QB fanboy ballwasher as you are.

 

[StrawHatPatriot]

Okay here's what I hate about this drew Brees defense detour... @Wozzy you just blew up the thread by making a strawman argument:

The original post was basically someone saying Mac needs to play better whem the game is on the line, to get an extension:

If he is healthy and his production this year matches jones last year he will be gone. 3200 yards and 15 TDs us more likely to get a qb benched than paid.
Stats are a bad way to judge a QB. Many QBs who will never win anything can put up good numbers on mediocre teams. Accumulating stats has more to do with the style the team plays than causation of winning.
The difference making at QB is what you do when the game is on the line. That’s true whether you are in an offense that throws it 25 times or 50.
It’s very simply to me, what jones needs to do is win.

Before he was saying that being a Daniel Jones level QB won't help him get an extension as Daniel wasn't that good.


But then you do the whole "winning is a team stat" argument and try to imply that we're pinning everything on Mac, when people didn't do that.

And then you intentionally bring up an extreme scenario (32nd ranked defense, terrible special teams) that has ZERO relevance here. The whole point is that the Patriots roster is decent enough that Mac shouldn't have a bad season. No one is saying he needs to win MVP to get extended. But of course you intentionally exagerrate and contort our points to act like we are saying Mac needs to do it by himself. And start bringing up how defense and special teams matter even though no one said it didnt beforehand. It's lame way to argue.

Winning is a team stat.

A QB can be one of the best in the league, but if his defense is ranked 32nd in points allowed, no amount of “clutch” is going to win him games.

It’s not coincidence the teams you find in the playoffs by season’s end are overwhelmingly the best at point differential. Points scored/points allowed.

A great QB can’t make a terrible defense good, can’t fix bad special teams or carry idiot coaches to championships. That’s a myth.

No one is saying Mac has to carry the team by himself. But now everyone took the bait and @Ring 6 started arguing about Brees needing to win with bad defenses, which isn't even necessary. I don't expect Brees to win rings with bad defenses. And to be fair most don't. The only thing Brees could have done was throw less picks - he was top 5 in picks some of those years he missed the playoffs, so maybe he was playing too aggressively to make up for the defense.

But again, bringing up a QB with terrible defense is such a large distraction given that we are talking about Mac Jones who has a good defense.

 

[RDS11]

You must be joking?! I bring up Brady's clutchness all the time as a main component that separates him from ALL other quarterbacks in the entire history of the league and you accuse me of believing in a magical unicorn quarterback. But now, to suit your argument, you're hyping up Brees' clutchness lol.

The idea that Brees was super clutch is not even correct to begin with. He's using the number of comebacks in his career, which is another volume stat that is padded by playing 20 years. In terms of percentage (wins / attempts), among contemporaries (i.e. since 1994) Brees has a similar record as legends Andy Dalton and Matt Ryan.

QB 4th quarter comeback percentage

 

[crawhammer]

He's as big a QB fanboy ballwasher as you are.

You won't actually do it, but if you ranked the top 20 NFL players of the last 30 years then which position do you think would have the highest representation? How many long snappers and ST gunners make your list? Interior OL or DL? Safeties? Fullbacks? Even RBs? It's a team after all, so you'll have equal representation across all position groups, right?... WRONG!

 

[crawhammer]

The idea that Brees was super clutch is not even correct to begin with. He's using the number of comebacks in his career, which is another volume stat that is padded by playing 20 years. In terms of percentage (wins / attempts), among contemporaries (i.e. since 1994) Brees has a similar record as legends Andy Dalton and Matt Ryan.

QB 4th quarter comeback percentage

That's an A+ contribution.

Of course Brady at 51% is #1 (oddly same PatsFans will roll their eyes at that).

A few other notables...

Drew Bledsoe is only at 28.2% which should shed a bit more light on why Mo Lewis belongs in the Patriots HOF.
Aaron Rodgers, for all his MVPs, decidedly is NOT a clutch player (29.7%).
His predecessor Favre was the anti-clutch (I'd like to see his choke percentage).
Funny how the "including playoffs" bit doesn't help Peyton Manning at all. I'm not sure who shriveled up more in the postseason... Favre or Peyton?

 

[Wozzy]

Okay here's what I hate about this drew Brees defense detour... @Wozzy you just blew up the thread by making a strawman argument:

Oh baloney... total horssht.

You are so smitten by the term "strawman" that you think it's some cheat code to help you refute every opinion you disagree with... hell you incorporated it into your user name. I wonder if you actually understand the term at all.

