But It's Not Mac's Fault....

[yukon cornelius]

You can get by with a great QB and average receivers but not an average QB with average receivers.

or below average receivers

 

[JarOfMayo51]

I don't think he will be that either, although he'll possibly get another contract on another team to give it a try.

My point was that he's good already having made it to the first round of the NFL draft and gotten a commensurate contract worth millions of dollars. That's a pretty substantial achievement and starting point for a young man's life in the USA and he can do pretty well from that point given such a start. Why would anyone feel sorry for him though?

oh i dont feel sorry for him, hes getting paid a lot of money to underperform

he'll get at least 1 shot at being a backup, id be curious what an offensive coach/team like the 49ers could do with him

 

[Ring 6]

or below average receivers

Or one of the worst few starting QBs in the NFL (the only ones worse are rookies or temporary)

 

[yukon cornelius]

Or one of the worst few starting QBs in the NFL (the only ones worse are rookies or temporary)

i disagree - the way mac has been thrown to the wolves with a revolving door of OCs, and with an extreme dearth of playmaking talent around him, we have no clue where mac stands as a pro......and we may never know what he could do here......but to say we have a definitive read on mac as an nfl QB is an astoundingly flawed narrative

but those are kind of your forte, yes?

 

[Ring 6]

If there is any question that Mac Jones is the problem, this is the proof.
Since 2020 in Mac Jones starts the patriots average 21.75 ppg (17.7 in the last 23)
With cam Newton, Bailey Zappe or Brian hoyer starting they average 21.94

Anyone think we can win with Newton, hoyer or Zappe?

 

[yukon cornelius]

If there is any question that Mac Jones is the problem, this is the proof.
Since 2020 in Mac Jones starts the patriots average 21.75 ppg (17.7 in the last 23)
With cam Newton, Bailey Zappe or Brian hoyer starting they average 21.94

Anyone think we can win with Newton, hoyer or Zappe?

lol lol lol @ your proof

 

[Ring 6]

i disagree - the way mac has been thrown to the wolves with a revolving door of OCs, and with an extreme dearth of playmaking talent around him, we have no clue where mac stands as a pro......and we may never know what he could do here......but to say we have a definitive read on mac as an nfl QB is an astoundingly flawed narrative

but those are kind of your forte, yes?

You simply have to watch him play. Okays are drawn up that get receivers open, and he is coached to read the play and execute it and he doesn’t. Does coaching force him to throw back across the field, something you are coached aggaibstvfrom
Pop Warner on, and get picked?
Look at the film. Since 2020 we have scored more points when Newton, hoyer or Zappe play than jones.

I was extremely patient and supportive of him, but you can’t watch these games and not see that he is the main thing holding the offense back. You can’t have a qb who insists on being dink and dunk who makes inaccurate throws on 3rd down. And that’s him in a nutshell.

 

[Ring 6]

lol lol lol @ your proof

So 3 QBs that no one would consider starting caliber do better than him in the exact same circumstances and it’s someone else’s fault?
I mean what do you want out of a qb if it isn’t scoring points.

Jonnu Smith and Agholor have done better everywhere else than they did with him. Juju was wr1 on a sb champion. Hunter Henry is a good TE. Meyers is better without Jones. His per snap #s were better with cam freaking Newton, before he had any experience. Parker was better in Miami with slug QBs than here with jones.
Jones is ruining the weapons. They all seem to do pretty well when they have a different QB.

 

[jdlboot14]

It's just so simple. Mac isn't Brady (or a top 10 QB). But could be a serviceable winner in the right (talented) offense.
But we haven't had anything close to that here during his tenure. So we'll likely never know.

But who's to say Maye or Penix will be better? We still have to rebuild this offense.
Mac appeared great his last year at Bama, doing the same things these current NCAA stars do.
I watched Maye tape recently. He has SO much time, barely touched, and still rolls out of the pocket too quick.
He throws to WIDE open WR's and it all looks so easy. Kinda like a certain QB who won the NCAA championship in '20
There's just a 1/5 probability that any rookie QB will work out.

 

[yukon cornelius]

So 3 QBs that no one would consider starting caliber do better than him in the exact same circumstances and it’s someone else’s fault?
I mean what do you want out of a qb if it isn’t scoring points.

Jonnu Smith and Agholor have done better everywhere else than they did with him. Juju was wr1 on a sb champion. Hunter Henry is a good TE. Meyers is better without Jones. His per snap #s were better with cam freaking Newton, before he had any experience. Parker was better in Miami with slug QBs than here with jones.
Jones is ruining the weapons. They all seem to do pretty well when they have a different QB.

hoyer in his what, one start? zappe in his 2? cherrypick much?

you wanted jonnu and agholor so succeed in an offense that was doomed from the OC down? QB is far from the only factor influencing performance....play design, play call, supporting cast, etc, etc

meyers is playing with who else at WR right now? and with what OC?

it's an oversimplification to put all the credit or all the blame on the QB, especially right now in NE where they have systemically ****ed up this offense for 3 years running

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Every starter but Troy brown and Joe andruzzi on offense changed from 00 to 01.

