Pass Rush?

[Tony2046]

Here's where the Pats have ranked in all their 7 SB seasons (5 wins, 2 losses) in terms of overall scoring defense and where they ranked in terms of sacks.

2001: #6 scoring, #t13 sacks, Won SB
2003: #1 scoring, #6 sacks, Won SB
2004: #2 scoring, #5 sacks, Won SB
2007: #4 scoring, #2 sacks, Lost SB
2011: #15 scoring, #14 sacks, Lost SB
2014: #8 scoring, #t13 sacks, Won SB
2016: #1 scoring, #16 sacks, Won SB

So in years they won the Super Bowl, they were ranked 13th, 6th, 5th, 13th, and 16th in sacks. In the years they lost the Super Bowl, they were 2nd and 14th in sacks.

I know pass rush is not just sacks. But over the course of a season, over that larger sample size, a good pass rush will eventually lead to sacks. They've never, in the BB era, really been worse than at least average at rushing the passer, and often they've been really good. But three of the years they've won the SB they've been basically average at, at least, generating sacks.

In other words.... I'm not worried.

Good post.

Yeah it's not necessarily that they can't get sacks but they won't sell out to get one either. One of the best examples of that would be the AFCCG against Pittsburgh last season. The big guys up front control the line of scrimmage, the DE/OLB's contained the edge and the MLB patiently waited for Bell to choose his lane during run plays and pick a gap to pressure the QB during pass plays.

Run play: Outside guys maintain the edge, big guys control the line and Van Noy waits for Bell to choose his lane.


Pass play: They got pressure but prioritized keeping Big Ben in the pocket. Btw, this pass was almost picked off by Butler.

 

[Ivan]

Belichick has always been able to figure out these problems and I expect the same this season. He was stewed at defensive tackle halfway through 2014 and he rebuilt the unit on the fly and they won the Super Bowl

 

[captain stone]

I think we will see a 3-3-5 more with someone like Richards supporting the run defense and covering the RB. Van Noy, Hightower, Marsh, Langi, McClellan all have trouble covering the RB.

So does Richards.

 

[SammyBlueCat]

Great headline, no one owns the Patriots like Houston does.

Apparently...

 

[SammyBlueCat]

This year's front 7 is starting to have a monty Beisel, Chad brown, Shaun Ellis, adalius Thomas feel to it....

?????

 

[DarrylS]

After watching "Do Your Job 2" it reminded me that superior coaching can pretty much outweigh or hide many defensive "inadequacies"...

Will be interesting to see how the defensive rotation evolves by November.. anticipate seeing more schemes like Chung playing a hybrid defender as the need arises..

 

[SlowGettingUp]

Jeff Howe on their "problem" - multi-role players get in the opposing QBs and OLs heads:

The Patriots don’t have a defensive end problem.
Opposing quarterbacks do.
Patriots’ defensive front seven a blessing in disguise

 

[Ring 6]

Let me point out in advance that tomorrow night the people on this board who are only happy when they have something to complain about will have plenty of ammo with the pass rush.
Why?
We are facing checkdown Charlie and dump it off Andy.
There will be MANY pass plays run that will be quick drops and short passes that if we had the 7 greatest pass rushers of all time in the front 7 they wouldn't have time to generate a rush.
FYI many teams will use that game plan against us as well because they know the primary directive of the defense is to not give up big plays. If you prioritize not giving up big plays you are weaker on short passes.

I would love to see someone create a statistic that compares sacks to number of attempts more than 10 years downfield. That would be very insightful.

 

[Patjew]

?????

My thoughts exactly. Those 4 were never close to being on the team at the same time.

 

[Thelonious]

So if I show up on a job and never get around to using my philips screwdriver because it's old work and all the screws are slotheads, does that make me a lousy carpenter? I think that's how BB looks at the pass rush (and many other things). Sometimes, for some jobs, for some teams, it is just the tool you need, Other times it isn't. I'll bet Belichick couldn't care less about gross sack numbers. It's a tool to have in the box, sure, but you won't always use it.

Stats are for losers, as they say.

 

[BobDigital]

Ability to rush the passer is a concern and needs to be watched but it just has never been a huge focus on how BB tends to build his D.

