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I was hoping this would be the butt fumble.
Ask and ye shall receive:
New England Patriots safety Steve Gregory 32-yard fumble return TD - NFL Videos
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CLICK HERE to Register for a free account and login for a smoother ad-free experience. It's easy, and only takes a few moments.I was hoping this would be the butt fumble.
Try telling this to Seattle.
Support your argument.
I was hoping this would be the butt fumble.
The thing about big hitting safeties is that they're more likely to be Brandon Meriweather than they are Kam Chancellor. Now if you tell me Mark Barron is available then I'd say "show me the dotted line".
For me, instincts and the ability to read a game are just so much more important to safety play than the ability to lay a hit.
The thing about big hitting safeties is that they're more likely to be Brandon Meriweather than they are Kam Chancellor. Now if you tell me Mark Barron is available then I'd say "show me the dotted line".
For me, instincts and the ability to read a game are just so much more important to safety play than the ability to lay a hit.
I would agree with that, and I certainly don't want another Brandon Meriweather. I'd be content to settle for an instinctive safety with the ability to read a game (Ed Reynolds comes to mind). I do think there is some value to "policing" the middle of the field and letting the other team know that they are going to take some punishment, but it certainly doesn't outweigh sound overall play.
You know that Mark Barron and Kam Chancellor both get plenty of penalties right? They're both near the top of the list with 11 between them. You know that the number one and two teams in penalties by safeties were Denver and Seattle right? Do you know who lead the league in penalties by safeties last year? The Ravens did. Those are facts.
This is opinion; I think physical defenses look are hard hits as an investment. They take the penalty at the time, and let the profits roll in when the opposition is tiptoeing over the middle for the rest of the season. We all saw Denver's WRs get abused right? Decker was too scared to get in the ring, and Thomas showed great courage but he was beaten so badly that he couldn't move the next day.
For me, everything is important, but maybe the most important thing is optimizing a player's talent and fitting the scheme to the star players. One reason I think we need to get a real strong safety is to put McCourty in a better position to win. He's a free safety, and one that would excel in cover-1 and cover-3 schemes -- like Earl Thomas and Seattle. I've watched almost every Seahawks game this year and I think you guys would be surprised how much Earl Thomas is like Devin McCourty. He's more aggressive and he hits harder, but other than that they aren't much different.
The big differences between Earl Thomas and Devin McCourty are that Thomas is more aggressive and physical, as you note. I'm not sure whether that's a function of their inherent temperament and style, or a function of how they are used. I think that McCourty would indeed excel in cover-1 and cover-3 schemes as you suggest.
I think that freelancing, undisciplined play and poor penalties will kill a secondary; but that doesn't rule out some aggressive, physical play and a few well-timed messages to keep the opposing offense honest. I'll take those over being shredded while we stand by passively.
I'm not sure either, but I would bet it's somewhere in the middle. Thomas tends to sell out more on tackles more often, but misses tackles more often too. I think that speaks to the play style. And in interviews McCourty is a cool customer, he sounds the same after a win or a loss, whereas Thomas is a little more fiery and outspoken.
Yeah, I'm not asking for another Meriweather -- I'm sure no one is asking for that. I'm not even asking for Kam Chancellor. I'm just asking for a player that is an upgrade on Gregory and compliments McCourty in that same way Chancellor compliments Thomas in Seattle. In theory it could be Harmon.
All this talk of hard hitting safeties has me stupidly excited.
Jeebus. Reading this thread (and I didn't get past the first page), you'd think we were coming off consecutive 3-13 seasons.
How can you say our defense doesn't work when we make the final 4 every g-d year? And the offense wasn't even great this year.
Should we imitate the flavor of the month in Seattle? Do we think that Seattle has re-invented the wheel defensively -- or could it be that they just crushed the draft talentwise. Find me Richard Sherman, Kam Chancellor, and Earl Thomas, and our defense will be amongst the league leaders without changing anything else other than a return to health. Subtract Gregory, McCourty, and Dennard and add those three and we're a Super Bowl favorite. There's no need to tear everything down -- we just need to find that elite talent. And if it were easy, everybody would be doing it.
My apologies to anybody else in the three pages I didn't read who made the same point.
So we should just pray our 33 year old DT can come back from an ACL injury, our 32 year old DT can come back from an Achilles rupture, our #1 CB can stay healthy for a full season and the playoffs, and our 2 DEs can both play over 1000 snaps without injury or wearing down, put more resources into "weapons" for Brady and put up 500 points like we did 4 times from 2007-2012, and then wait for the defense to not be able to stop anyone when it counts in the playoffs and watch the offense lay a brick against a good defense like we did in 2007, 2010, 2011 and 2012 and like Denver did this year in the SB? That sounds like a great plan.
No one's being a chicken little. But if we want to win another SB we're going to have to get a defense that can get the opposing offense off the field and make a stop when the game's on the line. We haven't done that since 2004. There are needs on defense, and ignoring them isn't the answer.
