It is now time for the Brady GOAT case

[JR4]

Here are a few answers about the QB GOAT:

"Here's the truth: Brady and Montana are in a league of their own. Johnny Unitas merits mention in the discussion, but to me, it's a two-man debate. And honestly, there isn't a wrong answer."
Chris Wesseling

and ....

"Brady is firmly in a group of quarterbacks I consider to be the best of best all time, alongside Roger Staubach, Joe Montana, Johnny Unitas, Dan Marino, John Elway, Aaron Rodgers, Peyton Manning and Otto Graham."
Gil Brandt

and the one I most agree with:

"Brady has evolved into his era's definitive figure
I don't have a strong opinion on the greatest ever. Is that so wrong? It's impossible to truly evaluate quarterback play across different eras unless you go back and watch a truckload of game tape. That's not happening."
Gregg Rosenthal

 

[sphen22]

My favorite hater comment so far has been the:

Brady is the most Accomplished Quarterback, but not the best.

Talk about a slick way to move the goal posts back

 

[Ring 6]

OR
just indicating a GOAT can not be determined (ridiculous ) because there are just too many variables when the time frame is 50 years plus which is also a valid conclusion when the discussion is about trying to determine a QB GOAT.

OK whatever. I'm just going to stop with you. You don't even stand behind your own words an hour later.

As I said, if you think there is no point in discussing the GOAT, why are you posting in this thread?

 

[josh24]

• Until Peyton Manning shattered, and later doubled, the record for postseason's 1 & done, it was Montana who held it with 4 in 11 playoff yrs.
  
  Brady has 2 in 12 playoff yrs.

• HoF DB Ronnie Lott started every postseason game Montana played in SF.
  
  Mention a Ronnie Lott, HoF caliber defensive player that started most, not even all, of the postseason gms Brady has played in.

• Montana had EIGHT (8) top 5 scoring defenses in TEN (10) years in SF (80%).
  
  Brady has had 5 in 13 yrs with NE (38.5%).
  
  Don't forget 2011 NE defense, who along with GB, set the record (at the time) for most yds allowed in a single season, and most pass yds allowed as well.

• Montana went 12-5 in the postseason vs top 10 scoring defenses (2 SB wins).
  
  Brady has been 15-3, including all SB wins.

• Montana had 5 fourth qtr game-winning drives in the postseason (1 SB).
  Brady has 9, including all SB wins.

• In the 12 games of the 49ers' SB runs with Montana, they ran for over 100 yds in every game, with an average of 152.1 rush yds per game, and scored 15 rush TDs (2 by Montana).
  Credit to Montana in '84, who accounted for 144 of the 501 SF had.
  
  In the 12 games of the Patriots' SB runs with Brady, they ran for over 100 yds in 7 games, with an average of 108.3 rush yds per game, and scored 11 rush TDs (3 by Brady).
  
  Also, the 268 rush yds by '01 NE, and 248 by '14 NE (including 14 yds vs BAL, lowest ever by a winning team in a PS game) are #3 and #2, respectively, for less rush yds by a SB champion ever (3+ games).

• Montana's biggest comeback win in the SB years was 7 points (SB 23 vs Bengals).
  Also, he had a 6 pt comeback win vs Cowboys in '81. He had 4 other comeback wins in those years; all 3 point deficits.
  
  Total of 6 comeback wins (1 SB); two 2nd half deficits wins.
  
  Brady's biggest comeback win in the SB (win) years was 14 points (2014 AFCCG vs BAL, twice within the game).
  Also, 10-pt comeback vs Raiders in '01 and SB 49 vs Seahawks (both 4th qtr deficits), and one 7-pt at SB 39 vs Eagles. Two other comeback wins; 3 pt vs STL at SB 36, and 1 pt vs CAR at SB 38.
  
  Total of 6 comeback wins (all SB); four 2nd half deficits wins.

• Montana went 1-4 in postseason games under 40 degrees.
  
  Brady has been 11-2.

• Montana on the road, postseason gms: 2-5
  
  Brady on the road, postseason gms: 3-3

Also, as many have pointed out: Regular Season Brady >> Regular Season Montana.

 

[bradydaman29]

Jimmy Garrapolo is unbeaten in the Super Bowl and threw no interceptions.

I believe Trent Dilfer won every super bowl he was ever in so according to some, he is a greater qb than brady - illogical argument.

 

[PATS16N0]

I can't argue this anymore.
4 championships.
6 Superbowls.
9 AFC Championship games.

Everyone who denies Brady is the GOAT can go **** themselves.

 

[PATS16N0]

Oh, and Peyton isn't the best September quarterback of all time, just the most accomplished

 

[smurfalarm]

My favorite hater comment so far has been the:

Brady is the most Accomplished Quarterback, but not the best.

Talk about a slick way to move the goal posts back

When they take out accomplishments, who do they say is the best quarterback of all time? Peyton? Marino? Unitas? Montana wasn't the most talented QB on his own team while he was still in his prime, much less of all time, so whatever standards they are applying probably shouldn't be that favorable to Montana.

