Some OL chatter

[p8ryts]

What was I wrong about?

With the starters in there from game three on, Mac has been sacked three times in three games against some of the toughest defensive fronts in football. Mac sucks, that has nothing to do with the offensive line.

A competent QB could help the OL. Injuries doomed any cohesion.

 

[Wozzy]

A competent QB could help the OL. Injuries doomed any cohesion.

The problem falls squarely on the QB's inability to make plays in the passing game.

Opponents know the Pats want to run, so they load the box and force Mac Jones to beat them... he can't.

Start anyone but Mac Jones next week.

 

[State]

What was I wrong about?

Everything.

 

[Wozzy]

Everything.

You've got nothing... so leave it vague.

 

[State]

Yeah, I’m wrong to have said that. But your confidence about the OL situation is certainly misplaced.

I lost confidence last year the foolish decision to swap Wynn and Brown. And the drafting, which you felt good about, is another black mark.

Sow, for example, might be a starting level RT. But not this year. Too much of a learning curve.

 

[p8ryts]

Yeah, I’m wrong to have said that. But your confidence about the OL situation is certainly misplaced.

I lost confidence last year the foolish decision to swap Wynn and Brown. And the drafting, which you felt good about, is another black mark.

Sow, for example, might be a starting level RT. But not this year. Too much of a learning curve.

I thiink BB thought McDermott would be an exceptable fall back. I wish we could bring him back.

 

[mgteich]

I thiink BB thought McDermott would be an exceptable fall back. I wish we could bring him back.

I think Bill expected Reiff to start and McDermott to be the backup, while developing Sow.

Also, Bill misjudged Anderson, thinking him to be a swing OT instead of a backup LT.
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LEFT TACKLE
Belichick was right to depend on Brown and Anderson, with the option of trading for a veteran if necessary. But, yes, we will need a starter in 2024/

RIGHT TACKLE
I think almost all of us agree. Bill was wrong to count on McDermott and Reiff. That simply wasn't enough, especially since there was no guarantees at LT.

GUARDS
Personally, I think that we did very well by drafting Sow, Mafi and Andrews. Injuries have absolutely killed the OL. They need a month of playing together. If Bill had found a RT, Sow could be the OG that he is, and a good prospect in either OG spot. Sow should have been an OG from the start. Mafi isn't quite ready, which is fine. We expected him t compete with Hines, and MAYBE make the team.

COACHING
Are we allowed to criticize Klemm yet? Or he is wearing a red shirt, similar to Brown. I guess that we need to wait until we have an OL that plays together for 3 weeks, and yes, Bill should trade for a veteran RT who could be expected to play for 2-3 years.

 

[State]

Also, Bill misjudged Anderson, thinking him to be a swing OT instead of a backup LT.

Bingo. And include Klemm and the inept Billy Yates, promoted for reasons…I’ll stop there.

 

[captain stone]

I think Bill expected Reiff to start and McDermott to be the backup, while developing Sow.

Also, Bill misjudged Anderson, thinking him to be a swing OT instead of a backup LT.
=======================
LEFT TACKLE
Belichick was right to depend on Brown and Anderson, with the option of trading for a veteran if necessary. But, yes, we will need a starter in 2024/

RIGHT TACKLE
I think almost all of us agree. Bill was wrong to count on McDermott and Reiff. That simply wasn't enough, especially since there was no guarantees at LT.

GUARDS
Personally, I think that we did very well by drafting Sow, Mafi and Andrews. Injuries have absolutely killed the OL. They need a month of playing together. If Bill had found a RT, Sow could be the OG that he is, and a good prospect in either OG spot. Sow should have been an OG from the start. Mafi isn't quite ready, which is fine. We expected him t compete with Hines, and MAYBE make the team.

COACHING
Are we allowed to criticize Klemm yet? Or he is wearing a red shirt, similar to Brown. I guess that we need to wait until we have an OL that plays together for 3 weeks, and yes, Bill should trade for a veteran RT who could be expected to play for 2-3 years.

