When did Brady, become Brady, and Bill become IBWT? Just an open discussion to see where people stand.

[ahmed]

Early success is a good indicator of the QB's potential IMO and that is one thing I always look for (Brady, Mahomes, Ben list goes on). Thought Brady was going to be special in 2003.

Never thought about BB...just at some point he became that.

 

[StrawHatPatriot]

I was never "in Bill we trust" but I always recognized Bill's strengths and greatness (attention to detail, adjustments, craftiness, etc) from day 1

I truly felt Tom's greatness from day 1 also - dude was a better decision maker and big-time performer than anyone. Dude was clinical and would make the right read and dissect defenses.

 

[farn]

man, you guys are tough

The moment Adam Vinatieris kick went through the uprights in Super Bowl 36 both their legacies were set in stone...

we won the effing Super Bowl!!!! that did it for me.

While I agree,

BRADY : I remember that long TD pass to Branch vs PIT. Thought to myself, these guys might start steamrolling ppl…

BB : Long established, there was this hopeless night game vs DEN. BB gets the long snapper to intentionally throw it towards the uprights for a safety. They come back to win. Another occasion : that STL game that seemed like mission impossible. Troy Brown at corner. Vinatieri throwing a TD. Master class.

 

[VectorPrime]

When his Mom named him Brady would be my guess.

They named him Tom.

 

[FCB02062]

Let's put this overrated narrative to rest.

Buffalo lost 4 Super Bowls in a row from 1990 to 1993.

SB 25 (loss to NYG)
371 yards of total offense
166 rushing yards
1 sack
0 turnovers
19 points
Lost by 1 point on a missed 47-yards FGA

SB 26 (loss to Washington)
283 yards of total offense
43 rushing yards
5 sacks
5 turnovers
24 points
Lost by 13 points

SB 27 (loss to Cowboys)
362 yards of total offense
108 rushing yards
4 sacks
9 turnovers
17 points
Lost by 35 points

SB 28 (loss to Cowboys)
314 yards of total offense
87 rushing yards
3 sacks
3 turnovers
13 points
Lost by 17 points

The Bills k-gun offense sucked in the Super Bowls. Jim Kelly was a complete disaster... 4 games, 2 TDs, 7 INTs, 3 FL, and 56.9 passer rating. Kelly and the k-gun offense had their best Super Bowl against Belichick's defense... most total yards, most rushing yards, fewest sacks (1), fewest turnovers (0), and merely lost by a missed FG. Buffalo had 17 turnovers in their other 3 SB losses where they were completely humiliated by the opposing defenses. So "mastermind" Bill actually shut down the Bills offense the least in those 4 games. The far more dominant defensive performances came from Washington and then Dallas twice.

great analysis

 

[Patstopia]

Brady became Brady and Bill became Bill went Bledsoe got hurt and the stark difference between the 2 QB's became apparent. Bledsoe was a lead footed behemoth who could throw the ball but lacked any mobility. Brady was not fast but quick, he saw the play and threw to the open man. He was the 2 second man. Play was run and 2 seconds later the ball was out. Bill ran the team to highlight the strengths they had. But it highlighted how a QB can turn a team into a winner or losser regardless of the rest of the team. I find a lot of similarities between Jones and Bledsoe, except Bledsoe didn't really make as many mental errors as Jones constantly does.

 

[Pats1971]

They named him Tom.

I was making jokes...

 

[Ian]

Let's put this overrated narrative to rest.

Man, your blind hatred of Bill is so ridiculous. Apparently, you're forgetting all the games we shut great teams down during a lot of key match-ups, including in the postseason when they shut down Peyton and a Colts team that had been averaging 40+ coming into that one. Or heck, even the Rams in the first match-up where they nearly won it. We were the first team to really slow them down, and I actually wrote at the time - and that game story is still on here somewhere - that given another shot, they would probably beat them.

And they did. And Belichick put that game plan together too, just, BTW. If we get blown out in that game, Brady probably doesn't win a shootout against Warner. I love the guy, but that wasn't his thing at the time.

The guy is an incredible coach, period. Wait until years from now when they start losing games frequently by a significant margin after he's gone, including games where they go down 22-0 and quit instead of shutting out the opponent in the second half and losing the game on a last second fumble.

