idle thoughts- stepping back from the edge

cavtroop said:

I think you missed the point. I dont think patfanken is saying 'the officials are the reason it was a close game'. I think he's saying 'officiating is sucking this year' all over, and not just in a Pats-specific way. Sure, the examples he gives are pro-pats, but I don't think that's his point.

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Blame Bill Polian for the pass interference and illegal contact rule changes.

TheGodInAGreyHoodie said:

Didn't read your entire post, but there is something serious wrong when a fan base of a team tied for first place in their conference and has a solid lead on the division needs to be told to step back from the ledge.

First place, we are tied for first place. First place -- It is where you want to be.

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The problem is that we've been down this path before- firsg plce, first round bye, etc.

LOL........what ledge?

This current collective quality of play will not only not work in January against playoff teams, it will promise to be ugly.

ATippett56 said:

If you think officiating is bad in the NFL, watch European club soccer sometime.

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Yeah, I know, that or the NBA

I'm with pfk on this one though - I think the quality of refereeing in the NFL is steadily declining - especially as every year they seemingly change the rules, or add 'special emphasis' on existing rules.

ATippett56 said:

If you think officiating is bad in the NFL, watch European club soccer sometime.

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To be fair...soccer doesn't have reviews and usually it's only a pair of eyes making the calls.

The nfl has what...like 7+ dudes watching every aspect of the game.

randomk1 said:

To be fair...soccer doesn't have reviews and usually it's only a pair of eyes making the calls.

The nfl has what...like 7+ dudes watching every aspect of the game.

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Penalties are not subject to instant replay.

cavtroop said:

Yeah, I know, that or the NBA

I'm with pfk on this one though - I think the quality of refereeing in the NFL is steadily declining - especially as every year they seemingly change the rules, or add 'special emphasis' on existing rules.

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I agree that NFL officials have their problems. To be fair to them, though, some of the new rules they're being asked to enforce are all but impossible for humans to get consistently correct at full speed. The helmet rules (QB and defenseless receiver) are lousy rules for multiple reasons. Difficulty in properly enforcing them is one of those reasons.

reflexblue said:

If you are saying the pats poor performance's are due in part to poor officiating please don't go there, everyone else has to deal with it too. Blaming the officiating is the last bastion of hope, the jests posters blame the refs for their failures.

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Did I say that or are you just using my quote to enhance your point of view. My comment was officiating across the board. I take offense that group me with those delusional Jet fans who think every flag thrown against their team is because Bob Kraft has a buzzer in his pocket that allows him to do that.

Time to get off that high horse...you'll get a rash.

patfanken said:

I take offense that group me with those delusional Jet fans who think every flag thrown against their team is because Bob Kraft has a buzzer in his pocket that allows him to do that.

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Not Bob Kraft but Bill Polian.

ATippett56 said:

Penalties are not subject to instant replay.

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I was talking about the games in general. The NFL has replay to correct calls. In soccer you gotta live with it.

TheGodInAGreyHoodie said:

Didn't read your entire post, but there is something serious wrong when a fan base of a team tied for first place in their conference and has a solid lead on the division needs to be told to step back from the ledge.

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This is partly due to the bar having been set so high by past title runs.

Deus Irae said:

No, you're not. Your weekly manifestos demonstrate this conclusively.

And, once again, you get it completely wrong. Everyone except you and the ostriches are able to understand that every team has flaws. When you stop posting as if the Patriots are the only exception to that rule, you'll become a smarter poster.

You, and the rest of the ostriches, used the same ridiculous defenses last year that you're using this year, right up until the one-and-done in the playoffs, despite the large number of us who were warning you about the defensive problems and the problem of a lack of an outside receiver who could consistently threaten deep.
.

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Since you enjoy pain and misery so much and you have such a high opinion of your own point of view I would think you'd be MUCH happier as a Jet fan. You fit the profile to a T.

Lets see, you'd much rather dwell on what your team is doing badly. (check) You expect the worst even when it doesn't result (check), You think you are smarter than anyone else and your opinion holds more weight, yet you somehow don't consider yourself arrogant (check) Now if you were less well spoken and didn't write as well as you do, you'd be the perfect candidate for the JI HOF. Congratulations.

