Update: Curran says Belichick has been on the hot seat since 2019

[All3Phases]

Come on now, we all know you put that graphic up because it was what put Brady in a less favorable light compared to other QBs. Then you said there's basically no correlation between defense PPG average over a number of years and actual results on the field (you said the 2020-22 defense was not up to par with the defense when Brady was on the team, despite the PPG being better on average), and now you're adding a caveat that it needs something close to a 21 year window to be legit.

Now you say a 3-year window is not legit, yet you keep bringing up Brees 3-year window from 2014-16 as a counterpoint.

I'm not pretending anything. I'm just pointing out that the 'stats' you keep referring to are dubious at best, or misleading at worst. They're clearly intented to remove part of the credits given to Brady for the team success over the year. The agenda is quite clear.

I don't think anyone thinks Brady would have won surrounded by high school talent and/or Clive Rush as the head coach. That was never the point. I certainly don't think he would have won under these circumstances. I believe the point is that he made the Pats, and then the Bucs, a significantly better team than they were when looking at all the other pieces....you know, by being the best of all-time.

But I also think other great, HOF QBs have a significant impact on their HC legacy as well. Andy Reid was known as a great coach before 2018, but only since Mahomes did we start hearing about him being one of the all-time greats. Mike Shanahan won with Elway, and no one else. Chuck Noll won with Bradshaw and no one else, Paul Brown with Graham and no one else, Landry with Staubach and no one else. It's not that these coaches were incompetent with other QBs, there are all among the best of all-time and build good to great teams over a long period of time, but only with these HOF QB difference makers were they able to win championship. That's how important QB play is relative to everything else. QB play is not the only part of a championship team, but it's usually the most impactful.

Unbelievable post

 

[Triumph]

Harris screwed him on the last one but the rest of those are mostly on Mac.

No

It was Patricia and Judge helped him.

 

[Noexcusesfornumber5]

I just don't understand the desire to tear down BB. The team he put around Tom rescued him from his mistakes more often than people will acknowledge. And TB rescued BB from himself many times as well. Of course there was no BB without TB. There was also no TB without BB. History in the NFL is going to show that they won together. Why are we arguing about their individual claims to the trophies we have in Foxboro? One guy got an extra trophy, big ****ing deal. They made their amends, we should too, and root for the coach, team and his staff just as hard as we rooted for them back when the franchise began.

 

[patfanken]

That's NOT accurate. Everyone you mentioned is a factor. The question is how much of one. That's where it gets messy because the IBWTers can't stand Brady getting "too much" of the credit. When he's been a winner since day one and didn't stop for 22 seasons. While on the other hand you have everyone else including the head coach only winning when that one player is also there. So let's give credit where credit is due... the most valuable factor is Brady. Slot everyone else in there in descending order. That's it in a nutshell. And I'm repeating it because this ^ nonsense about completely disregarding everyone else besides Brady has been inaccurately stated about a 1000 times.

It never ceases to amaze me your lack of how football teams are built, why they win, and how the game is played. It shouldn't really. A lot of fans have rather shallow views of the game or just the ones being force fed them by "experts" and the media. It's not an easy game to grasp. So many moving parts. So many interactions It's so much easier to just try and jam it into a few easy labels and out of context clips. It's even easier to manipulate those labels and clips into convenient narratives.

The FACT is, that there is no other game where the relative success of any INDIVIDUAL is ao reliant on success of the other 10 guys on the field at that particular time, than football.

There WAS a time where the headline was always the "team" vs the "team". Then some marketing genius (probably at ESPN) decided it would be cooler to make it more about the individuals than the team and we got Brady vs Manning, etc. Two guys who never spent a DOWN on the field at the same time. Well, it is what it is, it obviously seems to work.....as a MARKETING strategy. But the GAME remains the same.

Now I don't want to make this about "demeaning" Brady's accomplishments. The best there ever was at the position. However YOU want to COMPLETELY ascribe the winning as solely being about the QB position to the degree that you can completely disregard the organization, coaches and the other 45 players on game day roster.

MPV (to mention another pet peeve) really doesn't have much meaning to me in the context of football. All it is, is the guy who has the best stats, and THOSE stats are completely reliant on how good 10 OTHER guys produced. WHY is this so hard to understand that I'm being forced to repeat the OBVIOUS again and again.

This IS NOT about who gets the credit, because EVERYONE needs to get the credit, its just the nature of the game. Just look at the 2 guys who YOU are trying to make this all about. Show me the quote where Bill ever ONCE takes credit for a SINGLE win. Show me the quote were Tom ever ONCE said, to the effect, this was all about me. Never happened. Why? Because unlike you, both THOSE 2 guys understood the nature of the game

 

[Wozzy]

Come on now, we all know you put that graphic up because it was what put Brady in a less favorable light compared to other QBs. Then you said there's basically no correlation between defense PPG average over a number of years and actual results on the field (you said the 2020-22 defense was not up to par with the defense when Brady was on the team, despite the PPG being better on average), and now you're adding a caveat that it needs something close to a 21 year window to be legit.

