RFA Emmanuel Sanders visits Pats 3/16; signs offer sheet 4/10, sheet matched 4/14

[Rob0729]

This whole "the last 8 years has been wasted because of poor management decisions" thing is nothing more than negative idiots with nothing to back up their arguments other than the Pats haven't won a Super Bowl in 8 years. I love captain stone's "brilliant" argument that the fact the Pats were within a minute or two of winning two Super Bowls means nothing because they didn't win.

Sorry, the Pats were arguably the most talented team in the league in 2007 and it didn't get them to win a Super Bowl. In fact, you look at the teams who have won Super Bowls in recent years and they have all had significant weaknesses and talent voids:

Baltimore had an aged defense that was all banged up, a peiss poor o-line, mediocre WRs, and average QB. They just pulled it all together at the right time, but you could argue they were one of the least talented teams in the playoffs last year.

The year before, the Giants had issues all over the place other than d-line, WR, and QB. They got hot at the right time and won.

In 2010, the Packers had no running game, and an average at best o-line.

In 2009, the Saints had a mediocre defense that was only good in one area - tunrovers (just like the Pats of the last few years).

In 2008, the Steelers had a below average offense with absolutely no running game.

In 2007, the Giants had no secondary, mixed LB corp, and a mediocre offense.

In 2006, the Colts had a historically bad defense.

People want these teams where they are stacked at every position. Ain't happening anymore in today's NFL. In today's NFL, winning Super Bowls is all about getting into the playoffs and getting hot and healthy during the playoffs. The most talented team in the league hasn't actually won a Super Bowl since the Pats won in the 2004 season.

The Pats have been good enough to get within one minute of winning two Super Bowls. If Gronk wasn't injured in the playoffs the last two years, the Pats might have won the last two Super Bowls. If Brady didn't get injured in 2008, the Pats might have won the Super Bowl that season (since the team was still good enough to get 11 wins without Brady). I would say if it wasn't for injuries to key players, the Pats could have up to four Super Bowl wins in the last 4 years. Maybe they wouldn't, but they certainly would have had one or two.

 

[Deus Irae]

The Patriots defense has had to completely rebuild, yet they've stayed competitive yearly. Things are seldom that simple, that the "favorite" just waltzes in, especially when the weapon they build their offense around is injured twice in recent years.

Might be a good exercise to count up how many non favorites end up winning the Super Bowl through history.

I'm all for trying to build the type of team that has proven successful in the past in playing to Brady's strengths.

Also, I struggle to look back and find the high dollar free agents who have put us over the top in the past. Seems to me, the few big names that have cost us multiple draft picks or large multi-year salaries have been less successful than players that were supposedly over the hill, role players, or backups on other teams without much of a record.

You don't expect a team to win every season, but to crack out the "Infreaking credible." was just silly. It has nothing to do with high dollar free agents specifically. It has to do with opportunities missed.

 

[Deus Irae]

You are stating this as fact and I disagree. Does Brady make the Pats or do the Pats make Brady. The one time Brady was out for the season, with a qb who hadn't played since high school, and hasn't lit the world on fire with the other teams he played for, the Patriots won 11 games. What would they have done with a good QB, who knows, you surely don't.

In 2008, the Patriots couldn't beat the main contending teams and they failed to make the playoffs, so using that year doesn't really help your point. As for you disagreeing in general, you're entitled to your opinion. History shows, however, that elite QBs are generally winning divisions and competing for titles.

 

[Rob0729]

You are stating this as fact and I disagree. Does Brady make the Pats or do the Pats make Brady. The one time Brady was out for the season, with a qb who hadn't played since high school, and hasn't lit the world on fire with the other teams he played for, the Patriots won 11 games. What would they have done with a good QB, who knows, you surely don't.

Yeah, 2008 disproves the whole Brady argument. I think if the Pats had Brady, they might have not only made the playoffs that year, but won the Super Bowl.

The Redskins would most likely not have been a consistent Super Bowl competitor over the last eight years because having Brady wouldn't have stopped Snyder from throwing stupid money at aged veterans past their prime, high profile under achievers, and JAG with the theory if you overpay a JAG they will play like a stud. Odds would be good that Snyder would have paid Brady $30 million a year and traded all his draft picks to get Santonio Holmes for him and destroyed the team.