I get it, Brady was/is amazing and his clutch play in key moments pushed them across the finish line in tight games. But to completely discredit Bill the way you do over and over is just beyond disingenuous. I'm not a massive Bill homer, but I have eyes and the ability to be realistic and appreciate both sides.

Unfortunately, you'll realize how good he was eventually. As I've told others, that day will be here sooner than you think.

 

[Ian]

Let's put this overrated narrative to rest.

Buffalo lost 4 Super Bowls in a row from 1990 to 1993.

SB 25 (loss to NYG)
371 yards of total offense
166 rushing yards
1 sack
0 turnovers
19 points
Lost by 1 point on a missed 47-yards FGA

SB 26 (loss to Washington)
283 yards of total offense
43 rushing yards
5 sacks
5 turnovers
24 points
Lost by 13 points

SB 27 (loss to Cowboys)
362 yards of total offense
108 rushing yards
4 sacks
9 turnovers
17 points
Lost by 35 points

SB 28 (loss to Cowboys)
314 yards of total offense
87 rushing yards
3 sacks
3 turnovers
13 points
Lost by 17 points

The Bills k-gun offense sucked in the Super Bowls. Jim Kelly was a complete disaster... 4 games, 2 TDs, 7 INTs, 3 FL, and 56.9 passer rating. Kelly and the k-gun offense had their best Super Bowl against Belichick's defense... most total yards, most rushing yards, fewest sacks (1), fewest turnovers (0), and merely lost by a missed FG. Buffalo had 17 turnovers in their other 3 SB losses where they were completely humiliated by the opposing defenses. So "mastermind" Bill actually shut down the Bills offense the least in those 4 games. The far more dominant defensive performances came from Washington and then Dallas twice.

And BTW - the league put that game plan in the Hall of Fame. Pretty sure some extremely intelligent people took a look at it and felt it wasn't quite as overrated as you're making it out to be. But to further drive this home, I think you're forgetting the Giants also didn't exactly have a high-powered offense, so the Giants winning that game was essentially the equivalent of the Patriots beating the Rams.

 

[Steve102]

Man, your blind hatred of Bill is so ridiculous. Apparently, you're forgetting all the games we shut great teams down during a lot of key match-ups, including in the postseason when they shut down Peyton and a Colts team that had been averaging 40+ coming into that one. Or heck, even the Rams in the first match-up where they nearly won it. We were the first team to really slow them down, and I actually wrote at the time - and that game story is still on here somewhere - that given another shot, they would probably beat them.

And they did. And Belichick put that game plan together too, just, BTW. If we get blown out in that game, Brady probably doesn't win a shootout against Warner. I love the guy, but that wasn't his thing at the time.

The guy is an incredible coach, period. Wait until years from now when they start losing games frequently by a significant margin after he's gone, including games where they go down 22-0 and quit instead of shutting out the opponent in the second half and losing the game on a last second fumble.

I get it, Brady was/is amazing and his clutch play in key moments pushed them across the finish line in tight games. But to completely discredit Bill the way you do over and over is just beyond disingenuous. I'm not a massive Bill homer, but I have eyes and the ability to be realistic and appreciate both sides.

Unfortunately, you'll realize how good he was eventually. As I've told others, that day will be here sooner than you think.

"let's put this narrative to rest" got him another mute. I didn't need to read any further. @venecol said it best, the guy can't help himself. Bill's gameplan vs. Manning was brilliant. Same vs. the Rams, where he completely undressed Martz. It was all-time great coaching game plan. Martz did himself zero favors, arrogantly played right into Bill's hands. The intentional safety vs. Denver is another one. Perhaps my favorite is staring down Pete Carroll and not calling time out when everyone is screaming in the headset for him to call one. Ice in his veins. The man was considered a brilliant defensive mind long before he was getting GOAT consideration. Anyone who shuts that down is just bitter because Bill played the odds with Brady, like he did with every other player prior to. Brady just proved to be a bit more GOATy than everyone else.

 

[upstater1]

He didnt throw 2 picks vs carolina.

Thanks for correcting me. I don't know why I thought that

 

[Ian]

"let's put this narrative to rest" got him another mute.