I think BBs defensive philosophy has become clear and it goes beyond just the old bend don't break. I think he has a general guide he goes by when putting together a D and tends to have rules he lives by on the whole though he leaves room for flexibility sake of course. I would argue his rules are

They are stop the run, prevent big pass plays, collapse the pocket so the QB can't escape. That is what he lives and dies by generally and I think he has good reasoning for it. Here they are I would guess.

#1 Run defense is the most dependable defense - meaning it is something you can do consistently with good play and players built to do it. The D has the edge cause they need to get around you as opposed to you around them. If you tie/hold you win. Also run stopping players tend to be very affordable.

#2 QBs tend to make mistakes when the game is put entirely on them. Take away the run game from most QBs and they mess up. Playing QB is hard. The only guy who passes 50 times and wins reliably is Tom Brady. When you put that much strain on most other QBs and force them to be patient, make the right reads and do it all without help from a run game they tend to screw up. Even great ones. If you stop the run and they don't abandon it that is fine to as you force a lot of 3rd downs. It is a lose/lose situation for most offenses.

#3 Coverage is more reliable than pass rush. As a pass rusher you need to win to be effective. A great pass rusher cost about as much as a great CB. However if you face a truly talented OT or just are bumped well and handed off effectively a lot of your impact leaves the game. A great pass rusher can absolutely take over games at times but they can also disappear for long periods at times. BB likes dependability play to play. He hates waiting on those big plays to turn games around and would rather have consistency. A CB is rarely washed out of a play and can always have an impact of taking something away. Also he doesn't need to clearly win. Sometimes his coverage can be so tight a pass in pointless and sometimes a pass is possible but a QB thinks it is too tight and doesn't try it. You don't need the clear win to win... just the appearance of one and sometimes when you fail it is not taken advantage of.

I am pretty sure this is how BB thinks. Great pass rushing takes over a game like nothing else. It is absolutely the most dominant form of defense there is. However it also has quiet moments. BB would rather have the consistency of stopping the run and the long pass with good overall coverage and force you to play well all game to beat him. He likes a solid B all game as opposed to an A the first half and C the next.

Back before salary cap you could have it all. Now you usually can't. I think BB is right about his choice though it is frustrating at times.

 

[SlowGettingUp]

Ability to rush the passer is a concern and needs to be watched but it just has never been a huge focus on how BB tends to build his D.

I think BBs defensive philosophy has become clear and it goes beyond just the old bend don't break. I think he has a general guide he goes by when putting together a D and tends to have rules he lives by on the whole though he leaves room for flexibility sake of course. I would argue his rules are

They are stop the run, prevent big pass plays, collapse the pocket so the QB can't escape. That is what he lives and dies by generally and I think he has good reasoning for it. Here they are I would guess.

#1 Run defense is the most dependable defense - meaning it is something you can do consistently with good play and players built to do it. The D has the edge cause they need to get around you as opposed to you around them. If you tie/hold you win. Also run stopping players tend to be very affordable.

#2 QBs tend to make mistakes when the game is put entirely on them. Take away the run game from most QBs and they mess up. Playing QB is hard. The only guy who passes 50 times and wins reliably is Tom Brady. When you put that much strain on most other QBs and force them to be patient, make the right reads and do it all without help from a run game they tend to screw up. Even great ones. If you stop the run and they don't abandon it that is fine to as you force a lot of 3rd downs. It is a lose/lose situation for most offenses.

#3 Coverage is more reliably than pass rush. As a pass rusher you need to win to be effective. A great pass rusher cost about as much as a great QB. However if you face a truly talented OT or just are bumped well and handed off effectively a lot of your impact leaves the game. A great pass rusher can absolutely take over games at times but they can also disappear for long periods at times. BB likes dependability play to play. He hates waiting on those big plays to turn games around and would rather have consistency. A CB is rarely washed out of a play and can always have an impact of taking something away. Also he doesn't need to clearly win. Sometimes his coverage can be so tight a pass in pointless and sometimes a pass is possible but a QB thinks it is too tight and doesn't try it. You don't need the clear win to win... just the appearance of one and sometimes when you fail it is not taken advantage of.

