RFA Emmanuel Sanders visits Pats 3/16; signs offer sheet 4/10, sheet matched 4/14

[Ivan]

It's either unique, or it's arguable.

It must be "unique" because as B2M has made clear, Belichick is a "fool." It is pretty impressive that a "fool" can also be the greatest. It's definitely "unique."

 

[Deus Irae]

It's incredible how big "our" heads have gotten (some posters at least). It is our crown to lose every year. All these other teams led by dunce coaching staffs and scrub QBs can only hope to ever win it all if we clumsily give away what is rightly ours.

Infreaking credible. The only thing further away from that than reality, is the one game a time philosophy the team was built on.

Your post would make more sense if it weren't for the fact that the Patriots have been the SB favorites for many of the post-2004 seasons. Then again, your post would make more sense if you would act as if you grasp the notion of the best teams needing to win when they're on top. If you need an explanation of this, perhaps you should talk with some Atlanta Braves fans, and they can explain it to you.

 

[RayClay]

Your post would make more sense if it weren't for the fact that the Patriots have been the SB favorites for many of the post-2004 seasons. Then again, your post would make more sense if you would act as if you grasp the notion of the best teams needing to win when they're on top.

The Patriots defense has had to completely rebuild, yet they've stayed competitive yearly. Things are seldom that simple, that the "favorite" just waltzes in, especially when the weapon they build their offense around is injured twice in recent years.

Might be a good exercise to count up how many non favorites end up winning the Super Bowl through history.

I'm all for trying to build the type of team that has proven successful in the past in playing to Brady's strengths.

Also, I struggle to look back and find the high dollar free agents who have put us over the top in the past. Seems to me, the few big names that have cost us multiple draft picks or large multi-year salaries have been less successful than players that were supposedly over the hill, role players, or backups on other teams without much of a record.

 

[Ring 6]

Put Brady on the Redskins over the past 10 years, and take him off the Patriots, and the Redskins are competing for Lombardis while the Patriots are looking for an RGIII.

The past 8 years has clearly been a waste, from the perspective of what could have been. I'd think acknowledging that would be completely noncontroversial.

No controversy at all, its idiotic.
You yourself disagreed with what you are saying now just weeks ago until your feelings were hurt that BB didn't donate cap money to the Wes Welker appreciation fund.
Your posts since have been even more jaded and delusional than ever.

 

[Gumby]

It's incredible how poorly some people understand the salary cap.

The Patriots this year signed three young, premier free agents -- Talib, Amendola and Vollmer. They spent pretty good money on each. In the last few years they've extended Gronk, Hernandez, Mayo, Wilfork, Mankins, Gostkowski, and Slater, all to premium contracts. They re-signed their best player this winter, adding three years to Brady's deal.

Teams like Miami that do what you propose, signing those "2-3 impact guys" that will "put them over the top," could only do so after they let their own impact players walk -- in Miami's case, they let go of their their two top offensive players, Jake Long and Reggie Bush, and three of their best defensive players in Sean Smith, Karlos Dansby and Kevin Burnett.

If you want the Patriots to chase players like Mike Wallace or, I don't know, Cliff Avril, you have to be prepared for what that means -- losing players like Vollmer or Talib. Good teams cannot retain all of their own good players and then also add premium free agents. It's simply not possible mathematically. In the best case scenario, a team keeps its own key players and then has to scrape and claw to fill in the gaps with the draft and street free agents.

The Patriots do a great job of keeping all their best young players. It's also good for the clubhouse, where guys see that they will be rewarded before some outsider if they do things right.

Anyway, it's just amazing to me that people don't realize that under the cap, you can't have your cake and eat it, too. You can either have Mike Wallace and lose Vollmer and four other guys, or you can keep all the good players you spent years developing, players you know can keep this team in contention, and then try to spend what little capital's left making (sometimes incremental) improvements. Upgrading the kickoff return from McCourty to Leon Washington for a million bucks is a great example of the kind of move winning teams need to make. Getting Adrian Wilson to cover tight ends instead of Brandon Spikes is another obvious improvement -- he cost one-fifth what Ed Reed cost, is two years younger and was in the Pro Bowl just two years ago. Tommy Kelly on your pass rush instead of Kyle Love -- you preferred Desmond Bryant for $34 million or whatever? Donald Jones as your fifth wideout instead of Deion Branch is probably a net plus. How many teams have a backup swing tackle as good as Will Svitek, a guy who started at left tackle on a playoff team?