So ridiculous. Again, I get why people are still mad at Bill over the Brady thing. But to try and completely discredit what he did over 20-years and act like Bill was just a role player and rode Brady's coattails is just so mind-numbingly naive and goes way too far.

 

[Pat the Pats Fan]

And BTW - the league put that game plan in the Hall of Fame. Pretty sure some extremely intelligent people took a look at it and felt it wasn't quite as overrated as you're making it out to be. But to further drive this home, I think you're forgetting the Giants also didn't exactly have a high-powered offense, so the Giants winning that game was essentially the equivalent of the Patriots beating the Rams.

Giants won that game because of the game plan. They shortened the game by letting the bills run. Of the 4 SBs the bills lost, that one had the fewest passing yards. The giants took away the Bills quick strike ability.

 

[upstater1]

"let's put this narrative to rest" got him another mute. I didn't need to read any further. @venecol said it best, the guy can't help himself. Bill's gameplan vs. Manning was brilliant. Same vs. the Rams, where he completely undressed Martz. It was all-time great coaching game plan. Martz did himself zero favors, arrogantly played right into Bill's hands. The intentional safety vs. Denver is another one. Perhaps my favorite is staring down Pete Carroll and not calling time out when everyone is screaming in the headset for him to call one. Ice in his veins. The man was considered a brilliant defensive mind long before he was getting GOAT consideration. Anyone who shuts that down is just bitter because Bill played the odds with Brady, like he did with every other player prior to. Brady just proved to be a bit more GOATy than everyone else.

Forcing Pete Carroll into a passing play was the most brilliant thing I've ever seen on a football field. In no other sport is such a thing even possible. There is no stoppage of play where the clock runs and the opposing coach can play chess in real time. The closest is soccer but soccer coaches don't orchestrate plays, only tactics.

I wonder if Belichick knew they were going to that pass play late and he knew he could force Carroll into passing (most fans don't know that given the tie, Carroll had to pass). Carroll's only options were run it 3 times and watch the clock expire, or run it twice, pass it once, then run it again. He could not run it over and over and over. There wasn't enough time for that.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

The Bills k-gun offense sucked in the Super Bowls. Jim Kelly was a complete disaster... 4 games, 2 TDs, 7 INTs, 3 FL, and 56.9 passer rating. Kelly and the k-gun offense had their best Super Bowl against Belichick's defense... most total yards, most rushing yards, fewest sacks (1), fewest turnovers (0), and merely lost by a missed FG. Buffalo had 17 turnovers in their other 3 SB losses where they were completely humiliated by the opposing defenses. So "mastermind" Bill actually shut down the Bills offense the least in those 4 games. The far more dominant defensive performances came from Washington and then Dallas twice.

As others have said, you have zero idea what you are talking about. Belichick's game plan vs the Bills was to deliberately allow Thurman Thomas to run for 200 yards so that they wouldn't pass the ball 50 times in the game - this has been verified by Carl Banks of the Giants and others. They were playing primarily nickel and employed a punishing style defense that if Kelly threw the ball their receivers were going to get popped big time. NYG simply didn't have the weapons to compete with Jim Kelly, Andre Reed, etc. In fact the Giants offense in 1990 was very similar to NE's offense in 2001.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Early success is a good indicator of the QB's potential IMO and that is one thing I always look for (Brady, Mahomes, Ben list goes on). Thought Brady was going to be special in 2003.

Never thought about BB...just at some point he became that.

Brady
-My Hero: Snow Bowl
-My God: SB36

BB
-My Hero: SB36
-My God: SB38

 

[Pat the Pats Fan]

SB 36 run will always be my favorite. 03-04 were my favorite years that solidified both B&B as the best of all time. I loved whenever the defense was on the field in 03-04 and that was Bill. And it seemed that Brady took advantage of every opportunity the defense gave him. Two years, two SBs.

 

[1960Pats]

So ridiculous. Again, I get why people are still mad at Bill over the Brady thing. But to try and completely discredit what he did over 20-years and act like Bill was just a role player and rode Brady's coattails is just so mind-numbingly naive and goes way too far.

Bill was the coach and Brady was the QB. That alone made Brady more valuable. Too bad that Kraft fell for the same bs as many fans here did.

For me, ranking coaches over players is going too far. It's all about the players on the field, not the pencil pushers on the sideline.

