Brady vs. Belichick: The Final Poll

[Wozzy]

I mean the poll is >70% YES, so yea pretty obvious how the forum feels about this now that people have FINALLY opened their eyes to Bill's utter incompetence in his latter years.

At one point a large majority of people thought Milli Vanilli was the most talented pop group in the world.

People thought the Pet Rock was a good idea to invest in... people are idiots... especially in large groups.

 

[venecol]

Fans are largely morons when it comes to NFL finances and team building.

There is a salary cap, and it plays heavily into how rosters are built. There was a cost associated with playing in four Super Bowls and winning three of them from 2014-2019, and Tom certainly did his part and showed extraordinary leadership by taking less money, by taking a series of one year incentive based extensions so the team could foot the cap bill the subsequent season.

This wasn't a case of BB being cheap, it was an agreed upon decision by the player and organization to manipulate the salary cap so they could build a hyper talented roster... and it worked. You don't play in 4 Super Bowls in 5 years unless you're really talented everywhere and the last time that happened was the early 2000"s when Tom was paid like a 6th round rookie... that wasn't coincidence.

Players have to sign contracts, they're not slaves, it's a two way street.

Tom insisted on becoming a free agent because the gas was leaving the tank in New England, because his wife wanted to live closer to home in Florida, and frankly he was probably burn't out. They offered him the best they could offer at the end and the deal sucked, the team was broke and the roster was aged out... there was zero money for veteran weapons and players.

Tom was a free agent, he chose to leave. Boiling this situation down to "BB let the GOAT leave over a few dollars" is nonsense... fans are largely clueless about the salary cap... it exists, it's real.

Cool story bro. Except you have Mahomes, one of the highest paid QBs, yet they keep on winning in KC. How do they do it? Is their a magical way to handle the cap (it's crap) that no one in NE is able to figure out? More nonsense from you.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

Garbage. By who... Wickersham?

Brady signed a new extension every year extending his stay in NE for another year. Players can negotiate, they can hold out if they don't like their contract, Tom had all the leverage, he was the best QB in the NFL. This notion that he was a slave is straight nonsense.

Moreover, sht changes... Giselle was done with the NFL and wanted a tropical climate. She didn't need the money or hassle.

Curran

 

[venecol]

Fans are largely morons when it comes to NFL finances and team building.

Signed - NFL Fan

 

[Wozzy]

Cool story bro. Except you have Mahomes, one of the highest paid QBs, yet they keep on winning in KC. How do they do it? Is their a magical way to handle the cap (it's crap) that no one in NE is able to figure out? More nonsense from you.

Cool story bro... like I said, fans don't understand football finances or team building.

Mahomes didn't sign his contract until 2020. Guess what the Chiefs did? The first two years of that contract (2020, 2021) they pushed the majority of his cap debt down the road. It doesn't mean that money disappears, it means it accrues.

What did the Chiefs do in 2022 when Mahomes first big cap hit was due, oh yeah, they traded Tyreek Hill and signed cheaper offensive linemen.

Here's Mahome's cap hits on his new contract and how they increase:

2020: 5.3M
2021: 7.4M
2022: 35.8M
2023: 37.1M
2024: 57.4M
2025: 60.9M

And it keeps going up and up... this entire time Mahomes has been one of the highest paid players in the league, his cap hit wasn't.

Cap debt doesn't disappear. You can move it around, pay it off in interesting and inventive ways, but there is no tax shelter for cap debt.

Yeah, the 2020 Patriots could have signed Brady or anyone they wanted, all they had to do was keep borrowing... which is how they ended up with the 3rd most dead cap in the NFL entering the 2020 offseason... and oh yeah, the team around Brady would have sucked royally.

You think 43 year old Brady wanted to suck for a season and get the snot kicked out of him so the team could pay off their debts and rebuild?

Just absurd... learn how the cap works and you learn how teams are built.

 

[Wozzy]

Signed - NFL Fan

There was at least one guy in this conversation acutely aware of reality and how the cap works... and it ain't you.

