Reiss on Wolf’s draft philosophy

[upstater1]

Two points here: (1) Despite being drafted a year earlier, Mason is nearly a year younger than Thuney. (2) Mason was the most athletic lineman they had.

Great run blocker, was never really good at pass blocking. I take the pass protection over run blocking any day. I understand that age might've come into their deliberations, but Thuney obviously was relatively young for the position as well. He may have already surpassed his KC contract.

 

[Rob0729]

YAC for a receiver is pretty important, but not nearly as much as whether he can block. I mean that is why the Patriots were a WR factory for the last 25 years.

And I never really got why Belichick rarely gave out contracts until the player was hitting free agency. It really seems counter productive. I mean yeah, sure you get them as a bargain on the last year of their rookie deal. But you end up paying more to keep them or letting them walk in free agency because their value isn't worthy of what they will make now that they are no longer under contract.

And then you do stupid things like franchising an offensive guard in a year you know you aren't going anywhere only to let him walk for nothing the following year.

 

[signbabybrady]

YAC for a receiver is pretty important, but not nearly as much as whether he can block. I mean that is why the Patriots were a WR factory for the last 25 years.

And I never really got why Belichick rarely gave out contracts until the player was hitting free agency. It really seems counter productive. I mean yeah, sure you get them as a bargain on the last year of their rookie deal. But you end up paying more to keep them or letting them walk in free agency because their value isn't worthy of what they will make now that they are no longer under contract.

And then you do stupid things like franchising an offensive guard in a year you know you aren't going anywhere only to let him walk for nothing the following year.

Brady got several contracts early. Gronk and Hernandez each got one early. I think Seymour did too. I even think Moss got a new deal after 07. Just to name a few off the top of my head. When the players are good enough and willing to do it it's great.

 

[Rob0729]

Brady got several contracts early. Gronk and Hernandez each got one early. I think Seymour did too. I even think Moss got a new deal after 07. Just to name a few off the top of my head. When the players are good enough and willing to do it it's great.

I said rarely. For every one of those people, you can probably count like 20 who didn't. Hernandez and Seymour haven't been on this team in over a decade now. Actually 15 years for Seymour. In fact, you named five guys and not one of them are even in the NFL anymore.

And ask Wilfork or Thuney or Edelman or McCourty if they will get deals early before they are free agents. All of them were worth keeping around and none of them got deals before they became free agents. All ended up staying though. Several on top of the market deals or franchised.

 

[Real fan 02]

If he’s right I love it. No quick fix, play young players, be proactive in re-signing your players you want to keep. This is exactly the approach I want to see them follow.

It can only go up from here. 32nd is 32nd ranked offensively. To get to 15th offensively would be an immense achievement. I'd love to to win and have guys developing together. Would be great!

 

[venecol]

I'm not sure what anyone's heard. But the unusual process was in 2019 with Harry. Although Harry was considered a 1st rounder by the mock draft consensus, it seems Belichick went his own way instead of with the scouts.

Here's the consensus big board from 2019. Harry is ahead of AJ Brown according to most of the amateur scouts: 2019 Consensus Big Board | NFL Mock Draft Database

Otherwise, you can see BPA in the Gonzalez and Keion White picks.

I'm not sure about Mapu, but I know it's been reported they didn't think Mapu was rated a 3rd rounder, but their board at the time didn't show any 3rd rounders. They wanted out of the 3rd round and found no takers.

If you mean Cole Strange, I think it's the same story. They were waiting for a tackle at 21, and 6 tackles got taken before them, including Penning who was considered an early 2nd rder. They were best off trading up for a tackle even if that meant reaching for Penning, but they were caught with their pants down, in a sense. The trade down from 21 was just a recognition that the values were 2nd rders. Kind of like this year (scouts believe the 1st round grades end at pick 14). They actually tried to trade down at the Cole Strange pick one more time but found no takers. Safe to say they considered him a mid 2nd round value.

Did you learn all this from one of your immediate family members? Lol

 

[venecol]

Where does this leave Groh? Curious where's the line that splits their duties.

Director of scouting.

 

[Ivan]

This year you’re gonna have almost the entire draft to play with. It’s like Christmas baby!!