The 2000 team had Armstrong, Andruzzi, Woody, Randall, Faulk, Pass, Glenn, Brown, Wiggins and Rutledge.

The 2001 team lost Armstrong and Glenn, and added Compton, Light, Edwards, Patten, Fauria, and A. Smith.

My fingers are tired from down so many interchangeable JAGs, and it’s normal business to replace unremarkable players each year. What an “overhaul” despite that many would prefer the 2000 cast with Glenn.

This “overhauled” 2001 offense scored 20 points in their first two games. I’m sure it was coaching that suddenly changed in game 3, though, and these guys - both the coaches and players - just happened to all
hit career spikes, with Brady. So coincidental.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

What a stacked offense Brady had in 2001. Let’s look at his box score stats to judge if he’s elite and stacks up against the statistical leaders at the position. That’s reasonable

 

[goheels22002]

The team only had 4 penalties yesterday, dysfunction at the QB position is why they lost.

Enough with the excuses and agenda driven nonsense.

Well, there is indeed blame to go around, but I agree that Mac Jones is not an NFL caliber starting quarterback. At this point in the proceedings, we do not want him to blossom into even an average NFL QB. The Patriots are on their way to early selections in every round of the 2024 NFL Draft. Wouldn't that be a treat?

It was instructive watching Commanders second-year QB Sam Howell (a fellow UNC alum #GDTBATH) in his 9th NFL start. Howell is ahead of Mac, sees the field better, and spun the ball into tight windows better. Howell is not a top ten QB at this time, but could be. He's sturdy, learning when to stay home and when to run (he ran a lot in college). Mac is regressing while Sam in developing.

Sam Howell has a better offensive line but much less to work with at the skill positions. There were no skill players on the Commanders that the Pats defense couldn't handle. The Commanders ground away all afternoon picking up first downs and did just enough to win the game. Sam did throw a beautiful TD pass into good coverage, though.

Staying on just the Patriots offensive side of the line, I actually see a lot of good players here that a legitimate NFL-ready QB, even a rookie, could work with, particularly at the skill positions. As pass catchers the backfield is fine - Zeke and Rhamondre are a solid tandem, the TEs are collectively better than average, especially with Pharoah proving he's a threat in the seam. The wideouts are interesting to me - Schuster is showing signs of being able to get separation, Bourne is great, Douglas is solid. That's eight pass catchers right there that a decent QB could definitely utilize to get first downs and TDs, particularly in play action given the quality of the running backs.

Bill O'Brien is calling a good offensive game. It's more diverse and a much better run/pass and occasional shots down the field than Patricia did. Mac does not see open receivers, doesn't feel pressure, and throws off his back foot way too much. Jimmy Garoppolo would have picked the Commanders apart (and kept the defense off the field) even without Bourne and Parker.

The offensive line is below average. I love Christian Gonzalez, but the Patriots whiffed in the first round when there were multiple NFL-ready offensive linemen available. They should have signed a proven veteran and drafted a first-round lineman. Nothing matters in football if you cannot hold your own in the trenches.

The Patriots need a new QB and at least two above average offensive linemen. Brake for Drake!

 

[lancerman]

or below average receivers

Or bad receivers

 

[Thelonious]

I guess reading comprehension is not your strong suit.

I said "he's got a foundation from which his future is secure. That's great and I'm happy for him to achieve that despite his inability to be an NFL QB." Where from that do you derive that I'm jealous or vindictive? I'm happy he's going to have such a good foundation to start his young life; enough money to buy a house, a degree from a decent state school, money to invest or start a business, go into the sports industry in some manner, whatever. I was not happy that he was our QB because he's shown he can't handle the job. That's okay, this is true for all but around 15 people in the USA. At least he had a shot at it before he showed he wasn't up to the task and got paid well along the way.

That this is somehow Marxist...I don't think you understand that either. But seeing as I live in Laos, I am probably much more acquainted with those aspects of politics than you are.

The Marxist take is that anyone who succeeds does so by "victimizing" and "oppressing" those who have not done as well as they. By appeal to that lie, they secure the votes of that nation's losers. Often, as they gain influence, when the democracy they are seeking to destroy (as a "tool of capitalism") begins to weaken, leftists will so manage the economy so as to increase the number of losers on whose votes they depend. Witness "Bidenomics." They will also import losers from abroad to increase their voter base. Witness the current administration's "immigration policy." As this sort of sickness takes hold, there is a tendency to disparage anyone who aspires to or achieves success, and so it is that those with advantages in life - typically as the result of their parents' earned success in life - the Mac Joneses of the world are disparaged for those advantages, and any failure they may encounter serves as an occasion for sleazeball ressentiment and gloating, vindictive celebration. Wittness Pol Pot;s Cambodia, Soviet Russia, et al) The result is that losers, fools, and jealous dimwits come to dominate, weakening the nation preparatory to the replacement, in effect, of a functioning society (a gemeinschaft) with an autocratic bureacracy (a gesellschaft) which in fairly short order develops as sort of rabid institutional self interest which only enhances the totalitarian impulses of the new in-crowd. And that is how the present decadent ethos in the nation conduces to the sort of angry, smirky dismissive horseshit so common here re Mac. Everything really is, as even the leftists often acknowledge, political, even football chat. I could respond to your other points, but I find I am disinclined to cast further pearls before you, in keeping with the Biblical injunction.

