Story on Patriots' documentary brings recent dysfunction to light

[Triumph]

Ahh yes the old "6 rings" defense. Bill's 6 rings look a lot less shiny when Brady isn't around.

Also the good player = Bill, bad player = someone else argument is truly the saddest straw to grasp at for Team Bill. Both Bill and Team Bill go down with an embarrassing whimper.

Enjoy the silly season while you can.

BB will be back and he will win.

 

[venecol]

so did manning. is he better than montana?
not devaluing players at all. but i feel coaching is being devalued in general at times . as if tb,montana,etc. just sprung from the earth perfectly formed like greek gods.

You over value the effect of coaching on the results. It's a players game. The plays that the players make is what makes the difference. Coaching affects some game time decisions, but in the end, whatever those decisions are depend on the players making the plays.

No player but the starting QB has the effect of moving a spread by several points. Spreads don't move for coaches. QB is the most important position in all professional sports. Trying to compare or equate the effects of a coach on a game versus the QB is just noise.

 

[PF_SU]

It wasn't always peak Moss/Welker or peak Gronknandez but most seasons he had weapons that he was good with:
Brown/Branch/Givens
Moss/Welker
Gronknandez
Gronk/Jules/dola

I'd say arguably the replacement with weapons for the offense was sufficient until 2018.
2006 was terrible after Branch was traded, but the next offseason Belichick went out and traded for Moss (who got a top-end extension the following season) and Welker (who cost a 2nd and 7th to a division rival).
In 2010 when Moss was gradually declining they drafted Gronk and Hernandez. After Moss got traded in 2010 they got back Branch who had productive 1.5 seasons alongside Welker and the TEs.
In 2012 they got another close to 1000-yard receiver in Brandon Lloyd to team up with Welker, Moss and Hernandez.
2013 was a (relative) down year after Welker left, but still, the receiving corps would have been sufficient if Hernandez hadn't gone criminal.
And between 2014 and 2017 the combination of Gronk, Edelman, Amendola and whoever was the fourth receiving option - be it LaFell or Hogan - was capable of keeping up with the best.
Yes, they didn't have an all-pro WR after Moss and Welker - but why would you need that if you have Gronk and Edelman already? You don't go to 4 Super Bowls in 5 seasons with weapons that suck. It wasn't until Gronk started to slow down that the weapons started to degrade and Belichick did mess up the 2019 draft by going with N'Keal Harry rather than Deebo Samuel and AJ Brown after losing Gronk, but until then the weapons were top third of the league if you look beyond just WR.

I've said to posters on here that had AB kept it together in 2019 we win another superbowl. The offense is what kept us back thst season.

I still recall the media reactions after Brown was signed - it was in consensus to the tune of the rich get richer and the Patriots are again favourites to win it all. Brown was signed after a 33-3 shellacking of the Steelers in which the offense put up 465 yards with Edelman having 83 yards receiving, Dorsett 95 and Josh Gordon 73.

 

[signbabybrady]

You over value the effect of coaching on the results. It's a players game. The plays that the players make is what makes the difference. Coaching affects some game time decisions, but in the end, whatever those decisions are depend on the players making the plays.

No player but the starting QB has the effect of moving a spread by several points. Spreads don't move for coaches. QB is the most important position in all professional sports. Trying to compare or equate the effects of a coach on a game versus the QB is just noise.

You seem to only have this opinion when it comes to BB and are incapable of looking at it as he compares to his peers and only want to have the BB vs Brady thing.

 

[Real fan 02]

I'd say arguably the replacement with weapons for the offense was sufficient until 2018.
2006 was terrible after Branch was traded, but the next offseason Belichick went out and traded for Moss (who got a top-end extension the following season) and Welker (who cost a 2nd and 7th to a division rival).
In 2010 when Moss was gradually declining they drafted Gronk and Hernandez. After Moss got traded in 2010 they got back Branch who had productive 1.5 seasons alongside Welker and the TEs.
In 2012 they got another close to 1000-yard receiver in Brandon Lloyd to team up with Welker, Moss and Hernandez.
2013 was a (relative) down year after Welker left, but still, the receiving corps would have been sufficient if Hernandez hadn't gone criminal.
And between 2014 and 2017 the combination of Gronk, Edelman, Amendola and whoever was the fourth receiving option - be it LaFell or Hogan - was capable of keeping up with the best.
Yes, they didn't have an all-pro WR after Moss and Welker - but why would you need that if you have Gronk and Edelman already? You don't go to 4 Super Bowls in 5 seasons with weapons that suck. It wasn't until Gronk started to slow down that the weapons started to degrade and Belichick did mess up the 2019 draft by going with N'Keal Harry rather than Deebo Samuel and AJ Brown after losing Gronk, but until then the weapons were top third of the league if you look beyond just WR.