Yep, but I’m firmly in the take the QB at 3 camp. This morning I decided to look at Malik Nabers footage and actually came away feeling much better about Daniel’s arm strength. I had heard a number of analysts calling it “ average” in the last week or two, but came away from it impressed with watching him put it into tight windows with pace, which he has to be able to do at the next level. I’m still going to look at McCarthy at the combine next week, but as it stands it will take a lot to get me to move off of the QB pick.

One of the things that has pissed me off over these last few weeks has been the trade scenarios that keep being floated. The 49ers gave up 3 first rounders to go from 12-3!for the Dolphins pick, and these ****heads think the Patriots should be happy to get an extra first and second to move down to teams like the Vikings, or to trade for Justin Fields, which is the worst idea out there. Why give up anything for a failed QB who is going to be demanding over 40 million a season a year from now, when you could be doing your offensive rebuild with a QB on a 5 year rookie deal? That makes absolutely no sense, unless you are in the “ go all out to try and win Bob a Lombardi in the next year” camp, which I’m completely out on.

At this point I’m ready to start looking at the second half of the first round, and 2nd and 3rd rounds. Because I really believe they can come out of this with their starting QB if the future, a starting OT, and a major contributor at WR for the next few seasons at a minimum.

 

[upstater1]

YAC for a receiver is pretty important, but not nearly as much as whether he can block. I mean that is why the Patriots were a WR factory for the last 25 years.

And I never really got why Belichick rarely gave out contracts until the player was hitting free agency. It really seems counter productive. I mean yeah, sure you get them as a bargain on the last year of their rookie deal. But you end up paying more to keep them or letting them walk in free agency because their value isn't worthy of what they will make now that they are no longer under contract.

And then you do stupid things like franchising an offensive guard in a year you know you aren't going anywhere only to let him walk for nothing the following year.

The whole attitude to the roster was incentive based. Players play harder when they're playing for the money. That pretty much explains it. It also explains going 90% to the salary cap and using that last 10% for impossible to earn incentives, which the team ends up using as bonuses for outperfromers.

As for being proactive in signing players, the method never burned us from 2012-2018. The guys we lost flopped: Trey Flowers, Jamie Collins, JC Jackson, Van Noy, Roberts -- except for Thuney. The guys we signed worked out: Hightower, White, Wise, Gronk, Harmon, Mason, Bentley. Whatever decisions were made, they seem to be the right ones except for Thuney.

 

[upstater1]

Brady got several contracts early. Gronk and Hernandez each got one early. I think Seymour did too. I even think Moss got a new deal after 07. Just to name a few off the top of my head. When the players are good enough and willing to do it it's great.

A lot of people did. One of the crazy things about the story that keeps getting repeated about no resigns in the last 10 years is that for half that time (previous 4-5 yrs), players are still on their first contracts. You should only be measuring the last 10 years in which they are eligible. And secondly, the first part of the last 10 years was the worst drafting period they ever had, they still re-signed Bentley, Wise and Mason.

 

[DW Toys]

I'm not sure what anyone's heard. But the unusual process was in 2019 with Harry. Although Harry was considered a 1st rounder by the mock draft consensus, it seems Belichick went his own way instead of with the scouts.

Here's the consensus big board from 2019. Harry is ahead of AJ Brown according to most of the amateur scouts: 2019 Consensus Big Board | NFL Mock Draft Database

Otherwise, you can see BPA in the Gonzalez and Keion White picks.

I'm not sure about Mapu, but I know it's been reported they didn't think Mapu was rated a 3rd rounder, but their board at the time didn't show any 3rd rounders. They wanted out of the 3rd round and found no takers.

If you mean Cole Strange, I think it's the same story. They were waiting for a tackle at 21, and 6 tackles got taken before them, including Penning who was considered an early 2nd rder. They were best off trading up for a tackle even if that meant reaching for Penning, but they were caught with their pants down, in a sense. The trade down from 21 was just a recognition that the values were 2nd rders. Kind of like this year (scouts believe the 1st round grades end at pick 14). They actually tried to trade down at the Cole Strange pick one more time but found no takers. Safe to say they considered him a mid 2nd round value.

Great post Cousin. Informative.
DW Toys

 

[venecol]

I don't see anything radically different from Wolf's approach at all other than playing young players. BPA was the standard here for years anyway.