“I think what makes it such a challenge, is it’s hard to win one Super Bowl,” Brady said. “There’s salary caps. You just can’t go buy a football team." - Tom Brady

 

[venecol]

Restocking the offense... how? They entered the 2020 offseason with the 3rd most dead cap in the league.

Did we expect them to hit on 100% of their draft picks because Bill was gone... show me one team that successful in the draft. It's ridiculous.

Brady said he knew he was leaving in 2018 on the Howard Stern show, he wasn't staying.

This is so funny. Pats had about $30M in dead money in '20. Three years later they have the worse record in the AFC.

Bucs had $80M in dead money in '23 (#1 in the league). They immediately win their division and make it to Div Rd w/ a re-threaded QB.

Pull your head out of the sand. Bill had no plan after Brady and drove the team into the ****ter 4 years after he last played here.

 

[Wozzy]

This is so funny. Pats had about $30M in dead money in '20. Three years later they have the worse record in the AFC.

Bucs had $80M in dead money in '23 (#1 in the league). They immediately win their division and make it to Div Rd w/ a re-threaded QB.

Pull your head out of the sand. Bill had no plan after Brady and drove the team into the ****ter 4 years after he last played here.

View attachment 56339

The Patriots cleared the books in 2020, that's how they could afford to spend a lot of money in 2021. Again... do you think 43 year old Tom Brady was willing to suck for a year while the team fixed their debt problem? Laughable... not when he could go to the Bucs, play with their super team and oh yeah, make his wife happy by moving her closer to Miami.

And sorry... but are the Bucs paying Tom 30 million per again in 2023 to play? No they're paying Baker Mayfield peanuts because nobody wanted him. If only we could have gotten Tom to take less again in 2020 to play with a terrible rebuilding roster the two situations would be in any way similar.

Again.. listening to you talk about roster building and salary cap is like watching a monkey try to send a fax.

Feelings don't mean **** in relation to millions and millions of dollars.

 

[venecol]

Cool story bro... like I said, fans don't understand football finances or team building.

Mahomes didn't sign his contract until 2020. Guess what the Chiefs did? The first two years of that contract (2020, 2021) they pushed the majority of his cap debt down the road. It doesn't mean that money disappears, it means it accrues.

What did the Chiefs do in 2022 when Mahomes first big cap hit was due, oh yeah, they traded Tyreek Hill and signed cheaper offensive linemen.

Here's Mahome's cap hits on his new contract and how they increase:

2020: 5.3M
2021: 7.4M
2022: 35.8M
2023: 37.1M
2024: 57.4M
2025: 60.9M

And it keeps going up and up... this entire time Mahomes has been one of the highest paid players in the league, his cap hit wasn't.

Cap debt doesn't disappear. You can move it around, pay it off in interesting and inventive ways, but there is no tax shelter for cap debt.

Yeah, the 2020 Patriots could have signed Brady or anyone they wanted, all they had to do was keep borrowing... which is how they ended up with the 3rd most dead cap in the NFL entering the 2020 offseason... and oh yeah, the team around Brady would have sucked royally.

You think 43 year old Brady wanted to suck for a season and get the snot kicked out of him so the team could pay off their debts and rebuild?

Just absurd... learn how the cap works and you learn how teams are built.

Exactly. What KC did w/ Mahomes contract is what Bills did w/ Allen, Bengals did w/ Burrow, Rams did w/ Stafford, etc. Yet, Patriots couldn't figure out how to push a measly $50M into the future? You answered your own question. They CHOSE not to do it.

Bucs did it. They won a SB. They wiped out $80M (>2× Pats DM) in dead money this season and made it to Div Rd. Fact is Bill sucked as a GM and destroyed the team in the process.

 

[Wozzy]

Exactly. What KC did w/ Mahomes contract is what Bills did w/ Allen, Bengals did w/ Burrow, Rams did w/ Stafford, etc. Yet, Patriots couldn't figure out how to push a measly $50M into the future? You answered your own question. They CHOSE not to do it.

