Slightly OT: NFL Offenses Today, and Their Respective Units

[Vindicate]

Hey all, as we've seen discussed over and over is a very "full-picture" failure on the offensive side of the ball with the Patriots, and something I've seen with the Bengals as well, and also quite a bit throughout the league:

- Offensive lines are so inconsistent now. It's as if the rare body archetype of an olinemen is actually under even more pressure as defenses continue to get faster. Defenses are so freakishly athletic, it seems their ceiling has gone much beyond that of O-Lines. Also, the transition from college to pro seems to be the most rugged its been in awhile. Ours has not been stout since Scar left.

- Receivers themselves are quite wild, but very much YAC machines and product of breakdowns when someone is flushed out of pocket, etc. Exceptional route runnering seem to be an afterthought to just overall crazy speed.

- And then quarterbacking itself is lacking those "pure pocket passers", which seems to be nearly impossible to be if offensive lines can't keep it clean as long as you need.

It seems like a much more chaotic product. It's exciting at times, but ironically, these rule changes have seemed to force defenses to become pretty damn insane. Good DB play is an ART now, as they had to adjust to the rules. Linebackers are these wild hybrids alongside Safeti's. Defensive lines are smaller, yet far more athletic, and just blow through their heavier opposition across the line of play.

My question being: what gives? Am I wrong? I'm pretty basic when it comes to football intricacies.

Maybe those who know more than I can explain maybe why Daniels and the Dolphins have figured something out (I often hear he's really smart - does gameplan really well? Or did he just get two insane receivers to bail out the crappier products of the offensive?)

What's up with the lack of coaching options? Why are offensive lines dumb as hell?

Please feel free to remove if needed. Not trying to waste space. Just a worthwhile discussion that could help provide some insight to our own woes (beyond some very questionable management decisions).

Thanks in advance for those who contribute.

 

[archstanton543]

"Why are offensive lines dumb as hell?"

O-linemen are not usually getting degrees in astrophysics in college. They're more underwater basket weaving majors.

 

[borg]

Offense generated points scored thru 4 games ('22 vs '23)

Patricia.......67
BOB.............53

 

[upstater1]

For decades the emphasis was on speed rushers coming around the edge. But that proved futile against good QBs.

So now the most talented rushers are guys who come up the middle and disrupt the passing games.

Guard used to be a position that you wouldn't spend many resources on. Now this position is at a premium. It's almost as important to have good guards than it is to have tackles.

Maybe more important. You can certainly make a case.

And the DTs are now speedy and athletic.

The Patriots have Barmore, Wise and Keion White who can be wrecking crews applying pressure inside.

If only we had the DBs right now to create more "chaos."

I'd like to see Dugger drop down and someone else take over deep safety. Let Mapu, Dugger and Peppers hunt. Let Tavai and Bentley split reps.

 

[archstanton543]

Offense generated points scored thru 4 games ('22 vs '23)

Patricia.......67
BOB.............53

Different players on offense (especially on the O-line) and different opponents and weather conditions.

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

Offense generated points scored thru 4 games ('22 vs '23)

Patricia.......67
BOB.............53

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

Different players on offense (especially on the O-line)

last year patricia had rookie strange at LG and Wynn who was **** at RT...O-Line wasnt better from personnel, they just performed better. With our new O-Line Coach this year Strange managed to show 0 development so far

and different opponents and weather conditions.

 

[Ring 6]

Hey all, as we've seen discussed over and over is a very "full-picture" failure on the offensive side of the ball with the Patriots, and something I've seen with the Bengals as well, and also quite a bit throughout the league:

- Offensive lines are so inconsistent now. It's as if the rare body archetype of an olinemen is actually under even more pressure as defenses continue to get faster. Defenses are so freakishly athletic, it seems their ceiling has gone much beyond that of O-Lines. Also, the transition from college to pro seems to be the most rugged its been in awhile. Ours has not been stout since Scar left.

- Receivers themselves are quite wild, but very much YAC machines and product of breakdowns when someone is flushed out of pocket, etc. Exceptional route runnering seem to be an afterthought to just overall crazy speed.

- And then quarterbacking itself is lacking those "pure pocket passers", which seems to be nearly impossible to be if offensive lines can't keep it clean as long as you need.

