So where will Pass fit in? Will he? 3wks to decide

[Fencer]

I think Pass sealed his fate when he donned the 83 skullcap in the lockerroom after Branch was traded.

I don't know about that, but it certainly made him the front runner for this year's Dan Klecko Memorial "Not realizing how close your Patriot career is to ending" Award. I invented that award after Dan Klecko made a show of pummeling Koppen for a miss in the "Catch a punt and the team gets to skip a practice" game.

 

[shmessy]

Just a question: If they were "very close", then why wouldn't you actually list them? To go through all the trouble of looking them up and not listing them makes no sense. How close is "very close"?

Per the NFL.com players' pages: First 6 years touches Pass v. Brown:

222 - 244

Per NFL.com players' pages: First 6 years Fumbles/Lost Pass v. Brown:

3/1 - 5/1

However it DOES sound impressive when someone like Brady2Brown can write: "Some facts are very inconvenient. That's probably why you choose NOT to look at total number of touches. Brown has five times as many fumbles but carried the ball hundreds of times more often."

It only means something if you're comparing apples to apples. First 6 years against first 6 years.

 

[Digger44]

First 5 years touches Pass v. Brown:

222 - 221

If you're so interested in the exact number, you can look it up on NFL.com players' pages.

Wow I had no idea that NFL.com has stats!!! You go to be kidding me. The official stie of the NFL actually carries that type of info? No way you are kidding me. Why would they do someting so extreme?

 

[Digger44]

Per the NFL.com players' pages: First 6 years touches Pass v. Brown:

222 - 244

Per NFL.com players' pages: First 6 years Fumbles/Lost Pass v. Brown:

3/1 - 5/1

However it DOES sound impressive when someone like Brady2Brown can write: "Some facts are very inconvenient. That's probably why you choose NOT to look at total number of touches. Brown has five times as many fumbles but carried the ball hundreds of times more often." It only means something if you're comparing apples to apples. First 6 years against first 6 years.

I dont think the first six years are apples to apples. How can a RB/WR be apples to apples? Where do you put playing time? I think that that statement are over simplified. There is no black and white here.

 

[shmessy]

Wow I had no idea that NFL.com has stats!!! You go to be kidding me. The official stie of the NFL actually carries that type of info? No way you are kidding me. Why would they do someting so extreme?

So why did you have to ask, Einstein?

 

[Brownfan80]

Facts are pretty inconvenient, ain't they Brownfan80?
________
Per NFL.com player pages:

Patrick Pass: 6 years, 3 fumbles, 1 lost

Troy Brown: 14 years, 17 fumbles, 6 lost
________

Methinks we have alot of superficialism on this board when it comes to Patrick Pass and that one egregious play last year. This kid is still young, he knows the offense and special teams and he just had corrective surgery on a foot problem that held him back since college.

Heath Evans and his 1.9 ypc avg this year to go along with his mediocre blocking can't compare. He seems like a nice kid and I wish him well.

That comparison is rediculous. Brown was a starter and heavy contributor for much of his tenure, especially from 1998 to 2004, Pass has been a spot player that's used maybe five times a game where he actually touches the ball.

Your Silly comparison mars an otherwise valid point. But I said nothing of his propensity for fumbling, I said something of his toughness, of which his fumble count does not tell the tale.

 

[Digger44]

So why did you have to ask, Einstein?

because your use of stats sounded shady. another poster already accused you of chosing stats to your liking. in debates like this there are always larger pictures. it seems very convenient for you to go figure out the totals and not post them, but say its close. some of us just do not believe what we read. i am not saying you tried to pull anything off, it just seemed weird.

 

[Digger44]

That comparison is rediculous. Brown was a starter and heavy contributor for much of his tenure, especially from 1998 to 2004, Pass has been a spot player that's used maybe five times a game where he actually touches the ball.

Your Silly comparison mars an otherwise valid point. But I said nothing of his propensity for fumbling, I said something of his toughness, of which his fumble count does not tell the tale.

i totally agree

 

[Brownfan80]

Everyone got on his case when he fumbled after blowing his hamstring... they laughed when he said it felt like getting shot.

But I've both been shot in my thigh and blown a hamstring and Pass is speaking the truth.

No amount of football willpower could have prevented me from grasping the back of my thigh when I got shot, nor when I tore my hamstring - so that fumble is a non-issue for me

I've said it once, and I'll say it again. I'd have not been on his case if he in fact did BLOW his hamstring. But Pass missed exactly TWO games with his injury. That hammy was not blown. It would take FAR longer than two games to get cleared to play with a BLOWN hammy.

