It's all up to Gagne now

[patriotspride]

I was talking about someone for the bench, not someone like Dye who would be starting almost every day. It would not have cost a lot to get someone like Ty Wigginton, or Xavier Nady, or Sammy Sosa, or Rob Mackowiak, or Mike Piazza; someone who is not an easy out when a regular is given the day off. But now they either stick with a poor bench or hope for a waiver deal and sign guys like Bobby Keilty and Junior Spivey.

if they could have made a reasonable deal involving those guys they would have .last time i checked none of the guys you mention have changed teams except ty wiggington.what does that tell you?it tells me those teams wanted to much.where would piazza play??please dont tell me he can play the outfield.

 

[Foley]

Mackowiak was traded along with some other hitters that I didn't mention. And the A's attempted to trade Piazza (and still are).

Piazza played a lot of games at 1B in 2004 so I don't see why he couldn't play there again. And he'd be a great bat of the bench even if he wasn't capable of filling in anywhere without being a huge defensive liability.

Sosa has been moved to the bench in Texas to make room for a prospect that Texas wants to play full time. I'd find it hard to believe that they would have asked a lot for a 38 year old playing part time who is not under contract for next year.

Nady probably would have had a much bigger price tag on him than the others, but that makes sense as he is a whole lot better than the others.

 

[patriotspride]

Mackowiak was traded along with some other hitters that I didn't mention. And the A's attempted to trade Piazza (and still are).

Piazza played a lot of games at 1B in 2004 so I don't see why he couldn't play there again. And he'd be a great bat of the bench even if he wasn't capable of filling in anywhere without being a huge defensive liability.

Sosa has been moved to the bench in Texas to make room for a prospect that Texas wants to play full time. I'd find it hard to believe that they would have asked a lot for a 38 year old playing part time who is not under contract for next year.

Nady probably would have had a much bigger price tag on him than the others, but that makes sense as he is a whole lot better than the others.

and what should the redsox have given up to get one of those players?i dont find it hard to believe that the teams those players are on wanted to much because that is the trend in the majors for the last several years and if they could have been had for a reasonable offer the sox would have done the deal.

 

[Foley]

Well, Mackowiak was traded for a reliever with a 4.17ERA in 166IP in the minors, and Wigginton was traded for a reliever with a career ERA just under 4 and 1.30WHIP. Both would have been good bench guys, both were had for cheap.

Someone like David Pauley (with comparable minor league stats to Gabbard) could have been dangled to a team like Texas who likes groundball pitchers. Brandon Moss had better AAA numbers than David Murphy in addition to being 2 years younger. If Murphy and Gabbard was enough to get the best reliever on the trade market, than Moss and Pauley would have been enough to get a decent bat.

The trend the last several years is not to hoard players that don't help your team this year if they are gone at the end of the season anyway.

 

[patriotspride]

Well, Mackowiak was traded for a reliever with a 4.17ERA in 166IP in the minors, and Wigginton was traded for a reliever with a career ERA just under 4 and 1.30WHIP. Both would have been good bench guys, both were had for cheap.

Someone like David Pauley (with comparable minor league stats to Gabbard) could have been dangled to a team like Texas who likes groundball pitchers. Brandon Moss had better AAA numbers than David Murphy in addition to being 2 years younger. If Murphy and Gabbard was enough to get the best reliever on the trade market, than Moss and Pauley would have been enough to get a decent bat.

The trend the last several years is not to hoard players that don't help your team this year if they are gone at the end of the season anyway.

no the trend has been teams asking for to much in return for trades at the dead line .the sox gave up Murphy gabbard and beltre .three players not two. and gabbard has shown he can pitch in the majors .Pauly sucks.your one of those guys that thinks other teams are stupid .the redsox did everything they could have .there was no other trade to be made that made any sense or worked for both teams .even the wsox acknowledge that the redsox made the best offer for dye the wsox just decided to go in another direction.you are the ultimate contrarian.

 

[Foley]

Three games doesn't mean that Pauley sucks. He may not have had as much success in three career major league starts, but he is still a year younger than Gabbard and has comparable (better, actually) stats to him in the minors. I'm not saying that he and Moss was a greater or equal package to the one that got Gagne, but its still a lot for a Piazza or a Sosa, or any other guy who is on a bad team who is a free agent at the end of the season. They could throw in a Hunter Jones (same age, higher level, but with better stats across the board than the guy traded for Mackowiak) if Moss and Pauley wasn't enough.

I don't think that other teams are stupid, I'm just looking at the market, looking at what Mackowiak and Wigginton went for, and not seeing an absurdly high price for these types of hitters. I'm sure that some teams ask too much, but clearly some teams weren't if those two went for so little.

 

[Double G]

Fixit, how dead on accurate was your thread as it is indeed all up to Gagne now; so far, he has cost the Red Sox two games in the standings, he has looked just brutal..........

 

[Brady'sButtBoy]

The noose is tightening. Tito the junior says all is good, all is going to be OK... meanwhile the Yanks trim 10.5 games from the lead in barely a month.