It seems like a much more chaotic product. It's exciting at times, but ironically, these rule changes have seemed to force defenses to become pretty damn insane. Good DB play is an ART now, as they had to adjust to the rules. Linebackers are these wild hybrids alongside Safeti's. Defensive lines are smaller, yet far more athletic, and just blow through their heavier opposition across the line of play.

My question being: what gives? Am I wrong? I'm pretty basic when it comes to football intricacies.

Maybe those who know more than I can explain maybe why Daniels and the Dolphins have figured something out (I often hear he's really smart - does gameplan really well? Or did he just get two insane receivers to bail out the crappier products of the offensive?)

What's up with the lack of coaching options? Why are offensive lines dumb as hell?

Please feel free to remove if needed. Not trying to waste space. Just a worthwhile discussion that could help provide some insight to our own woes (beyond some very questionable management decisions).

Thanks in advance for those who contribute.

My opinion has long been that the west coast offense ruined football.
It was innovative and effective when it was new but over time defenses adjusted and it was left with just its concepts. Those concepts are rooted in the checkdown and short high percentage passes, and “staying in schedule”. Staying in schedule means you work to get to makable 3rd down distances. It’s a bend but don’t break offense. And that philosophy doesn’t consistently win football games.
The key to an effective offense is making first downs on first and second down, getting chunk plays and not using first and second downs simply to set up 3rd down.
That approach in some ways negates the pass rush, but in many ways makes the pass rush more dangerous, when it’s most important.
Teams that dink and dunk and get the ball out quickly substituting passes for the running game, invariably get pressured when they are forced to throw the ball.

When an offense is getting chunk plays on first and second down, it’s very hard to stop. When an offense needs to convert 7 3rd downs to drive the length of the girls it’s usually doomed.

 

[Vindicate]

"Why are offensive lines dumb as hell?"

O-linemen are not usually getting degrees in astrophysics in college. They're more underwater basket weaving majors.

Lmao, maybe I can be more specific: why is the play of olinemen "dumb"? I don't care if they have a single brain cell dedicated to physics, but they should prolly have a pretty thorough understanding of their position and look competent haha. Maybe that's wishful thinking.

 

[PATS16N0]

All offensive lines look like they suck when you have a goober behind it. People consider Brady an “immobile” quarterback but he was a master at manipulating it, bullet-time shifting around to make a play. You don’t need to be able to scramble and run twenty yards in “todays NFL,” you just can’t be bad.

So you’re wrong.

More accurate would be to say “in todays NFL you need a quarterback.”

If you don’t have one of the best QBs in the league, you have one of the worst.

 

[Vindicate]

My opinion has long been that the west coast offense ruined football.
It was innovative and effective when it was new but over time defenses adjusted and it was left with just its concepts. Those concepts are rooted in the checkdown and short high percentage passes, and “staying in schedule”. Staying in schedule means you work to get to makable 3rd down distances. It’s a bend but don’t break offense. And that philosophy doesn’t consistently win football games.
The key to an effective offense is making first downs on first and second down, getting chunk plays and not using first and second downs simply to set up 3rd down.
That approach in some ways negates the pass rush, but in many ways makes the pass rush more dangerous, when it’s most important.
Teams that dink and dunk and get the ball out quickly substituting passes for the running game, invariably get pressured when they are forced to throw the ball.

When an offense is getting chunk plays on first and second down, it’s very hard to stop. When an offense needs to convert 7 3rd downs to drive the length of the girls it’s usually doomed.

Interesting - so does this mean you like the product of football now more than the early aughts? Or do you prefer that era never happened and that football was better before it? (Not saying this is what I think you're saying, just asking based off of that information.)

I guess that was all I consumed in my formative years so that "pure" pocket passing offense seemed so polished and intriguing to watch play out. And it makes sense that, as a Patriots fan who is primarily watching Tom Brady, I didn't have a front seat to defenses effectively "figuring it out" as I was watching the best player of all time use those concepts and philosophies to their absolute max output.

Do those concepts still inform offensive line play? Does carryover from that era affect the game today, still?

(Lotta questions. Sorry.)

 

[Vindicate]

All offensive lines look like they suck when you have a goober behind it. People consider Brady an “immobile” quarterback but he was a master at manipulating it, bullet-time shifting around to make a play. You don’t need to be able to scramble and run twenty yards in “todays NFL,” you just can’t be bad.