Now you say a 3-year window is not legit, yet you keep bringing up Brees 3-year window from 2014-16 as a counterpoint.

I'm not pretending anything. I'm just pointing out that the 'stats' you keep referring to are dubious at best, or misleading at worst. They're clearly intented to remove part of the credits given to Brady for the team success over the year. The agenda is quite clear.

I don't think anyone thinks Brady would have won surrounded by high school talent and/or Clive Rush as the head coach. That was never the point. I certainly don't think he would have won under these circumstances. I believe the point is that he made the Pats, and then the Bucs, a significantly better team than they were when looking at all the other pieces....you know, by being the best of all-time.

But I also think other great, HOF QBs have a significant impact on their HC legacy as well. Andy Reid was known as a great coach before 2018, but only since Mahomes did we start hearing about him being one of the all-time greats. Mike Shanahan won with Elway, and no one else. Chuck Noll won with Bradshaw and no one else, Paul Brown with Graham and no one else, Landry with Staubach and no one else. It's not that these coaches were incompetent with other QBs, there are all among the best of all-time and build good to great teams over a long period of time, but only with these HOF QB difference makers were they able to win championship. That's how important QB play is relative to everything else. QB play is not the only part of a championship team, but it's usually the most impactful.

"you put that graphic up because it was what put Brady in a less favorable light compared to other QBs"

What a load of horse manure, it didn't put Brady in any light. It put the Patriots team in a more favorable light and it's entirely accurate.

Newsflash fanboys... Brady never played defense, he never played special teams.

That's why Brady has 7 rings and Brees has one, Rogers has one... it's how Eli Manning has two. It proves unequivocally that it takes a team to win it all... and that's what irks QB fanboys. They believe in super heroes and unicorns.

I suppose Brees wasn't "elite" or "clutch" enough or whatever magical nonsense you attribute to things you can't understand when he led the NFL in passing from 2014-2015-2016? The Saints offense was ranked 5th, 6th and 2nd in scoring in the NFL, his defenses over that time... 31st, 32nd and 32nd worst in points allowed. He won 7 games, 7 games, 7 games.

Drew Brees is second on the all-time passing yards list, 2nd on the all-time TD's list behind Brady and 5th all-time in 4th quarter comebacks... let me guess, much like Watson in 2022 that's not impressive enough because... durrrr... stats.

 

[Ring 6]

You said your wording wasn't wrong, as you can see, it was. Now you're telling me we have to account for your mistakes. Bottom line is I know what you said about the Patricia hiring and you've reiterated some of it in this thread. I'll summarize... you understood it, it was reasonable, and you felt hopeful. That's a trifecta of ****ty takes on what was obviously an awful hire to nearly everyone else.

My wording wasn’t wrong there was an obvious typo that had nothing to do with the point.
Of course you are putting words in my mouth because you know the actual words don’t jive with your attempt to make me look bad.
I understood the reasoning, any logical person would. Not sure where “reasonable” comes from I never said one way or another on that and I was hopeful, because I am hopeful that every move the New England Patriots make will work out great.
I know your approach is to doom everything before it happens. I don’t. I want the best for the patriots so I am optimistic that every single move will work out.
But you know that and are just playing games.

 

[Ring 6]

3 YEARS LATER

No he said that at the time.

 

[Ring 6]

Stats aren’t meaningless, cumulative or otherwise and you can’t fake his kind of production. Do you notice no bad QB’s ever achieve those types of numbers?

Watson signed a 230M guaranteed contract after being prosecuted for being a sex predator… give up the “he’s not very good” routine. It’s a load of sht.

Defining good or bad by numbers then saying no bad qb achieved what you call good numbers is hypocritical.

When did I say “he’s not very good”? I said he wasn’t the best qb in the nfl in 2020 and I said I watched him play in 2020 and his stats were hollow.
Compiling stats while losing is not how good or best is defined.
Now you are arguing the Browns are the litmus test of smart evaluation? Good one.

 

[Wozzy]

Defining good or bad by numbers then saying no bad qb achieved what you call good numbers is hypocritical.

When did I say “he’s not very good”? I said he wasn’t the best qb in the nfl in 2020 and I said I watched him play in 2020 and his stats were hollow.
Compiling stats while losing is not how good or best is defined.
Now you are arguing the Browns are the litmus test of smart evaluation? Good one.

Statistically he was, his team wasn't so he didn't win any individual accolades, beyond 250 million guaranteed dollars... even after being labeled a sex offender.

Football is a team sport, I've already shown repeatedly that a QB can be among the best in the league and only win 4-7 games.