I am pretty sure this is how BB thinks. Great pass rushing takes over a game like nothing else. It is absolutely the most dominant form of defense there is. However it also has quiet moments. BB would rather have the consistency of stopping the run and the long pass with good overall coverage and force you to play well all game to beat him. He likes a solid B all game as opposed to an A the first half and C the next.

Back before salary cap you could have it all. Now you usually can't. I think BB is right about his choice though it is frustrating at times.

Exactly - if you look where they have spent their money on defense, they are a secondary-heavy but pass-rush-specialist light team. They tried going cheap on corners for a few years and then figured out that it was a mistake in today's NFL. But they have never, ever in recent years sprung for a high-end pass rusher. You can do a lot with scheme in the pass-rush, but a crappy corner is often out there on his own.

Yes it is going to be frustrating at times when they rush 3 and the opposing QB seems to have all the time in the world while Brady seems to be under constant pressure from expensive and flashy DEs. But that's the strategic choice Bill has made, and in Bill we Trust.

 

[captain stone]

I would love to see someone create a statistic that compares sacks to number of attempts more than 10 years downfield. That would be very insightful.

I would ask Jeff Howe.

 

[tasmlab]

Is lack of getting the edge guys behind the OL always a lack of a Von Miller type or is it also sound strategy? I.e., designing the defense to prevent in other ways than constant QB pressure. It seems like BB likes to keep the game in front of the defense a lot of the times and win the play other ways than just getting sacks.

 

[Tony2046]

Ability to rush the passer is a concern and needs to be watched but it just has never been a huge focus on how BB tends to build his D.

I think BBs defensive philosophy has become clear and it goes beyond just the old bend don't break. I think he has a general guide he goes by when putting together a D and tends to have rules he lives by on the whole though he leaves room for flexibility sake of course. I would argue his rules are

They are stop the run, prevent big pass plays, collapse the pocket so the QB can't escape. That is what he lives and dies by generally and I think he has good reasoning for it. Here they are I would guess.

#1 Run defense is the most dependable defense - meaning it is something you can do consistently with good play and players built to do it. The D has the edge cause they need to get around you as opposed to you around them. If you tie/hold you win. Also run stopping players tend to be very affordable.

#2 QBs tend to make mistakes when the game is put entirely on them. Take away the run game from most QBs and they mess up. Playing QB is hard. The only guy who passes 50 times and wins reliably is Tom Brady. When you put that much strain on most other QBs and force them to be patient, make the right reads and do it all without help from a run game they tend to screw up. Even great ones. If you stop the run and they don't abandon it that is fine to as you force a lot of 3rd downs. It is a lose/lose situation for most offenses.

#3 Coverage is more reliable than pass rush. As a pass rusher you need to win to be effective. A great pass rusher cost about as much as a great CB. However if you face a truly talented OT or just are bumped well and handed off effectively a lot of your impact leaves the game. A great pass rusher can absolutely take over games at times but they can also disappear for long periods at times. BB likes dependability play to play. He hates waiting on those big plays to turn games around and would rather have consistency. A CB is rarely washed out of a play and can always have an impact of taking something away. Also he doesn't need to clearly win. Sometimes his coverage can be so tight a pass in pointless and sometimes a pass is possible but a QB thinks it is too tight and doesn't try it. You don't need the clear win to win... just the appearance of one and sometimes when you fail it is not taken advantage of.

I am pretty sure this is how BB thinks. Great pass rushing takes over a game like nothing else. It is absolutely the most dominant form of defense there is. However it also has quiet moments. BB would rather have the consistency of stopping the run and the long pass with good overall coverage and force you to play well all game to beat him. He likes a solid B all game as opposed to an A the first half and C the next.

Back before salary cap you could have it all. Now you usually can't. I think BB is right about his choice though it is frustrating at times.

Great post Bob.

I would only add that it's a complimentary game. Having a powerhouse offense affects defensive strategy imo. There's no need to play risky defense when all you need is a few 3 and outs. Just don't give up the big play and force the QB into a mistake. Whether it's a sack, an interception or an incompletion doesn't really matter just as long as they get the ball back into Brady's hands.