As for those of us you denigrate as "ostriches"'; those you deem as being less than knowledgeable I take offense to that notion. I don;t think you ever played the game, because you don't seem to grasp how hard it is to put a team (any team) together and win, especially in the NFL. You don't seem to have an appreciation of how good ALL these guys are as athletes and competitors. You seem to be content to sit in judgement of your betters and pontificate opinions that somehow make you feel better about yourself. As if criticizing Bill Bellichick makes you a smarter guy and those who don't...idiots

There isn't an "ostrich" who posts here who hasn't criticized Bill about one move or another. NO ONE claims that mistakes haven't been made. But we just don't dwell on them with every post and we feel the necessity to play some kind of keeper of the flame of "holy negativity" in order to justify some lofty position of superiority you given yourself.

Finally I take exception to your representation and dismissal of last year's team's accomplishments as being an exemplar of bad management. You want us to ignore that it was a team that not only when 14-2, but in doing so they also beat a great majority teams that eventually made it to the playoffs. It was unfortunate that they chose a bad day to have a "bad day", but it happens......a lot. Just ask the Saints vs Seattle. The Broncos vs the Jags, etc Good teams who are built well and do all the right things.....get Beat. Its not always their fault. They pay the other guys as well and they shaped the ball so it doesn't bounce straight for a reason. Sh!t happens

And before you get a bruise patting yourself on the back for claiming that all the Pats offensive flaws derive from not having a "deep threat", remind yourself that the Pats managed to win 3 superbowls without EVER having a single "deep threat" and won their first when ALL their TEs COMBINED to catch 20 balls in the regular season and their #3 WR also only caught fewer than 25 balls that season. So please, tell me again how the Pats need a deep threat to win a superbowl.

When my son was a toddler, and got upset, I used to tell him to "take a chill pill". For some reason known only to 3 year olds it never failed to make him smile. To that's my advise to you, DI. Take a Chill Pill. In fact I'm going to take one myself

shmessy said:

As always, Ken, great stuff.

I DO have to take issue with the long reception play.

That one took place right almost in front of me - - Section 125 Row 8 (10 yd line near the "NAVY" endzone ).

McCourty never turned for the ball - - when it was obvious that it was coming for Stallworth. While it happened, I yelled "TURN!!!!!!"

The 2010 McCourty turns for that. The 2011 doesn't. This has happened on several other occasions this year.

I would say that it probably has more to do with his injury (which IIRC was collarbone/shoulder) limiting his turning flexibility.

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I saw it a little bit differently Shmess, though I had the advantage or numerous replays. I always felt he knew where the ball was because he was RIGHT on Stallworth's hands the moment the ball hit them. He was a microsecond off knocking it out. At it was Stallwroth bobbled it.

My criticism of the play would be his horrible jam technique of the receiver coming off the LOS. Stallworth was by him much too quickly and presented too much of an open target for the QB to miss. What I liked was his closing speed. By the time the well thrown ball reached the WR, McCourty had closed the game and was in very good posiiton to make a play.

Of course the margin of success and failure is razor thin sometimes. However as a coach I would have attributed the results of THIS particular play more on what the QB and WR did RIGHT, than what the CB did WRONG. Though there were some coaching points worthy of mention, like the man technique off the LOS, I couldn't say much about what happened when the ball got there

rivers983 said:

Completely disagree. This is the worst 10-3 team this league has ever seen. Don't kid yourself.

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I would rather be a lousy 10-3 than a great 5 and 8 or 6 and 7 like a team like the Seahawks will be after tonight with virtually no shot to get into the post season.

Every week is an opportunity to improve and take another step forward.

patfanken said:

Since you enjoy pain and misery so much and you have such a high opinion of your own point of view I would think you'd be MUCH happier as a Jet fan. You fit the profile to a T.

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How cute. The "Jets fan" move. Nobody's ever seen that one before.

patfanken said:

Lets see, you'd much rather dwell on what your team is doing badly. (check) You expect the worst even when it doesn't result (check), You think you are smarter than anyone else and your opinion holds more weight, yet you somehow don't consider yourself arrogant (check) Now if you were less well spoken and didn't write as well as you do, you'd be the perfect candidate for the JI HOF. Congratulations.