If Pass had been injured more severely I'd have gotten off his case long ago.

EDIT: And yes, I agree with you. A regular guy like you or I would probably grab at an injury. But these guys are pros. I watched Ed McCaffery go over the middle, catch a ball, get hit DIRECTLY after the catch, have his lower leg break in both bones, flapping in the wind as he fell down. He landed hard. He stayed down. The refs ran over. Took the ball out of his hands, called for a trainer and then signaled the first down.

Ed came back to play, but the hit more or less sent his career into it's ending. Pass was back two weeks later and still couldn't hang on to the ball when he was UNTOUCHED.

I understand the real world comparison, but personally I don't want the players on the NFL Football team I watch to be as tough as me. They're getting paid to be 100 times tougher. And Pass's fumble was exactly what I would have done. I am an Editor at an online publication. He's a pro athlete.

That's just my take on it, I can understand if some don't agree.

 

[shmessy]

because your use of stats sounded shady. another poster already accused you of chosing stats to your liking. in debates like this there are always larger pictures. it seems very convenient for you to go figure out the totals and not post them, but say its close. some of us just do not believe what we read. i am not saying you tried to pull anything off, it just seemed weird.

You're a piece of work. The data YOU REQUESTED gets shown to you and attributed to a source (for which you can only post a sarcastic "gee, who woulda thunk they have stats" kind of answer) and all you can do is write "It just seemed weird".

 

[Brownfan80]

You're a piece of work. The data YOU REQUESTED gets shown to you and attributed to a source (for which you can only post a sarcastic "gee, who woulda thunk they have stats" kind of answer) and all you can do is write "It just seemed weird".

To be fair, the player that Troy became was not the player that Troy was for the first six seasons of his career.

I still maintain that your data says nothing to my original point of his toughness though.

Brown and even Fumbley Faulk are tougher in my eyes than Pass will ever be.

I've seen Faulk fumble a lot. But every single time that I can remember he's at least been touched. Same for Troy.

 

[shmessy]

Brownfan80:
That comparison is rediculous. Brown was a starter and heavy contributor for much of his tenure, especially from 1998 to 2004, Pass has been a spot player that's used maybe five times a game where he actually touches the ball.
_________

Shmessy:
Compare apples to apples, Brownfan80! First 6 years versus first 6 years. You're picking and choosing years 6 through 12 for Brown. Not fair, dude. You can't compare that until Pass gets years 6 through 12. Then you can compare. There was a reason Brown was cut twice by Parcells. There was a reason why Pass was cut by BB. Giving each a chance to grow and breathe and the Pats have benefitted. I'm not saying Pass will be as great as Troy Brown. I wouldn't even dream it. But I use the example of Troy in illustrating that what so many here are complaining about re: Pass is not unusual even to the greatest of Patriots players.



Your Silly comparison mars an otherwise valid point. But I said nothing of his propensity for fumbling, I said something of his toughness, of which his fumble count does not tell the tale.[/QUOTE]

 

[Clonamery]

You're a piece of work.

You're very kind.

 

[shmessy]

To be fair, the player that Troy became was not the player that Troy was for the first six seasons of his career.

I still maintain that your data says nothing to my original point of his toughness though.

Brown and even Fumbley Faulk are tougher in my eyes than Pass will ever be.

I've seen Faulk fumble a lot. But every single time that I can remember he's at least been touched. Same for Troy.

So you are basing your evaluation of Pass over the past 6 years on ONE play?

 

[shmessy]

Originally Posted by shmessy to Digger44
You're a piece of work.

You're very kind.

Hee, hee. I have to be, Clona.

Ooh, but there was so much more I could've said to Digger about the numerous alerts we Mods get about him every week from posters complaining about what he "brings" to the board.

 

[Clonamery]

To be fair, the player that Troy became was not the player that Troy was for the first six seasons of his career.

I still maintain that your data says nothing to my original point of his toughness though.

Brown and even Fumbley Faulk are tougher in my eyes than Pass will ever be.

I've seen Faulk fumble a lot. But every single time that I can remember he's at least been touched. Same for Troy.

I questioned Pass' toughness after that play but how fair is that?

You don't have to be fair.....but from what I've seen you usually are.

I don't like throwing the baby (ha!) with the bath water.

If he wasn't tough, my guess is he wouldn't have survived the many years playing ST's.