The players obviously developed; development was their strong suit.

"Jennings ended up being there at the 52nd pick -- in part because the Patriots had traded with Green Bay to move up to No. 36 to select underachieving Florida receiver Chad Jackson instead -- and he played seven productive seasons for the Packers and was a key part of the 2010 Super Bowl championship team."

I think Jennings @52 vs Chad Jackson @36 is radically different.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

What are Wolf’s mistakes you are referring to?

I am not referring to any of Wolf's mistakes. But it would have been really easy for Reiss to ask in the interviews about success like Jennings PLUS an example of a mistake. I do know for sure that Wolf makes drafting mistakes. It would be nice to know tendencies, approach, drafting philosophy, etc.

 

[venecol]

I am not referring to any of Wolf's mistakes. But it would have been really easy for Reiss to ask in the interviews about success like Jennings PLUS an example of a mistake. I do know for sure that Wolf makes drafting mistakes. It would be nice to know tendencies, approach, drafting philosophy, etc.

From the article, there's mention that Ron Wolf taught them to own their mistakes and to quickly move on to fix them. Wish we would've done that w/ the Harry pick. So anyway, if that's part of his philosophy, it's a good thing.

 

[upstater1]

I am not referring to any of Wolf's mistakes. But it would have been really easy for Reiss to ask in the interviews about success like Jennings PLUS an example of a mistake. I do know for sure that Wolf makes drafting mistakes. It would be nice to know tendencies, approach, drafting philosophy, etc.

Reiss mentioned mistakes without specifiying. He wrote that when Wolf was in GB, they learned to move on quickly from mistakes by picking a player at that position immediately.

I'm not sure what this means exactly since they said they don't fill needs but only BPA.

 

[DW Toys]

There will be a lot of posters that will love the puff pieces because that makes them feel that the team is doing better. Very difficult to be more than a middling, edge of the playoffs team. The team and media "working together" is not going to get us to the Conference Championship game.

Cousin,
Great Sunday breakfast. Wish you could join me. Real Finish pancake (kind of a custard batter baked into a square and cut to portions. Almost like a crème brulée,) which is delicious with raspberry syrup, fried potatoes lightly salted, thick smoked linked sausage, hot dark chocolate and a wedge of coffee cake for desert and strawberries.

Here is the problem as I see it. Wolf has been with the Pats since 2019 and Groh has been around since 2011. These two were part of some terrible Drafts. Why are they now put on a pedestal as the saviors of the Pats? Yes, BB had the final say but he was the final arbitrator not the selection committee. I think he let Wolf and Groh (thanks Dad!) et.al for all intensive purposes, set the Draft board.
I see more of the same and we continue to get ourselves in trouble. Therefor , the more picks you can get in the Draft, you are more liable to hit on one or two. If these two pick a QB form the holy three that rots, they are going to cost "I have got a good feeling about him" Mayo his job.

I promise you, there are a few posters here on the Patriots Forum that will do a better job with the Draft board and selections.

Did you know 31% of every NFL Team roster upon average through the years is made up of UDFA, trades or waiver wire pick ups? In this CAP era they have to be hired. These are playeres that the Eliot Wolfs and Matt Grohs of the world misfired on. So today with all of the available media including films and interviews, can the very inteligent NFL Fan (you all) make a pick in the Draft that exceeds what the "so called" very expensive personnel exectutive would make? Yep!

We are being "gas lighted" by the same two guys that were and have already been there.
DW Toys

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Cousin,
Great Sunday breakfast. Wish you could join me. Real Finish pancake (kind of a custard batter baked into a square and cut to portions. Almost like a crème brulée,) which is delicious with raspberry syrup, fried potatoes lightly salted, thick smoked linked sausage, hot dark chocolate and a wedge of coffee cake for desert and strawberries.

Here is the problem as I see it. Wolf has been with the Pats since 2019 and Groh has been around since 2011. These two were part of some terrible Drafts. Why are they now put on a pedestal as the saviors of the Pats? Yes, BB had the final say but he was the final arbitrator not the selection committee. I think he let Wolf and Groh (thanks Dad!) et.al for all intensive purposes, set the Draft board.
I see more of the same and we continue to get ourselves in trouble. Therefor , the more picks you can get in the Draft, you are more liable to hit on one or two. If these two pick a QB form the holy three that rots, they are going to cost "I have got a good feeling about him" Mayo his job.