 

[Ring 6]

hoyer in his what, one start? zappe in his 2? cherrypick much?

you wanted jonnu and agholor so succeed in an offense that was doomed from the OC down? QB is far from the only factor influencing performance....play design, play call, supporting cast, etc, etc

meyers is playing with who else at WR right now? and with what OC?

it's an oversimplification to put all the credit or all the blame on the QB, especially right now in NE where they have systemically ****ed up this offense for 3 years running

Not cherry picking at all. I compared the patriots since 2020 with jones at qb to with anyone else.

So everyone does better without Mac than with him, and that means it’s everyone else’s fault?
If it’s other things beside qb why is the same exact team actually worse with Mac than with all the other guys?

I’m not putting all the credit or blame on one guy.
I looked at
1) does the team do better with him than slugs? Nope. If he wasn’t the problem he would do better than the slugs.
2) you blame the other players. So do they do better with him or somewhere else? They do better somehow else

He makes the weapons bad.

 

[Ring 6]

What a stacked offense Brady had in 2001. Let’s look at his box score stats to judge if he’s elite and stacks up against the statistical leaders at the position. That’s reasonable

View attachment 54418

Hmmm, find out you are wrong and change the subject. Nice trick.

The discussion was you saying the only change was Brady.
In fact almost everything changed. So now you bring up the Rams. It would be puzzling if I didn’t already know your mo.

 

[Ring 6]

It's just so simple. Mac isn't Brady (or a top 10 QB). But could be a serviceable winner in the right (talented) offense.
But we haven't had anything close to that here during his tenure. So we'll likely never know.

But who's to say Maye or Penix will be better? We still have to rebuild this offense.
Mac appeared great his last year at Bama, doing the same things these current NCAA stars do.
I watched Maye tape recently. He has SO much time, barely touched, and still rolls out of the pocket too quick.
He throws to WIDE open WR's and it all looks so easy. Kinda like a certain QB who won the NCAA championship in '20
There's just a 1/5 probability that any rookie QB will work out.

If he could be good with better players around him then he would capitalize on the plays the players around him run well.
Every NFL player is capable of good plays. The better ones make them more frequently, against better competition, etc.
If it were the other players you would see good QB play mixed with dead plays. In Macs case that’s not what happens. There are rarely good plays. The best he does is not messing up the routine play.
Watch the film. There are open receivers all day long.

 

[Ring 6]

The 2000 team had Armstrong, Andruzzi, Woody, Randall, Faulk, Pass, Glenn, Brown, Wiggins and Rutledge.

The 2001 team lost Armstrong and Glenn, and added Compton, Light, Edwards, Patten, Fauria, and A. Smith.

My fingers are tired from down so many interchangeable JAGs, and it’s normal business to replace unremarkable players each year. What an “overhaul” despite that many would prefer the 2000 cast with Glenn.

This “overhauled” 2001 offense scored 20 points in their first two games. I’m sure it was coaching that suddenly changed in game 3, though, and these guys - both the coaches and players - just happened to all
hit career spikes, with Brady. So coincidental.

I missed woody.
60% of the OL. All but 1 receiver TE,RB,FB all were different.

I’m glad that you think 7 of the 11 players on the field are meaningless. Even you know that’s laughable.

 

[yukon cornelius]

Not cherry picking at all. I compared the patriots since 2020 with jones at qb to with anyone else.

So everyone does better without Mac than with him, and that means it’s everyone else’s fault?
If it’s other things beside qb why is the same exact team actually worse with Mac than with all the other guys?

I’m not putting all the credit or blame on one guy.
I looked at
1) does the team do better with him than slugs? Nope. If he wasn’t the problem he would do better than the slugs.
2) you blame the other players. So do they do better with him or somewhere else? They do better somehow else

He makes the weapons bad.

eff 2020....that roster is so far removed from this one

Hoyer started one game in 2022, vs GB, and was replaced by zappe.....so statistically insignificant

zappe started 2 games....again, compared to macs 39, statistically insignificant again......give zappe 39 starts, and give him the same starts mac has had, with this year's roster and schedule, and his numbers would be worse......the coaching staff in NE agrees, and so do 31 other teams


mac is part of the problem......but not THE problem or even the biggest problem......this team has failed him both in coaching and in personnel, and none of this is really up for debate

so yeah, cherrypicking