Some OL chatter

[VJCPatriot]

I generally ended up buying into the Matt thing and assumed he would be much better with two solid TE and a new OC. And while I’m not trying to defend Patricia - I don’t think he was the best choice by any stretch of the imagination- I’m just realizing Mac is just good against terrible teams, average against average, and terrible against good.

This is the bottom line. The measurement for protection rate sets the standard at 3.0 seconds to deliver the ball without being pressured or tackled. He's still getting that protection over 80% of the time. So if Mac Jones can't get the ball out consistently in under the 3.0 seconds mark maybe he just doesn't have what it takes to be an NFL starter.

That's 1 Mississippi, 2 Mississippi, 3 Mississippi. Ball needs to be OUT!

You need to do the film room prep and know exactly what is happening pre-snap so you already know what the defense is doing and where you might need to go with the ball, as the ball is snapped the QB needs to read quickly how the play is developing, who's open, if he needs to check down from the primary target, etc.

Mac Jones needs to be more decisive with his throws and anticipate better because he certainly doesn't have some kind of rocket arm where he can throw across the grain. We saw him get punished multiple times by throwing floaters that got picked off by the defense.

 

[VrabelJr]

Some random thoughts:

1) Musical chairs at guard and lackluster play at the position overall is probably the biggest issue on the OL. Bad guard play makes life hard for everyone. I understand why we let Thuney walk but it's not hard to imagine how much better we would be with him. Good guards make both the guys next to them better.

2) If Mike Onwenu is injured then he needs to be benched until he's 100% and has lost 10-20 pounds. He just doesn't look like himself and I'd rather have continuity on the line than 50% of our best OL player

 

[JarOfMayo51]

If Zappe/Grier play substantially better than Mac, watch as the O-Line performs miraculously better than before.

i think its just a vicious cycle at this point

I think the O Line sucks and constantly lets pressure thru, but not on every play... but Mac is so F'ed in his head and his confidence is completely shattered. 60% of the time he's running for his life for real, the other 40% he's feeling pressure that's not there. He's broken.

really hard to look at any part of this offense and be happy with it, except maybe Hunter Henry and Demario Douglas? Some of these guys look like they're stealing money

 

[doesntmatter1]

i think its just a vicious cycle at this point

I think the O Line sucks and constantly lets pressure thru, but not on every play... but Mac is so F'ed in his head and his confidence is completely shattered. 60% of the time he's running for his life for real, the other 40% he's feeling pressure that's not there. He's broken.

really hard to look at any part of this offense and be happy with it, except maybe Hunter Henry and Demario Douglas? Some of these guys look like they're stealing money

Mac is definitely broken. The line looks horrible 90% of the time, but somehow blocks much better when Zappe plays(not preseason). That discrepancy is on Mac. Mac makes check downs and screens harder than they should be.

 

[rkarp1]

Some random thoughts:

1) Musical chairs at guard and lackluster play at the position overall is probably the biggest issue on the OL. Bad guard play makes life hard for everyone. I understand why we let Thuney walk but it's not hard to imagine how much better we would be with him. Good guards make both the guys next to them better.

2) If Mike Onwenu is injured then he needs to be benched until he's 100% and has lost 10-20 pounds. He just doesn't look like himself and I'd rather have continuity on the line than 50% of our best OL player

to think the team let Thuney, Shaq and Karras leave. and used a #1 for an OG.

 

[VrabelJr]

to think the team let Thuney, Shaq and Karras leave. and used a #1 for an OG.

We really took having an awesome OL for the previous 8-10 years for granted. Imagine that a guy like Karras was a three position backup. That's how insanely good our OL was. That said, $16, $12, and $6 million per year respectively for those guys is a lot. Shaq was getting streaky and Karras is most effective at Center where we didn't have a need. Thuney would have been worth it though.

 

[RIpats88]

No, it wasn’t. Remember the dumpster fire at RT? Until we inserted a practice squad player from the Jets.