 

[JMC00]

This year's front 7 is starting to have a monty Beisel, Chad brown, Shaun Ellis, adalius Thomas feel to it....

All this needs now is likes from Triumph and Marqui






"Pitchers and catchers in 6 weeks... Pats r toast....fukicng pathetic"
FCB02062, Gameday Thread, 01/14/2017 10:02 EST

"Goodnight 2016 Pats"FCB02062, SB Gameday Thread, 02/05/2017 8:43pm EST
"PITCHERS AND CATCHERS IN A WEEK"FCB02062, SB Gameday Thread, 02/05/2017 8:57pm EST

"Lol... What a pathetic performance in a super bowl... They're gonna be the first team to get blown out in a SB in years... Pathetic...PITCHERS AND CATCHERS BABY"FCB02062, SB Gameday Thread, 02/05/2017 9:02pm EST

@shmessy

 

[patsinthesnow]

Hightower
Flowers
Branch
Brown
Ninkovich

That lineup had elite pass rush productivity in the playoffs whether you measure it by sacks or pressures. The Pats swapped Ninkovich for Van Noy/Marsh & added Guy/Butler as depth at DE.

They also rush 3 more than any team in the league. The pass rush question is somewhat a broken record as the D rarely blitzes nor utilizes pass rush specialists that blow vs. the run. It's about collapsing the pocket.

 

[Ring 6]

Is lack of getting the edge guys behind the OL always a lack of a Von Miller type or is it also sound strategy? I.e., designing the defense to prevent in other ways than constant QB pressure. It seems like BB likes to keep the game in front of the defense a lot of the times and win the play other ways than just getting sacks.

Look at it this way. When freeney played for Indy he had 107 sacks in 163 games so just over 10 a year and his best season was 16 or 1 a game.

In order to do that he rushed the passer as if it were a 7 step drop on every play. Spin moves all over the place taking him out if plays.

When the play was a run he was a liability. When it was a short pass he often took himself out of it. QBs always had escape lanes.

For that at best you get a sack a game and in average 2 every 3 games.

That would never fly with belichick.

Willie mcginest while playing for BB had 36.5 in 84 games which is about 7 per full season.
All of the other plays Willie made by being a complete player who didn't sell out sound team defense were much more valuable than 3 sacks over the course if an entire season, less than one a month.

Keep your eye on Hightower this year. I expect he is going to play a role that is going to have him rush the passer a lot more perhaps even resembling the role of a von Miller.

Assuming both stay healthy I expect Von Miller to have more sacks but Hightower to be a better player with more impact in his defense.

 

[Ring 6]

Hightower
Flowers
Branch
Brown
Ninkovich

That lineup had elite pass rush productivity in the playoffs whether you measure it by sacks or pressures. The Pats swapped Ninkovich for Van Noy/Marsh & added Guy/Butler as depth at DE.

They also rush 3 more than any team in the league. The pass rush question is somewhat a broken record as the D rarely blitzes nor utilizes pass rush specialists that blow vs. the run. It's about collapsing the pocket.

I think you are going to see that the patriots swapped nink for Hightower and Hightower for Harris.

 

[Ring 6]

All this needs now is likes from Triumph and Marqui






"Pitchers and catchers in 6 weeks... Pats r toast....fukicng pathetic"
FCB02062, Gameday Thread, 01/14/2017 10:02 EST

"Goodnight 2016 Pats"FCB02062, SB Gameday Thread, 02/05/2017 8:43pm EST
"PITCHERS AND CATCHERS IN A WEEK"FCB02062, SB Gameday Thread, 02/05/2017 8:57pm EST

"Lol... What a pathetic performance in a super bowl... They're gonna be the first team to get blown out in a SB in years... Pathetic...PITCHERS AND CATCHERS BABY"FCB02062, SB Gameday Thread, 02/05/2017 9:02pm EST

@shmessy

Triumph is too busy trying to figure out how to explain his theory that aWR can drop every single one of his incompletions plus 15% of his catches as well as emailing mike Lombardi to ask him to go work for the colts so he can be right.