Reid vs BB at developing QBs

[Vindicate]

Winning a division? Belichick wins the division 94% of the time with Brady in 18 years but 0% of the time without Brady in 10 years. On the other hand, Brady won 2 division titles and a SB championship in only 3 years without Belichick. What each has accomplished without the other is part of the story whether or not you want to address it.

I think what's also part of the story is the context surrounding each year without one another. Going to a team that was a good QB away from being a contender and rebuilding a young team in an increasingly competitive division, with it now being one of the most stacked divisions (on paper) merit respective analysis.

I don't say this to take away from Brady, but the process of coaching and rebuilding a team is a completely different context versus just going to an already built team.

 

[SammyBlueCat]

Reid is a better coach than Belichick. period. Reid's record in Philadelphia was 130-93-1 and included a super bowl appearance and 3 straight NFCCGs. And his record in KC is 117-45 and 2 super bowl titles. His QBs were McNabb, Vick, Smith (5 winning seasons), and Mahomes. In 24 years as HC, he has had only 3 losing seasons.

I believe that these two coaches are on friendly terms.

I do not believe that even Coach Reid would agree with this post.

Both coaches respect each other and give credit where credit is due.

 

[Ian]

But he's in a Division with a lot of overreacted QB's Herbert heads that list...KC is still the Team to beat in the AFC yeah and Reid is Great HC/OC who can match wits with BB 24/7.

Let me put it to you this way. There’s no way Bill Belichick would’ve lost three straight NFC championship games with the players Reid had. And Reid had a shot in the Super Bowl they lost, and his questionable decisions certainly didn’t help him. That’s the difference between the two coaches.

 

[PatsFan2]

Let me put it to you this way. There’s no way Bill Belichick would’ve lost three straight NFC championship games with the players Reid had. And Reid had a shot in the Super Bowl they lost, and his questionable decisions certainly didn’t help him. That’s the difference between the two coaches.

Agreed but I don't think there will be a long time between drinks for Reid going forward he can just ride Mahomes coat sleeves as long as he wants.

 

[sb1]

Vick is probably not the most objective guy for this “debate” lol. He did look awesome though in 2010 that first play long TD throw to Desean Jackson was fun to watch.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Reid is a better coach than Belichick. period. Reid's record in Philadelphia was 130-93-1 and included a super bowl appearance and 3 straight NFCCGs. And his record in KC is 117-45 and 2 super bowl titles. His QBs were McNabb, Vick, Smith (5 winning seasons), and Mahomes. In 24 years as HC, he has had only 3 losing seasons.

OTOH, Belichick's record without Brady is 79-87 and his record in Cleveland was of course abysmal. 7 losing seasons in 28 years, which amounts to 25% of his career.

Personally, I think Ernie Adams saved Belichick's career but I won't get into that here.

You used to defend Bill. Why the change?

 

[ctpatsfan77]

I’ll pretend last season’s coaching fiasco didn’t happen and say I don’t think Bill’s record at developing QBs is too shabby. The GOAT- goes without saying. Matt Cassel- turning a 7th rounder into a serviceable starter. Stidham didn’t work out but Zappe (4th round) should at least be a good backup. Jimmy (2nd) was a Super Bowl starter. Brissett (3rd) is still in the league. Mac Jones (1st) with a competent offense was OROY runner up. Cam was a first rounder but he was on the tail end of his career and there was nothing to develop. There was nothing to develop with Bledsoe either.

Brian Hoyer. . . .

And let's not forget that arguably his biggest flop drafting QBs (Kevin O'Connell) is now the Vikings HC.

 

[JarOfMayo51]

It's going to be interesting to see if Reid can keep the offensive cupboard stocked with guys like Kelce .. we've already have seen a drop off in the wr corps there... Can mahomie Brady up and make do with lesser talent that comes with drafting low year in year out?

well he proved me wrong about Tyreek Hill.. their offense definitely went less vertical and was a little less productive, but not by much

 

[sb1]

Brian Hoyer. . . .