If QB's were a magical cheat code, Foles never would have beaten Brady while Tom was throwing 505 yards and 3 TD's.... I suppose Tom didn't have enough "clutch" juice left in his tank and needed to try harder... good grief.

It's evident there are a bunch of people posting here who have never played organized football at even the pee wee level.

 

[Ring 6]

Statistically he was, his team wasn't so he didn't win any individual accolades, beyond 250 million guaranteed dollars... even after being labeled a sex offender.

Football is a team sport, I've already shown repeatedly that a QB can be among the best in the league and only win 4-7 games.

If QB's were a magical cheat code, Foles never would have beaten Brady while Tom was throwing 505 yards and 3 TD's.... I suppose Tom didn't have enough "clutch" juice left in his tank and needed to try harder... good grief.

It's evident there are a bunch of people posting here who have never played organized football at even the pee wee level.

Football is a team sport. Football games are not won by cumulative statistics. Football games are won by making critical plays at critical times.

You haven’t SHOWN repeatedly you’ve repeated a statement many times. If I say the sky is green 1000000 times that isn’t SHOWING the sky is green.

I’m not sure where you get this fantastical cheat code argument from.
So I will explain to you.

Teams win football games. Every facet of the game matters despite novice or fans tasty football fans thinking passing and catching is all that matters.
Due to rule changes passing has evolved into the most frequent way teams move the ball and score points. None can do it regularly without a running game, or at all without blocking.
The QB is the most important position because he makes the decisions and executes the plays that are most determinative of the outcome. That is compared to any other player, not ALL other players.
QBs throw the ball roughly 600 times a season in a sport where 90% of the games are in play in the 4th quarter. Maybe 50-100 of those passes are the ones that are truly going to make the difference between winning and losing. (Ie the difference between winning and losing is one guy making 3-4 plays that the other guy didn’t).
When you cumulate stats you give the same value to 200 yards in garbage time against prevent defense as you give to 200 yards that built the lead and put the other guy up against prevent.

Football is not baseball. You cannot judge players on stats, because all stats are not created equal. You have to watch them. If you watch Watson in 2020 you would have seen a guy who often was the reason drives stalled, got his team in a hole then padded his numbers coming back and falling short.


As far as your Nick Foles comment I’m not sure any human other than the guy who pollutes all these threads thinks football is about 1 player and the other 53 don’t matter. If you put Brady up against Foles in any given day with relatively equal teams Brady will win a very high percentage of those but far from all. If you give Foles a better team the odds shift, if you give him a much better team he will win a very high percentage of them. I don’t know where people stopped understanding that.

 

[RDS11]

"you put that graphic up because it was what put Brady in a less favorable light compared to other QBs"

What a load of horse manure, it didn't put Brady in any light. It put the Patriots team in a more favorable light and it's entirely accurate.

Newsflash fanboys... Brady never played defense, he never played special teams.

That's why Brady has 7 rings and Brees has one, Rogers has one... it's how Eli Manning has two. It proves unequivocally that it takes a team to win it all... and that's what irks QB fanboys. They believe in super heroes and unicorns.

I suppose Brees wasn't "elite" or "clutch" enough or whatever magical nonsense you attribute to things you can't understand when he led the NFL in passing from 2014-2015-2016? The Saints offense was ranked 5th, 6th and 2nd in scoring in the NFL, his defenses over that time... 31st, 32nd and 32nd worst in points allowed. He won 7 games, 7 games, 7 games.

Drew Brees is second on the all-time passing yards list, 2nd on the all-time TD's list behind Brady and 5th all-time in 4th quarter comebacks... let me guess, much like Watson in 2022 that's not impressive enough because... durrrr... stats.

Oh, now we're into name calling ? Way easier than to defend your nonsense I guess.

I said it takes a team to win, but historically HOF QBs have a higher impact on a team success than any other part of a team, and your comeback is ''Brady never played defense'' ? That ought to tell me something I didn't know.

As in regard to Brees, volume stats just means he played for a long time. Bledsoe retired among the top 10 of all time in yards and TDs, I don't think nobody uses that to say he was an all-time great. But again, your brought Brees into the conversation, not me, I have no idea why you bring him up all the time.

You say 'that's why Brady has 7 rings and Brees has one'. But you don't define 'why' (that's one hell of an argument!) Do you really believe that all things being equal, Rodgers and Brees would have had the same number of Super Bowls as Brady ? Watson too I guess ? I guess all the GMs are crazy, spending most of the cap resources toward QBs, since they are just 1 single piece of a 53-players roster.

 

[PatsWSB47]

Has anyone considered the Belichick and Brady developed each other over the dynasty? That the work they did together wouldn't have worked as well if Belichick had a different quarterback and Brady had a different coach over their careers? They are both goats but only because they were together.