 

[Brownfan80]

Shmessy:
Compare apples to apples, Brownfan80! First 6 years versus first 6 years. You're picking and choosing years 6 through 12 for Brown. Not fair, dude. You can't compare that until Pass gets years 6 through 12. Then you can compare. There was a reason Brown was cut twice by Parcells. There was a reason why Pass was cut by BB. Giving each a chance to grow and breathe and the Pats have benefitted. I'm not saying Pass will be as great as Troy Brown. I wouldn't even dream it. But I use the example of Troy in illustrating that what so many here are complaining about re: Pass is not unusual even to the greatest of Patriots players.

I understand your fumble comparison. But I still say it has nothing to do with my point, and it does not change my feelings for Pass.

It's not that pass fumbled. It's not the actual act of fumbling. Faulk fumbles and I love Faulk.

Obviously my boy has fumbled a bit and I still love him.

But I've seen alot of injuries in the NFL, and his is the only one I've ever seen (there may be more that I haven't seen, granted) that resulted in an untouched fumble. And he was playing again after missing only two games.

I've posted these feelings in other threads in the past, and people have always disagreed with me, but not much has ever been said to change my mind. This isn't a guy that contributes as much as a Troy or a Faulk. I don't know why I should pull up on my feelings of him until he shows me something to cause that to happen. At which time of course I will give credit where it's due. You have seen my posts, Schmessy, you know I'm not just out to hate on any player.

 

[shmessy]

I understand your fumble comparison. But I still say it has nothing to do with my point, and it does not change my feelings for Pass.

It's not that pass fumbled. It's not the actual act of fumbling. Faulk fumbles and I love Faulk.

Obviously my boy has fumbled a bit and I still love him.

But I've seen alot of injuries in the NFL, and his is the only one I've ever seen (there may be more that I haven't seen, granted) that resulted in an untouched fumble. And he was playing again after missing only two games.

I've posted these feelings in other threads in the past, and people have always disagreed with me, but not much has ever been said to change my mind. This isn't a guy that contributes as much as a Troy or a Faulk. I don't know why I should pull up on my feelings of him until he shows me something to cause that to happen. At which time of course I will give credit where it's due. You have seen my posts, Schmessy, you know I'm not just out to hate on any player.

I know, BF80. You're one of the many posters I truly enjoy reading and learning from.

Once again, my point is not to say that Pass is as great as Troy or even Kevin. There's no way i would at this point put him on the same level as either one of those guys. As I mentioned in my previous post, there's no way I would even dream of Pass being the player Troy turned out be. However, I DO believe he deserves the same opportunity to grow that the slow to develop Troy Brown received. Many forget Troy's first 5 years as a Pat.

The whole thing comes down to is "Is he a benefit to the Pats?" and "Would you take him on this team over a Heath Evans?"

I strongly believe the answer to both of those questions is yes.

 

[Brownfan80]

I questioned Pass' toughness after that play but how fair is that?

You don't have to be fair.....but from what I've seen you usually are.

I don't like throwing the baby (ha!) with the bath water.

If he wasn't tough, my guess is he wouldn't have survived the many years playing ST's.

You're probably right, but until I see Pass actually DO something I'm prone to stick with my opinion.

I really do try to be fair in my thoughts, but in this case I don't feel as though I'm not. We're talking about a primarily ST player who rarely touches the ball on offense. It's not like he's Faulk or Brown where for each mistake you can forgive it five plays later for the big play they just gave you. Pass is a JAG, that I've seen.

 

[Brownfan80]

I know, BF80. You're one of the many posters I truly enjoy reading and learning from.

Once again, my point is not to say that Pass is as great as Troy or even Kevin. The whole thing comes down to is "Is he a benefit to the Pats?" and "Would youu take him on this team over a Heath Evans?"

I strongly believe the answer to both of those questions is yes.

At this point, I'd have to disagree about Evans. Forget his TD against the Dolphins, that's not what I'm basing it on. From what I've seen of Evans he can do everything that I've seen Pass do except return kicks. And Pass was never very good at KR anyway. And Evans never fumbled without being touched! I know that's not fair, and I'll eat crow if Pass is activated and Evans is dropped, but at this point I just can't see that happening.

I think that this might just be one that I'm wrong on but too stubborn to care. And that's okay with me. Graham does most of the key blocking anyway, so we're really talking about a more or less secondary position in our offense.

If Pass ever changes my mind I'll be the absolute first to admit it. I promise you that.