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Actually, Ken, I "dwell" on what's happening, both good and bad. I've picked the Patriots in, I believe, every game this season. I don't think intelligence matters much in a lot of these discussions because a lot of it boils down to an imperfect answer and I can only guess at the intelligence of others, I don't consider my opinion to hold any more weight than what any given individual gives it, and I'm perfectly willing to admit that I'm arrogant in certain areas of my life. Amusingly enough, football talk is not one of them, as most of my friends are more than willing to concede. You confuse a degree of confidence based upon research with arrogance, largely because I dare to disagree with some of the grade "a" you've so frequently been shovel in the past couple of years.

patfanken said:

As for those of us you denigrate as "ostriches"'; those you deem as being less than knowledgeable I take offense to that notion. I don;t think you ever played the game, because you don't seem to grasp how hard it is to put a team (any team) together and win, especially in the NFL. You don't seem to have an appreciation of how good ALL these guys are as athletes and competitors. You seem to be content to sit in judgement of your betters and pontificate opinions that somehow make you feel better about yourself. As if criticizing Bill Bellichick makes you a smarter guy and those who don't...idiots

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First, one can be an ostrich and be very intelligent.

Second, this is a message board, not the NFL coaches association meetings, so quit acting as if it's insulting to note when people here screw up or to disagree with moves made by NFL coaches. If you can't accept that discussion and debate on team moves will happen here, you're probably better suited just for writing blog entries without a comment section.

Third, criticizing BB doesn't make me more, or less, intelligent than those who don't. You consistently ignoring the team problems doesn't make you any more or less intelligent, either.

patfanken said:

There isn't an "ostrich" who posts here who hasn't criticized Bill about one move or another. NO ONE claims that mistakes haven't been made. But we just don't dwell on them with every post and we feel the necessity to play some kind of keeper of the flame of "holy negativity" in order to justify some lofty position of superiority you given yourself.

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Actually, and you're a classic example, most of the ostriches couch something as a criticism while defending him in the same post. It's textbook, and it's amusing for a while. However, to say you don't dwell is misleading, because you simply "dwell" on attacks against those who question Bill. The keeper of the flame argument is far more a part of the homers than it is of those who criticize the team. When aimed directly at me, the "keeper of the flame" argument is idiotic, as I'm as staunch a defender of BB in certain areas as is anyone on this site.

patfanken said:

Finally I take exception to your representation and dismissal of last year's team's accomplishments as being an exemplar of bad management. You want us to ignore that it was a team that not only when 14-2, but in doing so they also beat a great majority teams that eventually made it to the playoffs. It was unfortunate that they chose a bad day to have a "bad day", but it happens......a lot. Just ask the Saints vs Seattle. The Broncos vs the Jags, etc Good teams who are built well and do all the right things.....get Beat. Its not always their fault. They pay the other guys as well and they shaped the ball so it doesn't bounce straight for a reason. Sh!t happens

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Yeah, I really don't care that you take exception. You, and a lot of other homers, were busting the asses of anyone who pointed out that team's problems. You told us we were wrong and crazy. In the end, we were proven correct both on the field and in the post-season moves of BB.

"Sh!t happens", but what happened last year was a completely foreseeable thing, and not some shocker that came out of nowhere.

patfanken said:

And before you get a bruise patting yourself on the back for claiming that all the Pats offensive flaws derive from not having a "deep threat", remind yourself that the Pats managed to win 3 superbowls without EVER having a single "deep threat" and won their first when ALL their TEs COMBINED to catch 20 balls in the regular season and their #3 WR also only caught fewer than 25 balls that season. So please, tell me again how the Pats need a deep threat to win a superbowl.

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1.) I haven't said that all the Patriots offensive flaws are because they don't have a deep threat. That's the most obvious issue, but the receivers' inability to beat good press coverage and the running back situation are two other problem areas.