So you’re wrong.

More accurate would be to say “in todays NFL you need a quarterback.”

If you don’t have one of the best QBs in the league, you have one of the worst.

When you say this, do you mean, you can't make mistakes?

And I'm not sure that always holds up, right? Like while sacks are a weird stat in terms of measuring their effect on a game, a bad offensive line cannot provide crucial lanes for specific execution of plays. And it's clear because there are great QB's who have been muffed by bad O-Lines. There are some bad QB's who have pretty decent seasons. And it seems more frequent.

In the capacity of Ring 6's point, you could argue that actually, in fact, a great QB can only hide a bad line so long, which negates the whole "your QB just can't be bad." If the West coast spread doesn't produce good linemen, overtime defenses will figure that out and highlight that the weakness is linemen.

 

[PATS16N0]

When you say this, do you mean, you can't make mistakes?

And I'm not sure that always holds up, right? Like while sacks are a weird stat in terms of measuring their effect on a game, a bad offensive line cannot provide crucial lanes for specific execution of plays. And it's clear because there are great QB's who have been muffed by bad O-Lines. There are some bad QB's who have pretty decent seasons. And it seems more frequent.

In the capacity of Ring 6's point, you could argue that actually, in fact, a great QB can only hide a bad line so long, which negates the whole "your QB just can't be bad." If the West coast spread doesn't produce good linemen, overtime defenses will figure that out and highlight that the weakness is linemen.

An elite QB, though, can make a middle of the road offensive line look like a top 5.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Rule changes pushed by the Colts and Bill Polian kicked started the way the game is today. It took a while, but here we are.

There is no home field advantage anymore other than not traveling. O-lineman can ignore crowd noise as the entire line can get up and look at the QB and signal to the C to snap the ball. I noticed this started opening night against the Steelers in 2015.

O-lineman can line up yards off the line of scrimmage and jump early.

WR’s have a clear advantage on DB’s.

Players are pushing QB’s for 1st downs.

Almost every offense and defense looks the same. Hardly any teams have identities on either side of the ball.

 

[Vindicate]

Rule changes pushed by the Colts and Bill Polian kicked started the way the game is today. It took a while, but here we are.

There is no home field advantage anymore other than not traveling as O-lineman can ignore crowd noise as the entire line can get up and look at the QB and signal to the C to snap the ball. I noticed this started opening night against the Steelers in 2015.

O-lineman can line up yards off the line of scrimmage and jump early.

WR’s have a clear advantage on DB’s.

Players are pushing QB’s for 1st downs.

Almost every offense looks the same. Hardly any teams have identities on either side of the ball.

I think that's true, but I also think that the top CB's are better football players than the best WR's. You have to be so disciplined and of perfect form to be a consistently great CB - you have to really know the game, not just be a fast guy, OR your unit has to be very well coached (this is the only positive Patriots takeaway of the past few seasons: really great secondary play from solid game knowledge and coaching, as many of the players end up looking way different elsewhere)

 

[Ring 6]

Interesting - so does this mean you like the product of football now more than the early aughts? Or do you prefer that era never happened and that football was better before it? (Not saying this is what I think you're saying, just asking based off of that information.)

I guess that was all I consumed in my formative years so that "pure" pocket passing offense seemed so polished and intriguing to watch play out. And it makes sense that, as a Patriots fan who is primarily watching Tom Brady, I didn't have a front seat to defenses effectively "figuring it out" as I was watching the best player of all time use those concepts and philosophies to their absolute max output.

Do those concepts still inform offensive line play? Does carryover from that era affect the game today, still?

(Lotta questions. Sorry.)

It was really interesting to me that the Brady offense was largely a very conservative offense (when you are the better team why take excessive risk?) but in big games and at big moments Brady did exactly what I describe pushing the ball into the intermediate areas to get chunk plays on 1st and second down. I always thought the only way to slow our offense down in those years was to goad us into “staying on schedule” and force a lot of 3rd downs.

I preferred football in the 70s where the running game was vital and QBs threw the ball down the field.

Just my opinion but when you create an offense around short passes and quick throws you build an OL that will struggle on 3rd and long or 2 minute offense.

What would be very interesting would be to see how todays offensive schemes would have fared before all the rule changes favoring offense and passing happened. I don’t think todays offenses would stand a chance with the rule book of the 70s.