Generally agree with everything except the bolded. If Notgoat wanted an OLineman at 107 and was committed to Blob Brown at LT, then he should've drafted Dawand Jones there... Heck, Jake the Newest Fake wasn't even the best dam Center available anyway!

 

[mgteich]

Generally agree with everything except the bolded. If Notgoat wanted an OLineman at 107 and was committed to Blob Brown at LT, then he should've drafted Dawand Jones there... Heck, Jake the Newest Fake wasn't even the best dam Center available anyway!

Lots of folks missed by not drafting Dewand. Looking back, lots of teams would have drafted in the 3rd round instead of the 4th where he was drafted.

Teams considered him an extremely risky pick. He was a 2-year starter with weight issues who refused to weigh in. Perhaps Belichick didn't want another player with weight issues.

In any case, SURE, we should have drafted Dewand at 107.
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With regard to Andrews, we really need a center for the future. Our starter plays very well, but we certainly need a backup. Obviously, Bill didn't have faith in the future of Russey or Ferentz. He saw the man he wanted and drafted him. Perhaps he would have been available a round later, but perhaps not. In any case, I would have fine with Dewand at 107 and Andrews at 117 (a small risk of losing out on Andrews).

Basically, Bill would have ended up with Dewand as RT prospect instead of Sow.

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

What was I wrong about?

the offense line quality and roster quality

With the starters in there from game three on, Mac has been sacked three times in three games against some of the toughest defensive fronts in football. Mac sucks, that has nothing to do with the offensive line.

agree

 

[upstater1]

A competent QB could help the OL. Injuries doomed any cohesion.

Agree. Say what you want about injuries and the problems at LG and RT, but the 3 other guys at LT, C, and RG have success under their belts in this league and know how to play their positions. They went into the game together yesterday. Yes, the LG position is manned by a rookie, but you have enough talent at those 4 positions to do much much better than they're doing. But apparently we're to believe that these 3 have forgotten how to play.

 

[upstater1]

Lots of folks missed by not drafting Dewand. Looking back, lots of teams would have drafted in the 3rd round instead of the 4th where he was drafted.

Teams considered him an extremely risky pick. He was a 2-year starter with weight issues who refused to weigh in. Perhaps Belichick didn't want another player with weight issues.

In any case, SURE, we should have drafted Dewand at 107.
=============================
With regard to Andrews, we really need a center for the future. Our starter plays very well, but we certainly need a backup. Obviously, Bill didn't have faith in the future of Russey or Ferentz. He saw the man he wanted and drafted him. Perhaps he would have been available a round later, but perhaps not. In any case, I would have fine with Dewand at 107 and Andrews at 117 (a small risk of losing out on Andrews).

Basically, Bill would have ended up with Dewand as RT prospect instead of Sow.

I think we'd miss out on Andrews or Mapu with Dawand.

Mapu, the Patriots are on record as trying to trade back because they knew they were reaching there. But he was clearly a guy they wanted over Andrews.

I read an article on Andrews that said other teams considered him the top C prospect and they were going to get him in the 4th. This was intel the Patriots knew about.

 

[mgteich]

I think we'd miss out on Andrews or Mapu with Dawand.

Mapu, the Patriots are on record as trying to trade back because they knew they were reaching there. But he was clearly a guy they wanted over Andrews.

I read an article on Andrews that said other teams considered him the top C prospect and they were going to get him in the 4th. This was intel the Patriots knew about.

perhaps

In any case, Bill wasn't willing to wait 10 picks and hope that Andrews was there at 117.

 

[State]

Lots of folks missed by not drafting Dewand.

Did any of them have the problems we did last season at RT?