All of these things are smart, economical moves. There's probably one or two more moves coming, too -- an Abraham or a Freeney. They're going to spend right to the edge of the cap, and what they don't spend will go to extensions. Exactly what else would you have them do?

Great post. Only one small point you forgot:

When you "signing those "2-3 impact guys" that will "put them over the top,"" that also means your depth behind those 2-3 guys is UDFAs or 5-7 rnd picks who you can fit under the tight-cap you are left with. What happens when one or 2 of those 2-3 impact guys gets hurt and goes on IR?? Of course if you can count on the SF 49ers 2012-health-plan; you dont need to worry about that.

 

[Ivan]

You know who is a "great coach?" John Harbaugh.

You know who is a "fool?" Jim Harbaugh.

Unless of course Kaepernick completes that last pass, in which case John Harbaugh is the "fool" and Jim Harbaugh is the "great coach."

 

[Ivan]

What has also been really telling is that those shrieking about the lack of "big moves" have steadfastly refused to say who they should have brought in, at what cost, and who they would have sacrificed to make the moves. instead they just keep repeating cliches like "Wal-Mart shopping" and no "impact players" over and over and over.

 

[bishbash]

What has also been really telling is that those shrieking about the lack of "big moves" have steadfastly refused to say who they should have brought in, at what cost, and who they would have sacrificed to make the moves. instead they just keep repeating cliches like "Wal-Mart shopping" and no "impact players" over and over and over.

Can't help but be reminded of big move impact players like Haynesworth and Ochocinco and the "impact" they had as well as the draft choices they cost.

 

[Ring 6]

Can't help but be reminded of big move impact players like Haynesworth and Ochocinco and the "impact" they had as well as the draft choices they cost.

But they were only 'big moves' to fans who misunderstood them.
Every move has risk. It is kind of disingenuous to look at a very risky move or moves and pretend they were stupid because the risk involved proved true.
Washington was stupid to pay Haynesworth what they did. The Patriots took a reasonable risk that was inexpensive and it didn't work out.
85's play in Cincy was well worth what the Patriots invested in him, and the risk was that outside of that system he would be exposed. The risk was correct, but it is silly to say that anything in 85s career would have been a strong indication that he was that football dumb and his skills had declined so rapidly. The risk was that he was potentially not a good team player. That was not the case here, but the reasons he failed? You would be lying if you said there was a good amount of evidence to predict that.

Your expectations, ignorant of the teams, are what make the moves seem worse than they were.

 

[Ring 6]

What has also been really telling is that those shrieking about the lack of "big moves" have steadfastly refused to say who they should have brought in, at what cost, and who they would have sacrificed to make the moves. instead they just keep repeating cliches like "Wal-Mart shopping" and no "impact players" over and over and over.

Typically those comments are about players such as Wallace, and include 'I wouldn't pay what he got, but why can't we get a top guy'.

 

[RayClay]

But they were only 'big moves' to fans who misunderstood them.
Every move has risk. It is kind of disingenuous to look at a very risky move or moves and pretend they were stupid because the risk involved proved true.
Washington was stupid to pay Haynesworth what they did. The Patriots took a reasonable risk that was inexpensive and it didn't work out.
85's play in Cincy was well worth what the Patriots invested in him, and the risk was that outside of that system he would be exposed. The risk was correct, but it is silly to say that anything in 85s career would have been a strong indication that he was that football dumb and his skills had declined so rapidly. The risk was that he was potentially not a good team player. That was not the case here, but the reasons he failed? You would be lying if you said there was a good amount of evidence to predict that.

Your expectations, ignorant of the teams, are what make the moves seem worse than they were.

I agree on Haynesworth just based on his immense physical power. I have to disagree on Ocho. There was evidence he was a not so smart narcissist and I think Belichick liked him and exercised poor judgment.

 

[Brady2Moss]

It's either unique, or it's arguable.

Really? How many franchises in the history of this game arguably had the greatest coach and qb working together at the same time? Not many. You are splitting hairs to downplay the situation with Belichick and Brady to push your agenda.

This thread is comedic gold, B2M just called Belichick the greatest coach in the league and a fool in the same frigging breath. It simply doesn't get any dumber than that.