2.) When the Patriots were winning Super Bowls, Brady was sharing the ball more. The closest thing to an exception to this was the stacked squad of 2007, which reached but didn't win:

2001 - 9 receivers with 10+ catches
2003 - 9 receivers with 10+ catches
2004 - 10 receivers with 10+ catches
2007 - 6 receivers with 10+ catches (The Moss/Welker super year)
2010 - 7 receivers with 10+ catches
2011 - 6 receivers with 10+ catches to date

They also had receivers who could at least threaten deep, such as Patten just to name one. Barring blown coverages, nobody's concerned about Branch or Welker beating them on a 40 yard strike.

In fact, here's some info from ESPN:

Passes thrown 31+ yards:
2011 - 1 for 14 (11 for 24 at 21-30 yards)
2010 - 5 for 19 (9 for 17 at 21-30 yards)
2007 - 13 for 30 (15 for 39 at 21-30 yards)
2004 - 12 for 38 (14 for 38 at 21-30 yards)
2003 - 12 for 31 (8 for 32 at 21-30 yards)
2001 - (unavailable)

So, whether you care to admit it or not, the data shows that the Patriots were both sharing the ball more and going deep more often in the Super Bowl years, which loosened up the defense. You can go blow smoke up someone else's pants. I prefer to stick with what's actually happening rather than your version of what's actually happening.

patfanken said:

When my son was a toddler, and got upset, I used to tell him to "take a chill pill". For some reason known only to 3 year olds it never failed to make him smile. To that's my advise to you, DI. Take a Chill Pill. In fact I'm going to take one myself

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My advice to you, since we're giving it out, is for you to quit acting like a toddler, and realize that adults should be able to both give, and take, criticism as part of a healthy discussion, particularly when it's generally being aimed at third parties as part of analysis rather than vicious gossip.

BB's the best coach in the NFL, but he's not perfect. He's built a solid team, but his defense is crap largely because he hasn't been able to replace great players with players of anything approaching equal quality. His failure to bring in a receiver that can consistently threaten middle-deep and beat press coverage allowed the Jets to stack their defense in the middle of the field last year in the playoffs, which helped lead to a Patriots loss. This shouldn't be controversial or problematic for you to accept if you're as intelligent as you seem to be implying.

Ken, a small tidbit and inevitably considered inconsequential I know but could you spell player's names correctly if it's not too much trouble? I've always found it disrespectful to incorrectly name people for some reason.

Deus Irae said:

No, you're not. Your weekly manifestos demonstrate this conclusively.

And, once again, you get it completely wrong. Everyone except you and the ostriches are able to understand that every team has flaws. When you stop posting as if the Patriots are the only exception to that rule, you'll become a smarter poster.

You, and the rest of the ostriches, used the same ridiculous defenses last year that you're using this year, right up until the one-and-done in the playoffs, despite the large number of us who were warning you about the defensive problems and the problem of a lack of an outside receiver who could consistently threaten deep.

...

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Wow, I don't even know what to say, what an arrogance DI what is your problem ? Right or wrong, it is a very interesting read and lot of people like it whether they agree to all things written in the post or not

You don't like the post or thread, just move on. jeez...

parthasas said:

Wow, I don't even know what to say, what an arrogance DI what is your problem ? You don't like the post or thread, just move on. jeez...

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I responded in kind to someone who used "you and your ilk", and who's initial post was a slap at people who have issues with the team, and I'm supposedly the one who was arrogant?

Good comedy.

Deus Irae said:

I responded in kind to someone who used "you and your ilk", and who's initial post was a slap at people who have issues with the team, and I'm supposedly the one who was arrogant?

Good comedy.

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Patsfanken's initial post when referring to negative comments:
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"Another game, another win, another rash of complaints. God it is hard to be a Pats fan these days.

I said it before the game, and I imagine I will say it for the next 3 weeks; NOTHING this team can do will satisfy the media/general fan base/and the denizens of Patsfans.com. That being said here are a few observations and opinions on the game and the weekend in general....."





Deus Irae's initial post:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patfanken
Another game, another win, another rash of complaints, another week for the ostriches to pretend that all is well and this is the land of unicorns and pixie dust.

Fixed your post.


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It is what it is.