 

[State]

Evan Lazar’s notes from the Saints game bears a careful read, point #3:

Game Observations: Eight Takeaways From the Patriots Frustrating Loss to the Saints in Week 5

The Patriots have lost back-to-back games following a disappointing loss to the Saints at Gillette Stadium on Sunday.

www.patriots.com

In short a lack of talent, poor development, and schematic issues. He doesn’t bring it up, but in one of the running plays they had LT Trent Briwn pulling, requiring C David Andrews to roll out to get his end guy.

It failed. It had failure written all over it.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Here's a very interesting stat for those who have been harping on the OL protection in defense of Mac Jones:

The Protection Rate for Mac Jones on passes hasn't changed that much from 2021, his rookie season to 2023, this year.

In 2023 the Patriots OL protection rate for Mac Jones sits at 80.4% after 5 games.
In 2022 the protection rate was 81.7%.
In 2021 the protection rate was 81.8%.

OL Stat source: Mac Jones Stats & Fantasy Ranking - PlayerProfiler

Protection Rate is defined as percentage of dropbacks where the QB was hurried and forced to throw the football in under 3.0 seconds.

So that's only a 1% dip in OL protection rate. So is the OL's pass blocking really as bad as people are making it out to be or are we just giving Jones more of an excuse than he really deserves?

Maybe Mac Jones has just developed bad habits in the pocket that carried over from his 2nd year under Patricia that is preventing him from standing tall in the pocket and making throws with composure? I keep seeing the "deer in headlights" look from Mac whenever he feels the slightest of pressure.

We also notice that Mac Jones adjusted yards per attempt keeps getting lower year after year. AYA gives bonuses for TD passes and penalties for INTs.

This downward trend in Mac's length of passes is something I've commented on before but it's eye opening to see the metrics.

In 2023 Jones AYA is 5.3, in 2022 5.8, and in 2021 it was a whopping 6.7.

Although the above website only covers passing stats, I do feel it is significant that the Patriots run game seems to be in serious decline this year and that also can be attributed to the OL.

Maybe it's the loss of the running game that actually hurts this offense the most. And Mac Jones inept turnovers when our offense is already struggling just doesn't help matters at all.

 

[SteveBsFan]

Here's a very interesting stat for those who have been harping on the OL protection in defense of Mac Jones:

The Protection Rate for Mac Jones on passes hasn't changed that much from 2021, his rookie season to 2023, this year.

In 2023 the Patriots OL protection rate for Mac Jones sits at 80.4% after 5 games.
In 2022 the protection rate was 81.7%.
In 2021 the protection rate was 81.8%.

OL Stat source: Mac Jones Stats & Fantasy Ranking - PlayerProfiler

Protection Rate is defined as percentage of dropbacks where the QB was hurried and forced to throw the football in under 3.0 seconds.

So that's only a 1% dip in OL protection rate. So is the OL's pass blocking really as bad as people are making it out to be or are we just giving Jones more of an excuse than he really deserves

People also seem to forget how quickly he fell off a cliff his rookie year.

If not for beating of the super lowly Jags, I believe we’re looking at a 60ish rating, more int than td, and around 180 yards a game with a pretty low completion percentage (actual numbers are on my computer which I’m not at)

At the time I assumed it was because of the rookie cliff - and maybe it was - but he also was just not very good last year either.

I know most agree with that but most just blame Matt and move on. But like this year and the end of his rookie year, his accuracy seemed to drop.

Sure he still had a respectable completion percentage but his misses were ugly and his completions were still generally off the line. So even when he found someone open, he’d throw behind them forcing them to stop and get tackled.

I generally ended up buying into the Matt thing and assumed he would be much better with two solid TE and a new OC. And while I’m not trying to defend Patricia - I don’t think he was the best choice by any stretch of the imagination- I’m just realizing Mac is just good against terrible teams, average against average, and terrible against good.

 

[Mack Herron]

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

yes it was all patricia's fault that the offense, mac and the o-line sucked

apologizes to patricia, he has actually done very well compared to some experienced offense coaches like klemm and bob