Coaching football has been roughly the same for 100 years and it's only the top players that win, with or without top coaches.

 

[Steve102]

Forcing Pete Carroll into a passing play was the most brilliant thing I've ever seen on a football field. In no other sport is such a thing even possible. There is no stoppage of play where the clock runs and the opposing coach can play chess in real time. The closest is soccer but soccer coaches don't orchestrate plays, only tactics.

I wonder if Belichick knew they were going to that pass play late and he knew he could force Carroll into passing (most fans don't know that given the tie, Carroll had to pass). Carroll's only options were run it 3 times and watch the clock expire, or run it twice, pass it once, then run it again. He could not run it over and over and over. There wasn't enough time for that.

Here's one... go back to 10/27/97. Monday nighter Pats home vs Green Bay. To start the 3rd, the Pats drove the GB 1 yard line. Pete handed the ball off to Martin once for no gain, then threw the ball 3 times, incomplete to Byers, Coates and Byers. GB drove 99 yards to essentially put the game away, keeping the ball for all but the final 15 seconds on the third quarter. On that roster for NE was HoFer Curtis Martin, RB Dave Meggett, FB Sam Gash (who was considered the best FB in the league during his career) WRs Shawn Jefferson, Terry Glenn, Troy Brown, Vincent Brisby, and TE Ben Coates. We all would love those weapons now.

My point is that Pete threw the ball three times when he could have pounded it with Martin, with Gash as lead blocker, play action with Meggett, or even snuck with Bledsoe. He had a propensity for passing on the goal line. My guess is Bill knew this exact historic situation, and, based on what we saw in "Do Your Job", knew with the personnel they had on the field, they were passing.

Green Bay Packers at New England Patriots - October 27th, 1997 | Pro-Football-Reference.com

 

[crawhammer]

Man, your blind hatred of Bill is so ridiculous. Apparently, you're forgetting all the games we shut great teams down during a lot of key match-ups, including in the postseason when they shut down Peyton and a Colts team that had been averaging 40+ coming into that one. Or heck, even the Rams in the first match-up where they nearly won it and I actually wrote at the time - and that game story is still on here somewhere - that given another shot, they would probably beat them.

And they did. And Belichick put that game plan together too, just, BTW. If we get blown out in that game, Brady probably doesn't win a shootout against Warner. I love the guy, but that wasn't his thing at the time.

The guy is an incredible coach, period. Wait until years from now when they start losing games frequently by a significant margin after he's gone, including games where they go down 22-0 and quit instead of shutting out the opponent in the second half and losing the game on a last second fumble.

I get it, Brady was/is amazing and his clutch play in key moments pushed them across the finish line in tight games. But to completely discredit Bill the way you do over and over is just beyond disingenuous. I'm not a massive Bill homer, but I have eyes and the ability to be realistic and appreciate both sides.

Unfortunately, you'll realize how good he was eventually. As I've told others, that day will be here sooner than you think.

Firstly I was talking about one specific thing... that Belichick was the only DC who could figure out how to slow down the k-gun offense. It's an overstated narrative because three other successive DC's obliterated the k-gun offense in the Super Bowl (put their game plans in the HOF too!... but that would have been stupid once everyone realized the k-gun offense was inept in SB level competition). As I normally do, I tacked on some numbers to back up my argument. That's it. That's all I was talking about in that post.

You're replying with a passionate defense of Bill's time with New England as the HC, which has nothing to do with what I was talking about. Bill's tenure with New England during the dynasty seasons will be legendary. The team had unprecedented success for two decades. It puts Bill on the Mount Rushmore of head coaches.

However, it's just a matter of fact that the only success he's had as a head coach has been with Tom Brady as his quarterback. Again, it doesn't mean he's a bum, and it doesn't take away any significant contributions he made to the Patriots Dynasty, but without Brady he has a losing record as a head coach, he has never won a division title, and he's 1-2 in the postseason. Unfortunately for Belichick that's part of his legacy too.

Not that he really needed it but Brady validated his legacy further by winning a Super Bowl with another HC. And fair or not, people are looking at Belichick to see if he can counter Brady's achievement with a similar one. If Belichick falls short of the expectation then it's going to be used against him. It is what it is.