 

[RayClay]

You don't expect a team to win every season, but to crack out the "Infreaking credible." was just silly. It has nothing to do with high dollar free agents specifically. It has to do with opportunities missed.

It fit the post I quoted. There are other great organizations among the 31. I'm not saying we make all the right moves, I stated today what a waste it was waiting all season for Oucho to show something.

Being a long time fan, I do believe that being competitive yearly is a better plan than putting all the chips on a one or two year "window".

I also believe the pats idea of fitting players to the system, and they've gone away from it at times, is better than throwing money at names and working to fit them.

Like my sig says.

 

[ALP]

In 2008, the Patriots couldn't beat the main contending teams and they failed to make the playoffs, so using that year doesn't really help your point. As for you disagreeing in general, you're entitled to your opinion. History shows, however, that elite QBs are generally winning divisions and competing for titles.

that 2008 team was exceptional, and most losses were while Matt was getting into things

the fact that an 11-5 team didnt make the playoffs was simply bad luck for that one season, if that team had made it to the playoffs, they could have easily won the SB

 

[Rob0729]

that 2008 team was exceptional, and most losses were while Matt was getting into things

the fact that an 11-5 team didnt make the playoffs was simply bad luck for that one season, if that team had made it to the playoffs, they could have easily won the SB

Cmon, the Pats are the only team in the last 25 years or so that didn't make the playoffs. That is proof that it happens all the time.

With Brady, they might have gone 19-0. But they went 11-5 with a backup quality QB. That is proof that the Pats have built a pretty good team around Brady at least part of the last eight years.

 

[Brady2Moss]

Dude, what is the matter with you? How can you possibly call guys like Amendola, Talib and especially Vollmer JAGs? THESE ARE NOT JAGS! They're top-of-the-market, healthy, in-their-prime free agents that the team paid premium market prices for. Vollmer might be the best right tackle in the NFL. And by the way, Jerod Mayo would have been in this FA class, too, and he's not leaving only because we gave him $50 million a couple of years ago. Is Mayo a JAG?

That's four young, Pro-Bowl caliber players they paid full market prices for just in this free agent season.

And another thing -- in what universe is someone like Leon Washington a JAG? We badly needed a kick returner; we got the #2 kick returner in the league. Is the problem that we didn't get the #1 kick returner? You don't think your standards are a teeny bit high?

I'm really curious to hear what your plan would have been. Where are these magical impact players you would have signed? Are we talking about Osi Umeniyora? Brent Grimes? Ed Reed? Percy Harvin? Who's on your list? We'd all love to hear the plan. Seriously, sit down with a piece of paper and try to work out a plan that adds not just one but "2-3" of those impact guys you're talking about, and see if that plan doesn't end with Marcus Cannon or Will Svitek manning right tackle and Kyle Arrington starting at corner.

Seriously -- try it out! Give it your best shot!

All are moves that were made to tread water the team is not any better than it was, it is actually worse since Amendola is a piece of glass and can't be relied upon like Welker. Yup lets throw Mayo into the equation when he was already locked up we had 25 million in cap space despite him being already signed so that is irrelevant. I did however laugh at the notion that Amendola, Talib, and Vollmer are "healthy" so thanks for that. I like Talib, Vollmer, and Amendola and hope they are healthy when they are they are all top notch players. That still doesn't make the team any better than it was last year sorry to break it to you.

Wilson, Kelly, etc. are JAGs and over the hill. Washington is a fine addition, but its sad when the only upgrade to the team is the kicking game . Maybe that should tell you something. You treaded water at most positions, overpaid Kyle Arrington, got worse at receiver, better in the return game. Great offseason when you are loaded with cash. It is not good enough to simply resign your own when your QB gives you 8 million dollars in cap space because he cares so much about winning.

I'm sure you will say that others teams like the Steelers and Packers just resign there own and are doing fine, but guess what they don't have QBs taking massive paycuts. In a few months Rodgers is going to destroy the Packers cap.

I've stated my plan in numerous threads, I am not going to keep doing it because it just gets ignored. They could have added numerous different players and been better off, but again we are left depending on old guys to find the fountain of youth.

Seriously give some objectivity a try the team is worse than it was last year despite 25 million dollars of cap space. Good day to you.