I promise you, there are a few posters here on the Patriots Forum that will do a better job with the Draft board and selections.

Did you know 31% of every NFL Team roster upon average through the years is made up of UDFA, trades or waiver wire pick ups? In this CAP era they have to be hired. These are playeres that the Eliot Wolfs and Matt Grohs of the world misfired on. So today with all of the available media including films and interviews, can the very inteligent NFL Fan (you all) make a pick in the Draft that exceeds what the "so called" very expensive personnel exectutive would make? Yep!

We are being "gas lighted" by the same two guys that were and have already been there.
DW Toys

I share the same concern, cousin. It was all BB's fault is a ridiculous claim. BB didn't fly around evaluating players. So what we are told, to cover for these logical criticisms, is that the draft evaluation grading system is changing now that BB is gone.

Do you see how convenient that is? The one person that ruined everything is gone, the grading system that was out of date has been updated, and the same people who gave us the last 4 years of terrible draft evaluations (I think the 2023 draft will turn out to be very good) are still there but they really were amazing all along. It was the grading system that was bad. No worries!! Everything is fixed.

By the way there is even better news. The reason we are last is player cash spending was due to BB too, and he is gone. So now we are going to burn cash because the big bad wolf is gone. Isn't that great??

Cousin, you and I, are very very lucky. Fire BB and change the draft grading system, and all the problems are fixed. All of the same people that have always been here were held back and now the wolves (Wolf anyway) are being released. We are so damn lucky.

 

[Triumph]

Kraft News Network working overtime.

 

[Jim Beankie]

We'll get to see on Thornton, but I was high on Strong from his college tape, and was fairly disappointed to see him have absolutely no wiggle when he ran, and he ran high and went down easy. I caught him in Cleveland. I think of him as a failed pick.

On Thornton, I don't think we have the QB to take advantage of him.

Thorton's been open deep so many times, it's sad. I think they've only been able to get 2 real bombs to him, and the number of attempts have been really low due to the fact that the line just hasn't been able to get the QB comfortable enough for a throw at 2.5-3sec post snap. One was an underthrow from Mac that ended up being a pseudo contested drop and another was a perfect throw from Zap in the pouring rain that TT dropped. I'm really hoping TT gets at least one next year.



Backbreaking

 

[Uptown]

Andrew Brandt, who was a vice president with the Packers from 1999 to 2008 when Wolf was in the initial years of his full-time career as a scout, starts with a story that further solidified his belief in Wolf's acumen.

"I'm a big fan of Eliot. Every now and then I'd walk by his office and ask him what he was looking at, and one time [in 2006] I remember he said, 'I want to show you someone. We're going to take this kid in the second round tomorrow -- Greg Jennings, a receiver from Western Michigan.' And I was like, 'Really? We're going to take a kid from Western Michigan in the second round?' And Eliot just kept saying he hoped he wouldn't go before then," Brandt relayed.

Then he's showing me the tape and pointing out the body control, the hands, the strength. And he felt there was no question it would transfer to the [NFL]."

"I believed before, during and after [my tenure] in the Packer Way, which in simplest terms is 'no quick fixes, slow and steady, trust your scouting, trust your board and almost mandate that your coaches play young players,'" Brandt said. "So it's draft and develop, and then speaking to my end [as a negotiator], once you identify those core players, get them under extensions way before free agency."

NFL Media draft analyst Daniel Jeremiah said on a conference call last week that the Patriots have previously been "one of the more niche drafting teams in the league where they would catch you off guard a little bit because they were so obsessed with fit and might take a guy two or three rounds before anybody else."

Jeremiah expects that to change in 2024 with Wolf taking a leading role, adding that Wolf came up through a Green Bay system that values versatile offensive linemen and receivers with dynamic yards-after-the-catch ability and added value as kick returners.

Extending your young players before they reach FA would be a nice change atleast

That last paragraph is a bit funny. “Versatile OL & WR’s with YAC/ST ability is essentially what NE has always been known for during the BB/TB era (outside of winning).