But luckily Belichick took care of it in the draft. Wait, we got a kicker instead.

Well, Vlad Lowe looks the part. But the last three games he’s given up as many pressures as there are chocolate thin mints in a Girl Scouts cookie box.

And the kicker we took is 50% on field goals...

 

[JarOfMayo51]

And the kicker we took is 50% on field goals...

not all of them have been on him

Cardona has had a lot of bad snaps this year, the operation has been very inconsistent

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

And the kicker we took is 50% on field goals...

the homers praised this pick but drafting special teams in round 4 with holes on your roster is ****

 

[RIpats88]

not all of them have been on him

Cardona has had a lot of bad snaps this year, the operation has been very inconsistent

Oh I agree. But when you invest so much in special teams as Bill does to have the 32nd ranked special teams is abysmal

 

[rkarp1]

Onwenu has had pass rushers count against him when Mac moves right into the path of the rusher. Onwenu has had guys locked down and yet they count against him. I can show you examples where that has happened. Onwenu had a false start last week, but when they showed his holding call on replay, it wasn't a hold. And the announcer noted it.

These 3 are the same guys.

Mafi is learning. He looks good. He looks better than Onwenu did as a rookie. Of course that's because Onwenu was out of position at LG, but we don't know what Mafi excels at. Sow had a concussion. Lowe, as I said, is better than McDermott. All I'm saying anyway is that comparing this OL to last year's, one would think the players are different, and they're not with the exception of Lowe.

I am not saying that individually these OL do not have talent. they do. but collectively, they have been horrible in both pass pro and run blocking.
We saw the Saints send 4 DL against the Pats 5 OL, and repeatedly win with simple stunts. we saw Brown grabbing at air in both pass pro and run blocking. we saw the same with Lowe.
we saw DL on the QB in a matter of a second or two.
the QB was under pressure about 50% of his drop backs.
the Pats staff made no adjustments. no TE chip blocks. no FB. no RB staying in to help block.
Saints had unblocked hits on the QB

 

[upstater1]

I am not saying that individually these OL do not have talent. they do. but collectively, they have been horrible in both pass pro and run blocking.
We saw the Saints send 4 DL against the Pats 5 OL, and repeatedly win with simple stunts. we saw Brown grabbing at air in both pass pro and run blocking. we saw the same with Lowe.
we saw DL on the QB in a matter of a second or two.
the QB was under pressure about 50% of his drop backs.
the Pats staff made no adjustments. no TE chip blocks. no FB. no RB staying in to help block.
Saints had unblocked hits on the QB

I think the point here is that with the people already there we don't need a massive revamp. They could use more consistency, of course, especially given the constant moving around because of injuries.

But I do think this falls on the QB himself mostly. I already mentioned how he curls out right into the outside edge rush multiple times. He runs right into the path of a rusher who is already locked down as we saw last week. I've defended Brown in another post for "grabbing at air" because we are now taking 9 step drops and there is no way Brown can hang with an edge rusher 5-10 yards downfield. It's beyond him. That's not what we have him for. I did at the same time criticize him for the inside move he blew on run blocking.

So there are OL errors, and we always see OL errors even in the best of times on offense, BUT the repeated lack of a QB commanding the pocket presents huge issues for the entire OL. You can't have a QB uncomfortable in every spot, unwilling to step into the pocket, a guy who CANNOT hurt you when you blitz because he will always cower and throw off his back foot when you come within 3 yards of him. Every defense knows that if you breathe on him, he will do something stupid, and that only encourages them to get a semblance of pressure on him. He's not going to step up into the pocket and reset, so by all means, come at him from the edge. He's not willing to stand in there, so bull rush your guy even if you don't get a hand (or anywhere near) the QB.

QBs always make their OLs. I'm not asking for Tom Brady here. I'm asking for a Bailey Zappe with an NFL average level of accuracy/arm ability.