Bucs did it. They won a SB. They wiped out $80M (>2× Pats DM) in dead money this season and made it to Div Rd. Fact is Bill sucked as a GM and destroyed the team in the process.

They wouldn't just be pushing a measly 50M into the future, they would be adding that new money to the millions in cap already owed to Brady. And he wasn't alone, the Patriots used Gilmore's contract in 2018 and 2019 as a slush fund, they did the same thing with Gronk, Cannon and just about every high priced vet. They reworked these contracts to open up cap space and they kicked cap debt down the road. By 2020 Gilmore had one of the biggest cap hits in the entire NFL, he had a salary that was half of what he had been making annually.

That's how you end up with the third most dead cap in the league and with a roster with guys like Gilmore with bloated cap hits. They were going to cut Gilmore because he was dragging them down and did, but Caroina stepped in before they filed the paperwork to offer them a pittance in trade. Again... you're talking like someone who doesn't understand, and I'm being polite about it.

 

[venecol]

The Patriots cleared the books in 2020, that's how they could afford to spend a lot of money in 2021. Again... do you think 43 year old Tom Brady was willing to suck for a year while the team fixed their debt problem? Laughable... not when he could go to the Bucs, play with their super team and oh yeah, make his wife happy by moving her closer to Miami.

And sorry... but are the Bucs paying Tom 30 million per again in 2023 to play? No they're paying Baker Mayfield peanuts because nobody wanted him. If only we could have gotten Tom to take less again in 2020 to play with a terrible rebuilding roster the two situations would be in any way similar.

Again.. listening to you talk about roster building and salary cap is like watching a monkey try to send a fax.

Feelings don't mean **** in relation to millions and millions of dollars.

The Bucs wiped out in '23 more than twice what you claim the Pats wiped out in '20. But yea, I'm the one that doesn't understand the cap. Patriots CHOSE not to use mechanisms available to every team in cap management - void years. Every other team is doing it which allowes them to bring in talent.

You are clueless because you still believe Bill's way of managing the cap is the best way to do it. It no longer is.

 

[venecol]

They wouldn't just be pushing a measly 50M into the future, they would be adding that new money to the millions in cap already owed to Brady. And he wasn't alone, the Patriots used Gilmore's contract in 2018 and 2019 as a slush fund, they did the same thing with Gronk, Cannon and just about every high priced vet. They reworked these contracts to open up cap space and they kicked cap debt down the road. By 2020 Gilmore had one of the biggest cap hits in the entire NFL, he had a salary that was half of what he had been making annually.

That's how you end up with the third most dead cap in the league and with a roster with guys like Gilmore with bloated cap hits. They were going to cut Gilmore because he was dragging them down and did, but Caroina stepped in before the filed the paperwork to offer them a pittance in trade. Again... you're talking like someone who doesn't understand, and I'm being polite about it.

You're the one that doesn't understand at all because your convinced the way Bill handled it was the ONLY way to do it. It wasn't. Why did Bill tag Thuney in '20 if we were so cap strapped then let him walk the following year w/ no compensation.


Are you seriously going to sit there and try to convince this forum that Bill's moves as GM since 2020 were the correct way to go about doing things? Lol, dude. That's what got him fired. You're clueless.

 

[Wozzy]

The Bucs wiped out in '23 more than twice what you claim the Pats wiped out in '20. But yea, I'm the one that doesn't understand the cap. Patriots CHOSE not to use mechanisms available to every team in cap management - void years. Every other team is doing it which allowes them to bring in talent.

You are clueless because you still believe Bill's way of managing the cap is the best way to do it. It no longer is.

The Bucs when Tom joined them and after hadn't just played in 4 Super Bowls over the last five years, Their roster was made up of hyper talented players before Tom joined them and the team just had pay him. Apples/oranges. The Bucs won a single ringle ring, the Patriots won 3.

It just sounds like you guys are whining about the method the Patriots used to win those three rings and want to do it all over again differently, when in fact the series of one year extensions Tom signed was a large part of why they were so successful.