 

[raduray]

Hey I have no problem with what Hasselbeck said. He's basically saying what we all knew and that is how Manning really is the greatest regular season QB of all time. When you want regular season stats and fantasy numbers, Manning is your man.

Manning is greatest fantasy QB of all time (GFOAT).

 

[patsfan13]

You're missing the point. Brady and Montana have comparable offensive stats. So if one had a significantly greater degree of difficulty achieving those stats, he arguably was better.

Being a QB is all about victories, that is independent of the era the QB played in.

Montana has a .713 winning % and Brady has a .773 winning %. This translates to Montana and Brady having the same number of regular season defeats, 47 but Brady having 43 MORE Victories. Brady is clearly has a far superior regular season record. Of course in Brady's era the Patriots have had to play the corresponding team in the other AFC divisions. SO the Patriots with the perennial Division championships guarantee that they will play 4 games against division champs from the previous year.

This is addition to Brady having to deal with far more roster turnover due to the salary cap which didn't really affect Montana's career.


Then when we look at the playoffs we have a smaller sample size but again Brady has the higher winning % .714 to Montana's . Brady had only 2 1 and don's in the playoffs to Montana's 4. Brady has 6 conference championships to Montana's 4. More Division championships and Conference Championship appearances.


These things identify Brady as the most accomplished QB of the Modern era (>1955). Not sure how one even disputes that if you look at the record. As Bill Parcells says YOU ARE WHAT YOUR RECORD SAYS YOUR ARE.

Bye the time Brady retires he will be off the charts compared to any QB who has ever played this game.

 

[patsfan13]

OR
just indicating a GOAT can not be determined (ridiculous ) because there are just too many variables when the time frame is 50 years plus which is also a valid conclusion when the discussion is about trying to determine a QB GOAT.

Winning games and championships is the constant across eras. It is definable.

 

[StrawHatPatriot]

Even if people don't want to make him the confirmed GOAT yet, can we at least confirm that Peyton should never be considered better than Brady, and that he should never be brought up in this discussion ever again?

 

[Ivan]

I think Patriot fans are being way to hard on Manning. The truth is that both he and Brady are play off record holders. Brady is tied for most championships, SB MVPs, and holds the record for most wins and TDs as well as fourth quarter comebacks, and Manning is first in one and done and losses. Really people we're splitting hairs here.

 

[Ivan]

Even if people don't want to make him the confirmed GOAT yet, can we at least confirm that Peyton should never be considered better than Brady, and that he should never be brought up in this discussion ever again?

F.ck that, he's the GOAT.

 

[wolverinejoe80]

to me GOAT QB is

1. Have many SB rings - this is the ultimate goal. he plays to win.
2. Have a great 'football' ability - good arm(makes all the throws), pocket awareness, presence, presnap ability, have a good touch
3. Can adapt to situation - he who adapts. Tall WRs, small WRs. running game or no running game. etc.
4. General who inspires - call it an 'aura' or 'it'. he make players believe in themselves
5. Make others better - with his leadership and on field football ability
6. great on every qtr - He is consistently great in all qtrs.
7. even greater in 4th qtr - this is where he shines.
8. Put fear on teams - He wins the psychological battle. Teams fear playing him because they know he is coming.
9. Plays well in all conditions - in snow, in rain. in -20F or 100F. throws tight spirals in any environment. nothing bothers him
10. He is coachable - he is the ultimate team player. Coaches love coaching him.
11. puts up stats in both regular season and the playoffs - this to me isn't all that important. IMO, stats are results of what type of offense he runs, where are they playing, who does he have on offense etc.


and the answer is Tom fawkin brady. he's been the GOAT since 18-1 season to me. and i really don't care if they endlessly debate who's better. all i know is we have the best QB for this team and he will be driven to win the next ring.

 

[wolverinejoe80]

Being a QB is all about victories, that is independent of the era the QB played in.

Montana has a .713 winning % and Brady has a .773 winning %. This translates to Montana and Brady having the same number of regular season defeats, 47 but Brady having 43 MORE Victories. Brady is clearly has a far superior regular season record. Of course in Brady's era the Patriots have had to play the corresponding team in the other AFC divisions. SO the Patriots with the perennial Division championships guarantee that they will play 4 games against division champs from the previous year.

This is addition to Brady having to deal with far more roster turnover due to the salary cap which didn't really affect Montana's career.


Then when we look at the playoffs we have a smaller sample size but again Brady has the higher winning % .714 to Montana's . Brady had only 2 1 and don's in the playoffs to Montana's 4. Brady has 6 conference championships to Montana's 4. More Division championships and Conference Championship appearances.


These things identify Brady as the most accomplished QB of the Modern era (>1955). Not sure how one even disputes that if you look at the record. As Bill Parcells says YOU ARE WHAT YOUR RECORD SAYS YOUR ARE.