 

[turkeyneck]

Oh I agree. But when you invest so much in special teams as Bill does to have the 32nd ranked special teams is abysmal

Achord has to join Troy Brown and Klemm on the list of suspect coaching.

 

[archstanton543]

Achord has to join Troy Brown and Klemm on the list of suspect coaching.

I still don't know why he has a job after last year and running our former punter out of town because he didn't want to do squats or whatever.

 

[upstater1]

to think the team let Thuney, Shaq and Karras leave. and used a #1 for an OG.

Thuney was a mistake.

Why are we talking about Shaq and Karras?

They are horrible. I mean, ask a Cincy fan about Karras. What a disaster.

Here's someone who is 10x better than both: Hjalte Froholdt.

 

[Pats1971]

i think its just a vicious cycle at this point

I think the O Line sucks and constantly lets pressure thru, but not on every play... but Mac is so F'ed in his head and his confidence is completely shattered. 60% of the time he's running for his life for real, the other 40% he's feeling pressure that's not there. He's broken.

really hard to look at any part of this offense and be happy with it, except maybe Hunter Henry and Demario Douglas? Some of these guys look like they're stealing money

Then he might not be mentally strong enough to be an NFl QB.

 

[Pats1971]

I think the point here is that with the people already there we don't need a massive revamp. They could use more consistency, of course, especially given the constant moving around because of injuries.

But I do think this falls on the QB himself mostly. I already mentioned how he curls out right into the outside edge rush multiple times. He runs right into the path of a rusher who is already locked down as we saw last week. I've defended Brown in another post for "grabbing at air" because we are now taking 9 step drops and there is no way Brown can hang with an edge rusher 5-10 yards downfield. It's beyond him. That's not what we have him for. I did at the same time criticize him for the inside move he blew on run blocking.

So there are OL errors, and we always see OL errors even in the best of times on offense, BUT the repeated lack of a QB commanding the pocket presents huge issues for the entire OL. You can't have a QB uncomfortable in every spot, unwilling to step into the pocket, a guy who CANNOT hurt you when you blitz because he will always cower and throw off his back foot when you come within 3 yards of him. Every defense knows that if you breathe on him, he will do something stupid, and that only encourages them to get a semblance of pressure on him. He's not going to step up into the pocket and reset, so by all means, come at him from the edge. He's not willing to stand in there, so bull rush your guy even if you don't get a hand (or anywhere near) the QB.

QBs always make their OLs. I'm not asking for Tom Brady here. I'm asking for a Bailey Zappe with an NFL average level of accuracy/arm ability.

Great post., Fans always assume that Qb pressure and sacks are 100 percent Oline. Its not. If you ever seen young QB's, rookies, etc, they always get sacked a lot. This also does not have anything to do with a running Qb being better at avoiding sacks, they are not, in facts a lot of running QB's take way more sacks than they should. Its about pre snap reads, setting protections, schemes, knowing where guys will be, changing routes at the line, and.........Poise. Its also about knowing where the QB will be. Olineman hate to block for guys that run all over the place, because you have to basically block for an extended period of time. QB's that make decisive reads, quick throws, and set protections, make an Olineman's job much easier.

 

[mgteich]

Oh I agree. But when you invest so much in special teams as Bill does to have the 32nd ranked special teams is abysmal

ST coaching has needed upgrade for a couple of years

 

[mgteich]

Achord has to join Troy Brown and Klemm on the list of suspect coaching.

I'm officially giving Klemm a pass because of the injuries. Let's see where we are when we have an OL who has played together for 6 games.

 

[turkeyneck]

I'm officially giving Klemm a pass because of the injuries. Let's see where we are when we have an OL who has played together for 6 games.

I've been inclined to do the same but if I watch individual OL to see if their personal technique is improving, I'm not seeing it. Scar used to really focus on this with the idea that if you're being personally overwhelmed due to poor technique you'll have a hard time integrating into the larger OL scheme. One example: we stink at interior runs. Watch OG pad level. Is there any drive or are the guards being stood up at contact?