 

[Love The Drake]

I am going to drink the kool aid, Vollmer and Mankins should be healthy, Wendell will have a full training camp with the starters this should improve the o line.
Vareen was really looking dynamic a few games and should improve with added reps and a full healthy training camp and got to work on his strength because he is healthy.
Bolden should improve watching game film and getting more in depth plays designed to maximize his bruising running ability as a running back.
We have a real beast fullback in Fiametta.
Ballard will see the field limiting Gronks reps and making for 2 beastly tight ends in the end zone.
Donald Jones has a real chance to turn it around and prove he is a dynamic player he has all the athletic ability I'm confident our coaching staff will maximize his strengths and get the most out of him.
Edelman was coming out as a threat til he got injured he is planning to cash in after this season so I expect a very productive year.
Admendola will make us forget about Wes when he actually brings in the critical third down passes in big games.
Andre Holmes will surprise this year and have a very bright career we all been wanting that big fast receiver here he is.
If we land Sanders I predict he makes more clutch plays then Wallace for he will come in motivated with a chip on his shoulder and Pittsburgh drafts another Taylor Price clone with our pick.
The secondary has the leader they've been missing with Wilson Mccourty makes people think of a young Reed.
Talib solidifies himself as a top 3 cornerback.
Arrington plays like a young Winfield in his prime.
Dennard with a chip on his shoulder the size of a boulder puts up 9 ints and leads the league in pass break ups.
Donta Hightower reminds people of what a monster he is and leads the league in tackles for losses.
Mayo racks up 242 tackles and gets his first int and returns it 99 yds for a td
Bequette and Jones remind people of Strahan and Osi.
Wilfork and Kelly don't allow a 100 yd rusher all season.
Mallett is traded for more than anyone would think.
Patriots go 18 and 1 winning the superbowl.
The arc championship Arrington falls down leaving a wide open Welker and he drops the pass on third down forcing the broncs to punt and patriots throw the game winner in the closing seconds to Danny A
Peyton and Welker both make the Manning face.
Patriots face Seahawks in the superbowl Brady completes 34 of 35 passes first pass picked off by Sherman MICHEAL Jenkins catches 4 tds all over Sherman.
Patriots win 34 to 3.
Patriots trade Mallet for a first rounder next year which becomes number 1 pick.
Belichick opens his favorite game show deal or no deal and absolutely kills some poor team which makes the Ricky Williams trade look smart in compare.

 

[captain stone]

The problem with "If they had it to do over scenarios" is no one does, in football or in life.

Comparing realistically to any teams 2nd 3rd 4th round hall with the same picks, Gronkowski, Spikes and Hernandez is pretty damn good.

Golden Tate represented the almost supernatural convergence of need, talent, system proficiency
and best-player-available-regardless-of-position value. He was waiting for us on a silver platter,
yet Bill chose instead to do his buddy Urban a solid by over-drafting, by at least a full round,
someone who was not ranked by anybody as a top-100 talent, never mind a top-60 talent.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Golden Tate represented the almost supernatural convergence of need, talent, system proficiency
and best-player-available-regardless-of-position value. He was waiting for us on a silver platter,
yet Bill chose instead to do his buddy Urban a solid by over-drafting, by at least a full round,
someone who was not ranked by anybody as a top-100 talent, never mind a top-60 talent.

are you for real?

 

[RayClay]

Golden Tate represented the almost supernatural convergence of need, talent, system proficiency
and best-player-available-regardless-of-position value. He was waiting for us on a silver platter,
yet Bill chose instead to do his buddy Urban a solid by over-drafting, by at least a full round,
someone who was not ranked by anybody as a top-100 talent, never mind a top-60 talent.

What if he'd picked him instead of Gronkowski? With three second round picks, you could play the what if game forever.

I don't know how old you are captain, but i think you should focus all your efforts into eventually getting that front office job so you can run a draft custom tailored to one particular teams style so we can see how you'd do.

 

[Rob0729]

are you for real?

Unfortunately, he isn't. He has argued this multiple time. Apparently, he is Golden Tate's brother Bronzed.

Tate is a JAG. A far better JAG than Cunningham, but still a JAG. If the Pats took a WR in that spot, they would have been much better off taking Antonio Brown or Erick Decker. Personally, 20/20 hindsight they should have taken Sean Lee.

 

[Joker]

jeezus krist...sometimes I can't take all this whining and crying....let me ask the board, would you all prefer a return to the days of Bobby Grier???

 

[JackBauer]

Wow...whining about missing out on Golden Tate?? Now I've seen it all.