I still recall the media reactions after Brown was signed - it was in consensus to the tune of the rich get richer and the Patriots are again favourites to win it all. Brown was signed after a 33-3 shellacking of the Steelers in which the offense put up 465 yards with Edelman having 83 yards receiving, Dorsett 95 and Josh Gordon 73.

And the Steelers blamed it on the patriots having something to do with the alarm being set off at 4 am at thier hotel.. LOL..

I remember, that feeling was like we definitely make it back to back to the superbowl finally having a guy like AB his skill set.. boy was that short lived.

 

[HSanders]

You over value the effect of coaching on the results. It's a players game. The plays that the players make is what makes the difference. Coaching affects some game time decisions, but in the end, whatever those decisions are depend on the players making the plays.

No player but the starting QB has the effect of moving a spread by several points. Spreads don't move for coaches. QB is the most important position in all professional sports. Trying to compare or equate the effects of a coach on a game versus the QB is just noise.

players have to execute,yes. no one wins without good players. the amount of great-exceptional players a coach needs is telling imo.coaches' jobs are to make sure they are prepared to do that,develop them, and put them in the right positions to make those plays. we've seen lots of examples of players who were just ok on other teams be good-great elsewhere. that difference is coaching.

 

[signbabybrady]

And the Steelers blamed it on the patriots having something to do with the alarm being set off at 4 am at thier hotel.. LOL..

I remember, that feeling was like we definitely make it back to back to the superbowl finally having a guy like AB his skill set.. boy was that short lived.

Tomlin was always paranoid lol.

 

[203Pat]

How many seasons did we really start without Brady having a good amount of weapons?
06 and 19 might be it.

It wasn't always peak Moss/Welker or peak Gronknandez but most seasons he had weapons that he was good with:
Brown/Branch/Givens
Moss/Welker
Gronknandez
Gronk/Jules/dola

When healthy Gronk was a top 1 or 2 TE in pretty much any year he played here so for the later half of the dynasty Brady had an elite caliber weapon when Gronk was on the field. Outside of that, as much as I love him, Edelman is largely a product of Brady as was Welker. Hernandez for the short time he was here was a very good compliment to the offense and a B+ level weapon by NFL standards. Outside of a couple years with Moss and then Brady's time with Gronk he largely played with a very subpar offensive cast but Brady elevated them.

Brady was the tide that lifted all boats and turned guys like Brandon Lafell, Chris Hogan, and David Givens into solid producers. Both Lafell and Hogan saw around a 20% bump in their numbers and Givens never got much of a chance with Tennessee after his knee injury but I view him in the same mold as Lafell and Hogan. These guys were complete JAGs by NFL standards and each of them has a ring or two because Tom was throwing them the ball.

It wasn't a bare cupboard every year but Brady's offensive weapons were generally closer to the middle of the pack than they ever were to being an elite group. Hell, that 2018 group won a ring and he was throwing to Phillip Dorsett, the corpse of Josh Gordon, Edelman (minus 4 games) coming off a major injury, and a banged up and exhausted Gronk.

Yes I remember that podcast! All those guys you mentioned thier careers boomed becuase of Brady. Lafell was actually a first down machine, he got hurt, and wasn't the same player. Yeah in a sense Bill was conceding how great Brady was by giving him lesser players. I've said to posters on here that had AB kept it together in 2019 we win another superbowl. The offense is what kept us back thst season.

I agree that if AB could have kept it together, or if we took any one of the elite receivers instead of Harry, we would have been right back in the Super Bowl mix. Edelman was a great player in his own right but even he seems to admit without saying it that he wouldn't have had anywhere close to the success he did without Brady. I think he even mentioned his visit to NY the year we signed Amendola and how he didn't want to start over somewhere else and not catch passes from the GOAT.

Enjoy the silly season while you can.

BB will be back and he will win.

You likely won't believe it but I truly hope Bill gets a job on a more ready made team like Dallas, Philly, or even as much as I hate to say it, the Bills. I really don't think it will happen after garnering almost no interest this year but I will root for him if he does get a job next year.

 

[Steve102]

You over value the effect of coaching on the results. It's a players game. The plays that the players make is what makes the difference. Coaching affects some game time decisions, but in the end, whatever those decisions are depend on the players making the plays.

No player but the starting QB has the effect of moving a spread by several points. Spreads don't move for coaches. QB is the most important position in all professional sports. Trying to compare or equate the effects of a coach on a game versus the QB is just noise.