Bye the time Brady retires he will be off the charts compared to any QB who has ever played this game.

you can endless debate by bringing up these numbers, %, beat this team or that team, etc, etc. in football, there will never be a consensus GOAT. that's just how it is because football is the ultimate team game.
haters will just say 'because brady has BB' 'because he played in AFC least', etc, etc. it will never end.
to shut them up brady simply has to win more SBs, more awards, and have more great 'moments'.

at the end of the day brady will retire with most SB rings. and the day brady retires there will be a collective sigh of relief across the nation because the big bad golden boy is finally gone for good.

 

[PATS16N0]

Tom Brady took a team rebuilding to the Superbowl and would of won it if not for a Welker drop.

Most teams in rebuilding mode finish 6-10.

 

[wolverinejoe80]

my GOAT list. not including old school QBs because i never got to watch them live.

1. Brady (most perfect career)
2. Peyton (yes, he is better than montana at football)
3. Montana (i don't just judge players by SBs)
4. Marino (would've been #2 with just 1 ring)
5. Favre (greatest football talent, but a gunslinger)
6. Young (just didn't do long enough)
7. elway (may seem high, but can't deny 5SB appearances)
8. brees (overshadowed by brady/peyton, but still great)
9. warner (didn't do long enough, but when he was on he was unstoppable)
10. moon (i'm big on moon - a great thrower of football)
11. aikman (overshadowed by the dominant team - played well when it mattered)
12. rodgers (will climb up)
13. kelly (criminally underrated)
14. fouts (i was a big fouts guy)
15. romo (i'm very high on romo's football ability - IMO, romo is the most underrated QB in past 30 years because of cowboys nonstop nonsense)


i know guys like unitas, graham, staubach, starr, bradshaw are on the list, but i can't rank guys i haven't seen. so obviously if i somehow judge all the old school guys, guys like romo will probably in the top 30-40 range. but i just can't do it. i know unitas was great. but i just can't do it. i hate lying to myself. i can't judge what i haven't witnessed.

yes, peyton is ahead of montana. i value peyton's regular season greatness. IMO, peyton is a victim of his own greatness. his style softens the team. and him being the OC hurts him. but objectively speaking, peyton runs circle around joe montana in talent, presnap ability, fear factor, and overall impact on games.

and peyton played in brady's era. you can't really fault him on that. if there was no brady, peyton would've won more most likely or at least got to more SBs. and remember, montana played on a loaded niners team in a non salary cap era.

 

[Ring 6]

my GOAT list. not including old school QBs because i never got to watch them live.

1. Brady (most perfect career)
2. Peyton (yes, he is better than montana at football)
3. Montana (i don't just judge players by SBs)
4. Marino (would've been #2 with just 1 ring)
5. Favre (greatest football talent, but a gunslinger)
6. Young (just didn't do long enough)
7. elway (may seem high, but can't deny 5SB appearances)
8. brees (overshadowed by brady/peyton, but still great)
9. warner (didn't do long enough, but when he was on he was unstoppable)
10. moon (i'm big on moon - a great thrower of football)
11. aikman (overshadowed by the dominant team - played well when it mattered)
12. rodgers (will climb up)
13. kelly (criminally underrated)
14. fouts (i was a big fouts guy)
15. romo (i'm very high on romo's football ability - IMO, romo is the most underrated QB in past 30 years because of cowboys nonstop nonsense)


i know guys like unitas, graham, staubach, starr, bradshaw are on the list, but i can't rank guys i haven't seen. so obviously if i somehow judge all the old school guys, guys like romo will probably in the top 30-40 range. but i just can't do it. i know unitas was great. but i just can't do it. i hate lying to myself. i can't judge what i haven't witnessed.

yes, peyton is ahead of montana. i value peyton's regular season greatness. IMO, peyton is a victim of his own greatness. his style softens the team. and him being the OC hurts him. but objectively speaking, peyton runs circle around joe montana in talent, presnap ability, fear factor, and overall impact on games.

and peyton played in brady's era. you can't really fault him on that. if there was no brady, peyton would've won more most likely or at least got to more SBs. and remember, montana played on a loaded niners team in a non salary cap era.

I dont think you value the playoffs enough. Your comment that Manning's good creates Mannings bad is a big reason he gets downgraded. It was the same with Marino. You can't give them credit for 'carrying a team' if they are incapable of carrying them in the post-season.
Your comment about Manning being held back by Brady is not correct. Brady has beaten Manning in the playoffs 2 times. One was an AFCCG and the other was a divisional round where Manning put up 3 points, and never would have (based on hi plaoyff record) gone to Pitt and beat the 15-1 Steelers.
Other great QBs have been held back by a rival in the postseason much more than that.
In fact Manning beat Brady to get to 2 of his 3 SBs. Against everyone other than Tom Brady, Manning has a 9-11 career playoff record, including 9 3 and outs, none of which were vs the Patriots.
Manning is borderline top 10, no way in the world he is 2.
You clearly were also too young to see Montana play.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

There were less teams in the league when Montanner played.
That means that statistically alone, the chances of getting to the SB for SF were greater.