The original post was basically someone saying Mac needs to play better whem the game is on the line, to get an extension:

Before he was saying that being a Daniel Jones level QB won't help him get an extension as Daniel wasn't that good.

But then you do the whole "winning is a team stat" argument and try to imply that we're pinning everything on Mac, when people didn't do that.

And then you intentionally bring up an extreme scenario (32nd ranked defense, terrible special teams) that has ZERO relevance here. The whole point is that the Patriots roster is decent enough that Mac shouldn't have a bad season. No one is saying he needs to win MVP to get extended. But of course you intentionally exagerrate and contort our points to act like we are saying Mac needs to do it by himself. And start bringing up how defense and special teams matter even though no one said it didnt beforehand. It's lame way to argue.

No one is saying Mac has to carry the team by himself. But now everyone took the bait and @Ring 6 started arguing about Brees needing to win with bad defenses, which isn't even necessary. I don't expect Brees to win rings with bad defenses. And to be fair most don't. The only thing Brees could have done was throw less picks - he was top 5 in picks some of those years he missed the playoffs, so maybe he was playing too aggressively to make up for the defense.

But again, bringing up a QB with terrible defense is such a large distraction given that we are talking about Mac Jones who has a good defense.

Ring 6 started arguing with me on page 9 that "winning" was all that matters, that player stats were completely irrelevant and so was defense. All that mattered was winning and that it predominately fell on the QB... which is a total load of garbage. We have far too many examples of QB's like Brees leading the 2nd best offense in the entire league and ranking near the top in game winning drives (2016) yet only winning 7 games because his defense was ranked dead last. A great QB can't turn a 32nd ranked defense into a playoff defense... can't... has never happened... ever.

This notion that QB's are some cure-all and can overcome a dead last defense to win games in spite of them is garbage... there's no historical precedent that proves that... yet there's an endless supply of examples proving the opposite to be true. And passing production does matter, player stats do matter... I could point to one stat and say if Mac Jones improved at limiting "interceptions" alone he would be a solid NFL QB.

If Mac Jones leads a top five offense in scoring in 2023, is top five in passing yards, TD's, QB Rating and the Patriots offense is top three... but for some reason the defense completely falls apart and is ranked 32nd in points allowed and forced turnovers, the Patriots will win somewhere in that 7-9 game vicinity... and it will have nothing at all to do with Mac Jones.

In this ^ situation the team will pick up his final year option or better yet sign him to a decent extension long before it comes to that... because they're not idiots who believe that a QB can drag a dead last defense to playoff glory using magic powers that are seemingly unquantifiable or not visible in stats... the very notion of which is dumb... idiotic.

There's nothing "strawman" about that, there was no strawman involved at all... anyone can go back to page 9 and read the running conversation.

 

[Wozzy]

You won't actually do it, but if you ranked the top 20 NFL players of the last 30 years then which position do you think would have the highest representation? How many long snappers and ST gunners make your list? Interior OL or DL? Safeties? Fullbacks? Even RBs? It's a team after all, so you'll have equal representation across all position groups, right?... WRONG!

Lists are for small minds... you love lists.

Rank the top 20 players... based on what... Crawdaddy's opinion?

You think QB's are all that matters, it's a child-like interpretation of football. I can't rationally discuss football with you because you don't have a rational bone in your body... you believe in superheroes.

 

[Ring 6]

Oh baloney... total horssht.

You are so smitten by the term "strawman" that you think it's some cheat code to help you refute every opinion you disagree with... hell you incorporated it into your user name. I wonder if you actually understand the term at all.

Ring 6 started arguing with me on page 9 that "winning" was all that matters, that player stats were completely irrelevant and so was defense. All that mattered was winning and that it predominately fell on the QB... which is a total load of garbage. We have far too many examples of QB's like Brees leading the 2nd best offense in the entire league and ranking near the top in game winning drives (2016) yet only winning 7 games because his defense was ranked dead last. A great QB can't turn a 32nd ranked defense into a playoff defense... can't... has never happened... ever.

This notion that QB's are some cure-all and can overcome a dead last defense to win games in spite of them is garbage... there's no historical precedent that proves that... yet there's an endless supply of examples proving the opposite to be true. And passing production does matter, player stats do matter... I could point to one stat and say if Mac Jones improved at limiting "interceptions" alone he would be a solid NFL QB.