 

[Brady2Moss]

I am going to drink the kool aid, Vollmer and Mankins should be healthy, Wendell will have a full training camp with the starters this should improve the o line.
Vareen was really looking dynamic a few games and should improve with added reps and a full healthy training camp and got to work on his strength because he is healthy.
Bolden should improve watching game film and getting more in depth plays designed to maximize his bruising running ability as a running back.
We have a real beast fullback in Fiametta.
Ballard will see the field limiting Gronks reps and making for 2 beastly tight ends in the end zone.
Donald Jones has a real chance to turn it around and prove he is a dynamic player he has all the athletic ability I'm confident our coaching staff will maximize his strengths and get the most out of him.
Edelman was coming out as a threat til he got injured he is planning to cash in after this season so I expect a very productive year.
Admendola will make us forget about Wes when he actually brings in the critical third down passes in big games.
Andre Holmes will surprise this year and have a very bright career we all been wanting that big fast receiver here he is.
If we land Sanders I predict he makes more clutch plays then Wallace for he will come in motivated with a chip on his shoulder and Pittsburgh drafts another Taylor Price clone with our pick.
The secondary has the leader they've been missing with Wilson Mccourty makes people think of a young Reed.
Talib solidifies himself as a top 3 cornerback.
Arrington plays like a young Winfield in his prime.
Dennard with a chip on his shoulder the size of a boulder puts up 9 ints and leads the league in pass break ups.
Donta Hightower reminds people of what a monster he is and leads the league in tackles for losses.
Mayo racks up 242 tackles and gets his first int and returns it 99 yds for a td
Bequette and Jones remind people of Strahan and Osi.
Wilfork and Kelly don't allow a 100 yd rusher all season.
Mallett is traded for more than anyone would think.
Patriots go 18 and 1 winning the superbowl.
The arc championship Arrington falls down leaving a wide open Welker and he drops the pass on third down forcing the broncs to punt and patriots throw the game winner in the closing seconds to Danny A
Peyton and Welker both make the Manning face.
Patriots face Seahawks in the superbowl Brady completes 34 of 35 passes first pass picked off by Sherman MICHEAL Jenkins catches 4 tds all over Sherman.
Patriots win 34 to 3.
Patriots trade Mallet for a first rounder next year which becomes number 1 pick.
Belichick opens his favorite game show deal or no deal and absolutely kills some poor team which makes the Ricky Williams trade look smart in compare.

This is the ultimate Patriots boner. It'd be great as long as we do the winning the super bowl part

 

[RayClay]

Looking at the combine top performers that year, sanders has the quickness change of direction attributes we value most, as well as speed. short shuttle and three cone top performer.

Of course, we haven't done well drafting on athletic ability, but his years in the league proves he has the other attributes necessary to stick on a good team.

Don't we love Pittsburgh drafting for us too, lol. Must be something with the systems, or a respect for their organization.

 

[Rob0729]

jeezus krist...sometimes I can't take all this whining and crying....let me ask the board, would you all prefer a return to the days of Bobby Grier???

Well Grier did draft Terry Glenn. So if you ignore virtually every other pick he made and the fact that Glenn was a major head case (basically Dez Bryant before Dez Bryant), the guy knows how to draft deep threat WRs.

 

[Ivan]

I have to say there is no one who can draft players who have been in the league for 2 years better than Captain Stone. His ability to weed out the busts from the greats is simply paranormal

 

[RayClay]

Well Grier did draft Terry Glenn. So if you ignore virtually every other pick he made and the fact that Glenn was a major head case (basically Dez Bryant before Dez Bryant), the guy knows how to draft deep threat WRs.

Except when you look at the list of top receivers that were available in that draft.

It's even in the WIKI.

This draft is considered one of the best draft classes ever for the position of wide receiver. Keyshawn Johnson, Terry Glenn, Eddie Kennison, Marvin Harrison, Eric Moulds, Bobby Engram, Terrell Owens, Muhsin Muhammad, Amani Toomer, Jermaine Lewis, and Joe Horn have all achieved success in the pros, with all except Kennison, Engram, and Toomer having reached the Pro Bowl at least once

Any idiot can come up with a player with the 7th overall pick. I'm sure what drove Parcells crazy is he knew he could pick defense, trade down or whatever and still get a (future)pro bowl receiver or two.