I'm not changing a thing, nor do I have regrets about how it ended. I'm happy Tom got to go play on a Superteam to end his career and Kraft was correct to let him go. You're probably too young so you don't remember how it ended for Barry Sanders and Calvin Johnson in Detroit, but the team held them hostage because they held their rights. Those guys wanted to leave to win a single ring in their careers, but the Lions were jerks. Those two retired early and had a strained relationship with that team for years. Kraft and Tom were like family, it didn't play out that way and we were all better for it.

 

[Wozzy]

You're the one that doesn't understand at all because your convinced the way Bill handled it was the ONLY way to do it. It wasn't. Why did Bill tag Thuney in '20 if we were so cap strapped then let him walk the following year w/ no compensation.

Are you seriously going to sit there and try to convince this forum that Bill's moves as GM since 2020 were the correct way to go about doing things? Lol, dude. That's what got him fired. You're clueless.

Yeah... BB sucked at it. That's why the last team to win three Super Bowls over a five year period was (checks notes) the Patriots two decades prior.

Sure... BB sucked at his job. Again... real smooth brain thinking.

 

[venecol]

Yeah... BB sucked at it. That's why the last team to win three Super Bowls over a five year period was (checks notes) the Patriots two decades prior.

Sure... BB sucked at his job. Again... real smooth brain thinking.

You're living in the past. I choose the present. Do you think it's a coincidence that only one NFL team interviewed him for HC and the reason he didn't get an offer was his wanting to be GM as well? Nobody in the NFL wants to hire Bill/GM. Not a one.

Get over it. At one point when Bill had the GOAT QB, his GM moves worked. Since the GOAT QB left, his moves sucked ass. Everyone in the NFL from coaches, to players, to FO executives, to fans see this. You choose to live in the past. I'm done here.

 

[amfootball]

This is so funny. Pats had about $30M in dead money in '20. Three years later they have the worse record in the AFC.

Bucs had $80M in dead money in '23 (#1 in the league). They immediately win their division and make it to Div Rd w/ a re-threaded QB.

Pull your head out of the sand. Bill had no plan after Brady and drove the team into the ****ter 4 years after he last played here.

View attachment 56339

The Bucs success post Brady is also yet another black mark against Bill and his bull crap answers about why they could not retain Brady and then had to "punt" on the 2020 season ...

 

[Wozzy]

The Bucs success post Brady is also yet another black mark against Bill and his bull crap answers about why they could not retain Brady and then had to "punt" on the 2020 season ...

The Bucs "success" post Brady is based on already having a stacked roster and being able to pay Baker Mayfield pennies. The median age of the Patriots in 2019 was near the oldest in the NFL and they had 11-12 major starters or contributors they needed to re-sign or replace in 2020, including the QB position, you know... the most expensive position in football.

And how did the Buc's season end? Oh yeah... with a whimper. Great example of nothing at all.

 

[lancerman]

The Bucs "success" post Brady is based on already having a stacked roster and being able to pay Baker Mayfield pennies. The median age of the Patriots in 2019 was near the oldest in the NFL and they had 11-12 major starters or contributors they needed to re-sign or replace in 2020, including the QB position, you know... the most expensive position in football.

And how did the Buc's season end? Oh yeah... with a whimper. Great example of nothing at all.

There's a huge difference between 13 losses and coming in last in the division and being the 3rd worst team in the league and making the playoffs and winning a playoff game against one of the top NFC teams.

 

[Wozzy]

There's a huge difference between 13 losses and coming in last in the division and being the 3rd worst team in the league and making the playoffs and winning a playoff game against one of the top NFC teams.

Baker Mayfield won more games than Tom did the season prior, but you think it’s a smear on BB’s resume? Sounds legit.

 

[lancerman]

Baker Mayfield won more games than Tom did the season prior, but you think it’s a smear on BB’s resume? Sounds legit.

Brady made the playoffs and the team had more injuries last year. We went 4-13. You are comparing the 30th ranked team to a playoff team team.