If Mac Jones leads a top five offense in scoring in 2023, is top five in passing yards, TD's, QB Rating and the Patriots offense is top three... but for some reason the defense completely falls apart and is ranked 32nd in points allowed and forced turnovers, the Patriots will win somewhere in that 7-9 game vicinity... and it will have nothing at all to do with Mac Jones.

In this ^ situation the team will pick up his final year option or better yet sign him to a decent extension long before it comes to that... because they're not idiots who believe that a QB can drag a dead last defense to playoff glory using magic powers that are seemingly unquantifiable or not visible in stats... the very notion of which is dumb... idiotic.

There's nothing "strawman" about that, there was no strawman involved at all... anyone can go back to page 9 and read the running conversation.

Dude you just make stuff up. I never said “stats were completely irrelevant and so was defense”. If I did, quote it. Do you have an attention span problem. I’ve stated my position numerous times and you keep posting that I said things I didn’t.

I’ll say it again. The plays that decide a game are 100 times more important that accumulating stats. You seem to want to deflect from that. I’m not sure why.

 

[Wozzy]

Dude you just make stuff up. I never said “stats were completely irrelevant and so was defense”. If I did, quote it. Do you have an attention span problem. I’ve stated my position numerous times and you keep posting that I said things I didn’t.

I’ll say it again. The plays that decide a game are 100 times more important that accumulating stats. You seem to want to deflect from that. I’m not sure why.

Sure… you never said anything.

The only reason we’re discussing Brees being #3 on the all-time game winning drives list is because you argued he wasn’t clutch enough… that had he been more “clutch” his 32nd ranked defense wouldn’t have mattered.

Anyone can go back to page 9, read what you wrote at the start of our conversation.

I’m done here, you can’t even keep your talking points honest or based in reality.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

You won't actually do it, but if you ranked the top 20 NFL players of the last 30 years then which position do you think would have the highest representation? How many long snappers and ST gunners make your list? Interior OL or DL? Safeties? Fullbacks? Even RBs? It's a team after all, so you'll have equal representation across all position groups, right?... WRONG!

No order - Brady, Donald, Watt, Calvin, Revis, Peterson, LT, Von, Brees, Joe Thomas, Jason Peters, Trent Williams, Kuechly, Rodgers, Gronk, Kelce, Gates, Manning, Martin, Kelce would have to be in the top 30.


@Wozzy

@Ring 6

Please do us all a favor and go back and dig up all the post to prove your point. That will help. A lot.

 

[Ring 6]

Lists are for small minds... you love lists.

Rank the top 20 players... based on what... Crawdaddy's opinion?

You think QB's are all that matters, it's a child-like interpretation of football. I can't rationally discuss football with you because you don't have a rational bone in your body... you believe in superheroes.

You can’t be missing the fact that when someone says QBs are most important you respond QBS ARENT ALL THAT MATTERS.
Do you agree or disagree that the Qb is the player who has the most impact on winning it losing?

 

[Ring 6]

Sure… you never said anything.

The only reason we’re discussing Brees being #3 on the all-time game winning drives list is because you argued he wasn’t clutch enough… that had he been more “clutch” his 32nd ranked defense wouldn’t have mattered.

Anyone can go back to page 9, read what you wrote at the start of our conversation.

I’m done here, you can’t even keep your talking points honest or based in reality.

We are discussing Brees because you brought him into the conversation. I never argued he wasn’t clutch enough. I said how a qb plays when the game is on the line means more than his cumulative stats.

Dude you are arguing against yourself.

 

[Ring 6]

Sure… you never said anything.

The only reason we’re discussing Brees being #3 on the all-time game winning drives list is because you argued he wasn’t clutch enough… that had he been more “clutch” his 32nd ranked defense wouldn’t have mattered.

Anyone can go back to page 9, read what you wrote at the start of our conversation.

I’m done here, you can’t even keep your talking points honest or based in reality.

So your argument is that the purpose of the game isn’t to win, it’s to get cool stats?
Because I said winning is what matters. Are you saying big stats are more important and winning doesn’t matter? Interesting. No wonder we disagree.

 

[Zuma]

Why Patriots' new 'normal' not only has Mac Jones encouraged, but Tom Brady too

Last year, one position on New England's coaching staff in particular was a mess. This year, the solution caught the eye of the franchise's biggest icon.

sports.yahoo.com

 

[Joker]

crawgoogeegaagaa and his "lists"....idiot must be a janitor somewhere