Bill Belichick has managed to keep this team on top for over a decade and has completely rebuilt the entire roster around Brady while never dropping out of contention, and that is a feat. He now has them poised to compete for a Championship for the rest of Brady's career, and while you can never count on winning championships their odds going forward are as good as any team in the league. The spoiled rotten little sh.ts who can't stop whining about not having won it all recently really should take a different approach to football fandom. I would recommend to all of them that in the future they go out and buy the hats and jerseys of the 2 teams in the Super bow each year and throw out the loser's and wear the winners for the next year while shrieking incessantly, "we won, we won, yoooohoooooooooo," because that is clearly the only way they will ever be satisfied.

Belichick takes the same approach that Walsh and Parcells did, by building a team each season that can win their division and make a run for the Lombardi when the play-offs come, and no-one has done that better than he has. And because he has had so much success doing this patriot fans feel each season ending loss acutely, because it almost always comes in the biggest games with the most on the line. Winning it all takes a great team, good health when it matters, a series of really goods play-off performances, and luck, and it cannot be won without all of these coming together, and nothing demonstrated this better than the play-off run by this years Ravens team. And the complete lack of appreciation of the job Belichick is doing year in year out year after year may well be the greatest demonstration of fan ignorance that i have ever witnessed. Everyone wants them to win it all every year that's a given, and losing sucks, but while criticism of certain decisions and moves is always fine because Belichick is not GOD, the whiney crybaby bullsh.t that many in this fanbase demonstrate every offseason is nothing short of unbelievable. What a bunch of idiots.

You are a very confused man, are you still suffering from PTSD after the loss of Welker? Belichick the coach is not the same as Belichick the GM. He can be the greatest coach in the world and also be a foolish GM. If you cannot see that distinction that's fine I wouldn't expect you to since most points fly right over your head. It's hilarious how you have taken your own misunderstanding of the statement and used it to mock me in multiple posts in this thread, it only makes you appear stupider than you are which is an enormous accomplishment.

It is rich that you are act like the only type of fan that can exist is one that accepts losing the same way every year due to mistakes by Belichick the GM

 

[Brady2Moss]

Great post. Only one small point you forgot:

When you "signing those "2-3 impact guys" that will "put them over the top,"" that also means your depth behind those 2-3 guys is UDFAs or 5-7 rnd picks who you can fit under the tight-cap you are left with. What happens when one or 2 of those 2-3 impact guys gets hurt and goes on IR?? Of course if you can count on the SF 49ers 2012-health-plan; you dont need to worry about that.

What happens when the 6-7 JAGs you sign for the same price as 2 impact guys are all hurt, cut, or suck?

Oh then your in the same situation anyway so you can't discredit the method of getting impact guys based off health, when the people that fill the roles are old and more likely to get injured anway.

 

[bishbash]

But they were only 'big moves' to fans who misunderstood them.

Didn't have my sarcasm meter set high enough, Andy. I was addressing those fans in what I wrote. (Not that BB made unwise choices.) They were reasonably low risk deals that didn't pan out as hoped, but their big names somehow smoothed the shreakers that now call for "big names".

 

[Brady2Moss]

Didn't have my sarcasm meter set high enough, Andy. I was addressing those fans in what I wrote. (Not that BB made unwise choices.) They were reasonably low risk deals that didn't pan out as hoped, but their big names somehow smoothed the shreakers that now call for "big names".

Those fans are the same ones that see every signing made by the Patriot as a big move, just like Tommy Kelly will give us a beast interior line and Lloyd was supposed to make us unstoppable .

 

[Ivan]

Typically those comments are about players such as Wallace, and include 'I wouldn't pay what he got, but why can't we get a top guy'.

Which is exactly my problem with it. Like everyone else I wanted them to make moves for impact players this offseason, especially after Brady re-did his deal and gave them all that cap relief, however the players and deals have to be there to get them done, and from what I can tell there really weren't the impact players available to go after without grossly overspending for somewhat questionable players like Harvin and Wallace. Unlike the fans Belichick has a really big picture to look at and what he is playing is many levels of chess while we are playing checkers. His understanding of the team, the players, and how deals have to be made to fit into the big picture is so far beyond the understanding of even the most intelligent fans that it really makes our commentary pretty ludicrous. Not that we don't have the right as fans to speak out about what we do and don't like, but pretending that equals real knowledge of the situation is foohardy.