And let's not forget that arguably his biggest flop drafting QBs (Kevin O'Connell) is now the Vikings HC.

Also Kingsbury to a lesser degree I guess.

Shows that BB at least likes his QB's to have a really good understanding of the game.

 

[FCB02062]

As a head coach Andy Reid has won at a high level with different quarterbacks - Bill the Coach has not. Bill the Coach's record without Tom Brady is sub .500, Andy Reid's record without Mahomes is well above .500. Andy Reid has won playoff games with Donovan McNabb, Jeff Garcia, Alex Smith, outside of Mahomes. Coach Bill has won ONE playoff game without Tom Brady (Testaverde). Belichick bobos like to cite the 2001 AFC Championship when Bledsoe played as an example of Bill the Coach winning with someone other than Brady...if that's the case then you have to include Reid winning with Chad Henne filling in for injured Mahomes vs Cleveland in 2020.
At least Andy Reid's teams play exciting offensive football. Since Brady left the Patriots offense, with or without McDaniels, has been akin to watching paint dry.

 

[PlainOldEd]

Reid's clock management alone disqualifies him from GOAT discussion. Good coach, probably HoF coach, not GOAT coach.

 

[crawhammer]

Let me put it to you this way. There’s no way Bill Belichick would’ve lost three straight NFC championship games with the players Reid had. And Reid had a shot in the Super Bowl they lost, and his questionable decisions certainly didn’t help him. That’s the difference between the two coaches.

Belichick managed a SB drought in the prime of Brady's career. Twice the defense failed to stop Eli Manning with a chance at a championship (and an undefeated season). I can think of a handful of head coaches who would have won Super Bowl(s) with Brady 2005-2013. Then, it sounds greedy perhaps, but they should have won 5 Super Bowls in a row from 2014 to 2018, the "failure" to do so is squarely on Belichick.

Reid has the right mentality and approach to win in today's NFL. Same with Sean Payton, which is why I think he'll get Wilson/Denver back on track. The BB model only works when you've got the best player in the history of the league leading your offense and coming up clutch aces literally every time for two decades. If BB lands Hopkins then I think it'll show he's more accepting of what it takes to win in 2023 and that he's willing to go after it.

 

[crawhammer]

I think what's also part of the story is the context surrounding each year without one another. Going to a team that was a good QB away from being a contender and rebuilding a young team in an increasingly competitive division, with it now being one of the most stacked divisions (on paper) merit respective analysis.

I don't say this to take away from Brady, but the process of coaching and rebuilding a team is a completely different context versus just going to an already built team.

The division was a given for two decades. The QB is the key and we had the master key to open up opposing defenses. It's not a coincidence that Brady and Mahomes have won 6 of the last 9 Super Bowls. There are talented teams in the AFC West right now... the Chiefs are a lock to win it though. I really don't think it matters much whether or the AFC East was collectively that strong from 2001 to 2019... the Patriots were beating everyone regularly... they were the safest divisional bet for two decades.

I've said a lot about what Brady accomplished in Tampa Bay, so I won't repeat it, but he strengthened his legacy in a major way, and he was the GOAT walking through their door. The team was garbage, with consecutive losing records to prove it, before Brady got there. They won the friggin Super Bowl in his first season. It's a remarkable accomplishment for Brady that can't be diminished.

 

[Zuma]

Reid's clock management alone disqualifies him from GOAT discussion. Good coach, probably HoF coach, not GOAT coach.

He’s in a special group of coaches that are severely challenged with clock management for sure.

 

[Vindicate]

The division was a given for two decades. The QB is the key and we had the master key to open up opposing defenses. It's not a coincidence that Brady and Mahomes have won 6 of the last 9 Super Bowls. There are talented teams in the AFC West right now... the Chiefs are a lock to win it though. I really don't think it matters much whether or the AFC East was collectively that strong from 2001 to 2019... the Patriots were beating everyone regularly... they were the safest divisional bet for two decades.