And you waaaaay under value it. @HSanders is 100% right.

 

[PF_SU]

I remember, that feeling was like we definitely make it back to back to the superbowl finally having a guy like AB his skill set.. boy was that short lived.

I still remember that first series against Miami when Brady went 3-3 with all passes to Brown. It looked so effortless the way the offense scored on that drive. While the O slowed down later in the game and Brady tried to force-feed Brown, I felt very confident after that Miami game. The D looked monstrous and with the O bolstered by having a receiver like Brown it looked like nobody could beat this team...

 

[Real fan 02]

I still remember that first series against Miami when Brady went 3-3 with all passes to Brown. It looked so effortless the way the offense scored on that drive. While the O slowed down later in the game and Brady tried to force-feed Brown, I felt very confident after that Miami game. The D looked monstrous and with the O bolstered by having a receiver like Brown it looked like nobody could beat this team...

Yes, the thrill and excitement that game. Your right the defense was on another level that season! Just if, if.. AB kept his cool that season.. I swear to you there's nothing that convinces me we don't at least get to another Lombardi.

 

[1960Pats]

so did manning. is he better than montana?
not devaluing players at all. but i feel coaching is being devalued in general at times . as if tb,montana,etc. just sprung from the earth perfectly formed like greek gods.

The greatest coach had a 4-13 season last year and the reason was because he didn't have the players to win. As Bill has stated so many times, it's a player's game. It's really that simple.

 

[Real fan 02]

The greatest coach had a 4-13 season last year and the reason was because he didn't have the players to win. As Bill has stated so many times, it's a player's game. It's really that simple.

Agreed! Without the guys, nothing else makes up for the lack of talent. Athletes today are much faster, bigger, stronger and have more available to them to maintain thier bodies. Point being, there is no reason for us not to have elite players.

 

[1960Pats]

And you waaaaay under value it. @HSanders is 100% right.

I'm with @venecol on this. I've never felt that coaches were nearly as important as players and I see proof of that every football season. There are plenty of times where the better coach loses but not many at all where the better players lose.

 

[1960Pats]

Agreed! Without the guys, nothing else makes up for the lack of talent. Athletes today are much faster, bigger, stronger and have more available to them to maintain thier bodies. Point being, there is no reason for us not to have elite players.

As some here have mentioned it's about getter proper player evaluations. If the Pats get that then they can get back on track pretty quickly.

 

[archstanton543]

I'm with @venecol on this. I've never felt that coaches were nearly as important as players and I see proof of that every football season. There are plenty of times where the better coach loses but not many at all where the better players lose.

Well ****, let's get rid of the helmet radios and just have guys call plays off of their arm bands if that's the case.

 

[Real fan 02]

As some here have mentioned it's about getter proper player evaluations. If the Pats get that then they can get back on track pretty quickly.

Absolutely, I'll say though Wolfe has a great eye for talent. From what I've heard on him he's very respected around the league. My understanding is Mayo is stating to his coaches what he wants on offense particularly.. as we know that whole side of the ball is under construction.

 

[ScottishPatriots]

People can't seem to separate, Brady is never Brady without the first 3-4 years and Bills coaching.

Then Brady took control and became the most important thing at any team in the league, more important than any coach, gm or owner could ever be.

Without Bill then Brady probably is just another backup lost in the shuffle and without Brady then Bill doesn't see a 3rd season as head coach of the Patriots, a top 10 quarterback is more important than any coach and it's been proven time and time again over the past 10 years but Brady rise to becoming that relied heavily on the coach putting his neck on the line for a belief in a 6th round pick.

 

[Steve102]

I'm with @venecol on this. I've never felt that coaches were nearly as important as players and I see proof of that every football season. There are plenty of times where the better coach loses but not many at all where the better players lose.

*Super Bowls 25, 36, and 42 have entered the chat*

 

[Real fan 02]

People can't seem to separate, Brady is never Brady without the first 3-4 years and Bills coaching.

Then Brady took control and became the most important thing at any team in the league, more important than any coach, gm or owner could ever be.

Without Bill then Brady probably is just another backup lost in the shuffle and without Brady then Bill doesn't see a 3rd season as head coach of the Patriots, a top 10 quarterback is more important than any coach and it's been proven time and time again over the past 10 years but Brady rise to becoming that relied heavily on the coach putting his neck on the line for a belief in a 6th round pick.

I think the consensus is in agreement with your point. No argument from me that early on absolutely Bill's coaching was a huge factor in Brady's development and success. Once Brady become a winner, his insatiable desire to win and be great over took all coaching aspects. There wasn't a coach out there that could motivate Brady more than he could motivate himself from how he came into the league.