The Gagne deal upset what was a steady bullpen where each guy knew his role. Now Oki is starting to look out of whack and Gagne just can't find his place at all. but don't forget that Tito's magic when it comes to handling pros and their egos....ha ha ha

 

[Real World]

I'm curious if you're a Sons of Sam Horn poster/lurker. I lurk there, and there's a Chamberlain-Buccholz debate going on over there right now (although, I think it turned into a Chamberlain-Masterson debate?).

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see the Sox and Yanks bring up their highly touted pitching chips over the next few years. We Sox fans are pretty high on our talent, but the MFY fans are on theirs as well. While I'm no scout, I'd say we edge them in quality, and most certainly in quantity - though the notion that the Yankees farm system is somehow gutted is quite far from the truth, especially when you think about Hughes and Chamberlain.

Buckholz is a good prospect, but Chamberlain is the goods.

The Yankees are stacked with quality arms, but are thin on position prospects. Their positionals are mostly down in A ball. Their arms though, are all over the organization, and are of exceptional quality at both AA & AAA. I think their Trenton team has 2-3 no hitters this year.

 

[Real World]

Thoughts on the trade:

I'm sick of the notion that Texas required top talent from the Yankees while settling for less from the Sox. Yes Texas asked for Hughes or Chamberlain. They also asked for Ellsbury, Lester, or Buchholz. The Sox said no and negotiated using lesser players. The Yankees had the same option and chose to not do so. The fact that the Yankees attached the "untouchable" label to everyone in their entire system was the reason why they didn't get Gagne.

The Yankees couldn't make this trade because they refused to trade their version of Murphy (Melky, who is basically Murphy but proven that he can cut it as a ML 4th OF) and they don't have a guy like Gabbard (and if they did, they'd need him). You have to either trade useful-now-but-low-ceiling guys or prospects. The Yankees don't have many of the former and refused to trade any of the latter.

.

Melky is the Yankees version of Murphy? Are you bleeping nuts?

Anyhow, back to reality. The Yankees weren't giving up Horne, Kennedy, Chamberlain, Hughes, or Marquez. They'd have maybe done Clippard, and surely a Desalvo, or White. If i'm the Rangers, I take Gabbard and the 17 year old over either.

 

[mangenious]

So uhm... How about that gagne

 

[mtbykr]

How bad has Gagne been.....despite yesterday's 2/3 of an inning, 2 run homer, 13.50era............his overall ERA went down

 

[sdaniels7114]

How much time do you give this guy? I know he means rest for Okie and Paps; but I don't think the plan was for him to pitch in August so they could rest all through October

 

[patriotspride]

How much time do you give this guy? I know he means rest for Okie and Paps; but I don't think the plan was for him to pitch in August so they could rest all through October

its not easy being a redsox fan

 

[Double G]

If you're Francoma, you keep trotting him out there no matter how much he gets shelled. He cost them two friggin games in the standings.

@#$%ing Orioles and @#$%ing Millar.

We all knew the 200+ Million Dollar Yankees wouldn't suck all year, it would be next to impossible.

If (and it's still an IF, right?) they blow this lead and do not get in as the wild card, consider the 2004 debt repaid in full, advantage back to the Yankees.........

 

[mangenious]

If you're Francoma, you keep trotting him out there no matter how much he gets shelled. He cost them two friggin games in the standings.

@#$%ing Orioles and @#$%ing Millar.

We all knew the 200+ Million Dollar Yankees wouldn't suck all year, it would be next to impossible.

If (and it's still an IF, right?) they blow this lead and do not get in as the wild card, consider the 2004 debt repaid in full, advantage back to the Yankees.........

This coming from a team with a $130 million dollar payroll?

 

[Real World]

This coming from a team with a $130 million dollar payroll?

I thought it was $160 million? What's the difference anyhow.

 

[mangenious]

I thought it was $160 million? What's the difference anyhow.

I dunno. At what point does payroll not make that big a deal?

 

[sdaniels7114]

The real question is exactly what the lead needs to be for the Yankmee trolls to feel sufficiently emboldened?

And the answer is: 4 games.

 

[BradyManny]

I dunno. At what point does payroll not make that big a deal?

Not sure how valid these are, but take a look, both are pre-luxury tax.

Sox = 143 million:
http://www.sportscity.com/MLB/Boston-Red-Sox-Salaries


Yankees = 212 million:
http://www.sportscity.com/MLB/New-York-Yankees-Salaries

Personally, I'm not exactly enamored with the Sox ever-growing salary, particularly as it hasn't turned into results. I think it's moderately embarrassing for either of these teams if they don't make it to the playoffs in a given year, but much more so for the Yankees.

Even with their bloated payroll, the Sox are still 70 mill behind the Yanks. Teams like the Twins, Orioles, Jays, etc., hover around that 70 million payroll as is. It's just such a huge advantage.

If the Sox had that 70 million to spend, that could buy you (2006 salaries of) Albert Pujols, Carlos Beltran, Vlad Guerrero, Roy Halladay, Roy Oswalt & Johan Santana. Just gives you a little perspectve on the kind of advantage the Yankees have, and what a joke it is that their team fails to win the world series with their payroll.