I've said a lot about what Brady accomplished in Tampa Bay, so I won't repeat it, but he strengthened his legacy in a major way, and he was the GOAT walking through their door. The team was garbage, with consecutive losing records to prove it, before Brady got there. They won the friggin Super Bowl in his first season. It's a remarkable accomplishment for Brady that can't be diminished.

It'll be interesting to see if Rodgers can have a similar effect with the Jets. They are, as many have at least noted, a good QB away from being a big threat.

And to be clear, I am not at all trying to diminish Brady's accomplishments. It's inarguable. Just when the comparison of "BB or Brady" comes up, a lot of folks just leave it at "look at BB's record without Brady" and that does little to paint the picture of the entirely different roles they have and what that means when analyzing the two.

Apologies if that wasn't your intention.

 

[StrawHatPatriot]

What hurts Bill is simply the fact that his regular and postseason success without Brady is way too pedestrian:

79-87 (.476)
0 division titles
7 losing seasons, 3 winning seasons
2 playoff appearances
1 playoff win

This isn't hate, this is factual. This is not a good look. If he was another coach with this 10 season resume... we'd say that he was just one of those defensive minded Head coaches that eventually got fired a la Rex Ryan, Mike Zimmer, etc. If you're resume is like this without Brady, people are just going to naturally attribute your success to him.

As where Reid without mahomes

(.600)
4 NFC title games
1 super bowl
A bunch of division titles and playoff appearances

With McNabb and Smith and Vick as QBs. None of them are hall of famers. He revitalized Vick's career.

No one is saying Belichick has to win 5 rings without Brady. But it's not a good look for his GOAT case that he has literally struggled to even make the playoffs without him, while we've seen several coaches make deep playoff runs with mid QBs (Rex Ryan, 90s Bill Cowher, Jim Harbaugh in 2011). Especially given his reputation as a guy who can win with anyone.

 

[StrawHatPatriot]

Let me put it to you this way. There’s no way Bill Belichick would’ve lost three straight NFC championship games with the players Reid had. And Reid had a shot in the Super Bowl they lost, and his questionable decisions certainly didn’t help him. That’s the difference between the two coaches.

I'm not saying this to hate on Bill: but can we say this for sure? More importantly McNabb played like ass in those games and choked.

 

[All3Phases]

Let me put it to you this way. There’s no way Bill Belichick would’ve lost three straight NFC championship games with the players Reid had. And Reid had a shot in the Super Bowl they lost, and his questionable decisions certainly didn’t help him. That’s the difference between the two coaches.

To be fair, he probably just wouldnt have made it to the NFCCGs to begin with...based on his history. Tough to knock a guy who was constantly great without a great qb when comparing him to a guy that literally isnt .500 without Brady

 

[All3Phases]

What hurts Bill is simply the fact that his regular and postseason success without Brady is way too pedestrian:

77-85 (.475)
0 division titles
7 losing seasons, 3 winning seasons
2 playoff appearances
1 playoff win

This isn't hate, this is factual. This is not a good look. If he was another coach with this 10 season resume... we'd say that he was just one of those defensive minded Head coaches that eventually got fired a la Rex Ryan, Mike Zimmer, etc. If you're resume is like this without Brady, people are just going to naturally attribute your success to him.

As where Reid without mahomes

(.600)
4 NFC title games
1 super bowl
A bunch of division titles and playoff appearances

With McNabb and Smith and Vick as QBs. None of them are hall of famers. He revitalized Vick's career.

No one is saying Belichick has to win 5 rings without Brady. But it's not a good look for his GOAT case that he literally struggled to even make the playoffs without him, while we've seen several coaches make deep playoff runs with mid QBs (Rex Ryan, 90s Bill Cowher, Jim Harbaugh in 2011).

This is a perfect reply, although BBs record is 80-90

 

[amfootball]

Andy's overall coaching resume is impressive. Really no blemishes. But he had a lot of chokes in big games and terrible clock management too. That being said, he has Mahomes and if he was to win another 2 rings, I think it is a fair discussion.