 

[TheRainMaker]

I just don't understand the desire to tear down BB. The team he put around Tom rescued him from his mistakes more often than people will acknowledge. And TB rescued BB from himself many times as well. Of course there was no BB without TB. There was also no TB without BB. History in the NFL is going to show that they won together. Why are we arguing about their individual claims to the trophies we have in Foxboro? One guy got an extra trophy, big ****ing deal. They made their amends, we should too, and root for the coach, team and his staff just as hard as we rooted for them back when the franchise began.

When you become the most winningest franchise in the last 20 years, fans will expect a certain standard. I don't think most fans expect Super Bowls, but they at least expect a division title and/or a playoff win sometime soon. We're going on 4 years now without a division title, one playoff appearance and no playoff wins. Bill makes ALL the decisions, so there's no excuses why he can't deliver.

 

[borg]

Has anyone considered the Belichick and Brady developed each other over the dynasty?

They are both goats but only because they were together.

 

[crawhammer]

It never ceases to amaze me your lack of how football teams are built, why they win, and how the game is played. It shouldn't really. A lot of fans have rather shallow views of the game or just the ones being force fed them by "experts" and the media. It's not an easy game to grasp. So many moving parts. So many interactions It's so much easier to just try and jam it into a few easy labels and out of context clips. It's even easier to manipulate those labels and clips into convenient narratives.

The FACT is, that there is no other game where the relative success of any INDIVIDUAL is ao reliant on success of the other 10 guys on the field at that particular time, than football.

There WAS a time where the headline was always the "team" vs the "team". Then some marketing genius (probably at ESPN) decided it would be cooler to make it more about the individuals than the team and we got Brady vs Manning, etc. Two guys who never spent a DOWN on the field at the same time. Well, it is what it is, it obviously seems to work.....as a MARKETING strategy. But the GAME remains the same.

Now I don't want to make this about "demeaning" Brady's accomplishments. The best there ever was at the position. However YOU want to COMPLETELY ascribe the winning as solely being about the QB position to the degree that you can completely disregard the organization, coaches and the other 45 players on game day roster.

MPV (to mention another pet peeve) really doesn't have much meaning to me in the context of football. All it is, is the guy who has the best stats, and THOSE stats are completely reliant on how good 10 OTHER guys produced. WHY is this so hard to understand that I'm being forced to repeat the OBVIOUS again and again.

This IS NOT about who gets the credit, because EVERYONE needs to get the credit, its just the nature of the game. Just look at the 2 guys who YOU are trying to make this all about. Show me the quote where Bill ever ONCE takes credit for a SINGLE win. Show me the quote were Tom ever ONCE said, to the effect, this was all about me. Never happened. Why? Because unlike you, both THOSE 2 guys understood the nature of the game

************, it's like you didn't read my post, or disregarded what I said, or you think I'm lying.

Here...

That's NOT accurate. Everyone you mentioned is a factor. The question is how much of one. That's where it gets messy because the IBWTers can't stand Brady getting "too much" of the credit. When he's been a winner since day one and didn't stop for 22 seasons. While on the other hand you have everyone else including the head coach only winning when that one player is also there. So let's give credit where credit is due... the most valuable factor is Brady. Slot everyone else in there in descending order. That's it in a nutshell. And I'm repeating it because this ^ nonsense about completely disregarding everyone else besides Brady has been inaccurately stated about a 1000 times.

Now repeat yourself again. You wrote the same post twice already so you may as well do it again.

 

[crawhammer]

I want the best for the patriots so I am optimistic that every single move will work out.

My condolences for the last three seasons.

 

[Ring 6]

My condolences for the last three seasons.

Once again you prove you are a fake fan

 

[Ring 6]

************, it's like you didn't read my post, or disregarded what I said, or you think I'm lying.

Here...


Now repeat yourself again. You wrote the same post twice already so you may as well do it again.

You are arguing with yourself now

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I appreciate "you are what your record says you are" but last year I saw a highly competitive team that was just deficient in a few keys areas that couldn't be corrected. Or perhaps I should say that weren't corrected.

Edit: Also, was this not a playoff team last year but-for Jakobi's dumbass in Las Vegas?

All NFL teams could say the same thing. They’re “that close” to being 2-3 more wins better than their record. It just doesn’t work that way.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

When you become the most winningest franchise in the last 20 years, fans will expect a certain standard. I don't think most fans expect Super Bowls, but they at least expect a division title and/or a playoff win sometime soon. We're going on 4 years now without a division title, one playoff appearance and no playoff wins. Bill makes ALL the decisions, so there's no excuses why he can't deliver.

It’s the lack of future assets and core young players that makes me give Bill two thumbs down. I don’t expect them to be an instant contender, but I don’t see any reason for optimism this team won’t be stuck in neutral for as long he’s here. The team was never willing to do a rebuild despite having tradeable assets in 2020-21. Now they’re just stuck in the muck.