The Patriots had many free agents this offseason, and there many that most fans didn't want to see go, and even with their cap room there would have had to have been sacrifices had they gone out and gotten Cruz, or Harvin, or Wallace etc.. And while i can't say i agree with all the moves (e.g.. welker and Arrington) i will say that in looking at the bigger picture and the work they have done and current situation that imo it has been a good and productive offseason, and although there is still work to be done i think they will even better next year than they were the last 2, and that means they are continuing to make progress when many of their competitors in the AFc are going to other direction. That's no guarantee of anything, but it is exactly what fans should be looking for from their franchises. No matter how much we all want more Lombardi's before this era ends all we can ask for is that they continue to put themselves in a position to win it all and hope for the best, because even having a completely dominant team, such as in 2007, is no guarantee that they will hoist the Lombardi. I honestly don't know what else we can ask from this franchise and Belichick and Brady than all they have given us. they have done their best throughout this era to be the best, and like it or not things don't always break the way you want no matter how much you do to ensure that you will end up the champion.

Last point-the "Wal-Mart" shopping cliches are stupid, the truth is that they have actually signed a number of very good players this offseason, and they have improved their team. That they got good deals with most of them makes them smart and gives them room to add more. They are really down to a very few real needs and should be able to address them through the draft and the remainder of the offseason. It is mid April, they still have over 4 months to finish their roster, and the ammunition to get it done with, which imo is an admirable position to be in, especially with so many of their competitors having more needs and less to work with.

 

[moosekill]

Put Brady on the Redskins over the past 10 years, and take him off the Patriots, and the Redskins are competing for Lombardis while the Patriots are looking for an RGIII.

The past 8 years has clearly been a waste, from the perspective of what could have been. I'd think acknowledging that would be completely noncontroversial.

You are stating this as fact and I disagree. Does Brady make the Pats or do the Pats make Brady. The one time Brady was out for the season, with a qb who hadn't played since high school, and hasn't lit the world on fire with the other teams he played for, the Patriots won 11 games. What would they have done with a good QB, who knows, you surely don't.

 

[Don Kipines]

I was reading your post until you fell into the same trap of well Miami did what was proposed, we aren't the Dolphins the situation is totally different.

The salary cap has its limitations but you also should understand that we have the best QB in the league for a reasonable cap hit. It allows you to do more things, which we didn't do this offseason. More could have been done, but instead we get the same kind of JAG FAs ,which is fine but I do not want to hear about how the last 8 years haven't been a failure given this team's unique position in history.

Dude, what is the matter with you? How can you possibly call guys like Amendola, Talib and especially Vollmer JAGs? THESE ARE NOT JAGS! They're top-of-the-market, healthy, in-their-prime free agents that the team paid premium market prices for. Vollmer might be the best right tackle in the NFL. And by the way, Jerod Mayo would have been in this FA class, too, and he's not leaving only because we gave him $50 million a couple of years ago. Is Mayo a JAG?

That's four young, Pro-Bowl caliber players they paid full market prices for just in this free agent season.

And another thing -- in what universe is someone like Leon Washington a JAG? We badly needed a kick returner; we got the #2 kick returner in the league. Is the problem that we didn't get the #1 kick returner? You don't think your standards are a teeny bit high?

I'm really curious to hear what your plan would have been. Where are these magical impact players you would have signed? Are we talking about Osi Umeniyora? Brent Grimes? Ed Reed? Percy Harvin? Who's on your list? We'd all love to hear the plan. Seriously, sit down with a piece of paper and try to work out a plan that adds not just one but "2-3" of those impact guys you're talking about, and see if that plan doesn't end with Marcus Cannon or Will Svitek manning right tackle and Kyle Arrington starting at corner.

Seriously -- try it out! Give it your best shot!

 

[RayClay]

Really? How many franchises in the history of this game arguably had the greatest coach and qb working together at the same time? Not many. You are splitting hairs to downplay the situation with Belichick and Brady to push your agenda.



You are a very confused man, are you still suffering from PTSD after the loss of Welker? Belichick the coach is not the same as Belichick the GM. He can be the greatest coach in the world and also be a foolish GM. If you cannot see that distinction that's fine I wouldn't expect you to since most points fly right over your head. It's hilarious how you have taken your own misunderstanding of the statement and used it to mock me in multiple posts in this thread, it only makes you appear stupider than you are which is an enormous accomplishment.

It is rich that you are act like the only type of fan that can exist is one that accepts losing the same way every year due to mistakes by Belichick the GM

Something can't be unique and arguable. Definitions.

So now you're saying that Belichick, who drafted the quarterback and built the championship teams doesn't know what he's doing?

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

they have until tomorrow afternoon right?