So we should just pray our 33 year old DT can come back from an ACL injury, our 32 year old DT can come back from an Achilles rupture, our #1 CB can stay healthy for a full season and the playoffs, and our 2 DEs can both play over 1000 snaps without injury or wearing down, put more resources into "weapons" for Brady and put up 500 points like we did 4 times from 2007-2012, and then wait for the defense to not be able to stop anyone when it counts in the playoffs and watch the offense lay a brick against a good defense like we did in 2007, 2010, 2011 and 2012 and like Denver did this year in the SB? That sounds like a great plan.
No one's being a chicken little. But if we want to win another SB we're going to have to get a defense that can get the opposing offense off the field and make a stop when the game's on the line. We haven't done that since 2004. There are needs on defense, and ignoring them isn't the answer.
Should we imitate the flavor of the month in Seattle? Do we think that Seattle has re-invented the wheel defensively -- or could it be that they just crushed the draft talentwise.
I'm not arguing that the defense is good enough to win right now....although if it was healthy, it had a shot, but that is unrealistic planning.
My argument is against the line of thought that the game has outgrown Belichick...that his defense doesn't work in the modern game....that the system needs to be scrapped, based on what the Seahawks defense accomplished.
My argument is that the Seahawks defense is one of the top five units I've seen in my 30+ years following the NFL. It's unrealistic to think that any team is going to install the Seahawks system and dominate. Do you think Jacksonville is going to have those results anytime soon?
The answer is the players. When you can put together 3 All-Pros in the same secondary, it doesn't matter which scheme you want to run...you're going to have a dominant defense.
For many of us this isn't revisionist history based upon what Seattle has done. We've been calling for it for a long time. They are just a glaring example of what having an attacking defense with great team speed can do.
In today's NFL with the rule changes I just don't think bend but don't break works any longer. It's transformed into death by a thousand papercuts. Bill on the offensive side has long been exploiting teams with contain defenses with matchups. Yet on defense he would still rather contain than attack.
So yes it's having players but part of that is drafting KJ Wright and not Brandon Spikes. It's about going outside the SEC and finding a Navorro Bowman.
I don't think the game has passed Bill by. I think on defense he's stuck between directions. The old and the new. I'm praying Jamie Collins was a sign that he's ready to go after the athletes who can be both physical and have the speed and athletic ability to be difference makers.
For many of us this isn't revisionist history based upon what Seattle has done. We've been calling for it for a long time. They are just a glaring example of what having an attacking defense with great team speed can do.
In today's NFL with the rule changes I just don't think bend but don't break works any longer. It's transformed into death by a thousand papercuts. Bill on the offensive side has long been exploiting teams with contain defenses with matchups. Yet on defense he would still rather contain than attack.
So yes it's having players but part of that is drafting KJ Wright and not Brandon Spikes. It's about going outside the SEC and finding a Navorro Bowman.
I don't think the game has passed Bill by. I think on defense he's stuck between directions. The old and the new. I'm praying Jamie Collins was a sign that he's ready to go after the athletes who can be both physical and have the speed and athletic ability to be difference makers.
Sure. In an ideal world, the Patriots would have guys that can rush the passer and get home every time, guys that can cover like glue, guys that can blowup linemen consistently. There are 32 teams competing for players, and all 32 would take those guys. BB has been trying to get younger and faster on D in recent years, drafting Collins, Hightower, Jones, Wilson, Cunningham, with high picks to mixed results. Clearly there were some evaluation errors. I don't think he's ever intentionally bypassed "athletes who can be both physical and have the speed and athletic ability to be difference makers". I'm willing to bet that every player he's drafted in the first two rounds has those qualities listed in the Patriots scouting reports. Nobody hits them all. Again, Seattle is doing nothing different that any other team except winning the draft -- especially late, and last offseason, free agency. They don't have any magic dust they sprinkle on their players to make an elite defense. They're not doing anything different than Pete Carroll did here in New England from a schematic standpoint. Unfortunately, instead of Earl Thomas, Kam Chancellor and Richard Sherman, we got Chris Canty, Tebucky Jones, and some guy named Carter who was so unimportant his first name escapes me.
We'll see how Gus Bradley does in Jacksonville following the Seattle blueprint. My guess is not nearly as well.
I completely agree about Pete and Seattle hitting it right. They aren't the point. The mixed philosophy is for me. Brandon Spikes, Jermaine Cunningham, Ron Brace, Jake Bequette and Donte Hightower are one type of defensive player and Jamie Collins is another.
In the secondary it's too bad but the two players he drafted who fit the big corner profile busted out in Ras-I Dowling and the aggressive safety the same in Pat Chung. I love Ryan and Dennard and they're successes but they are in the same mold as Wheatley and Butler who weren't.
So to a degree I agree with you that it's been about missing but it's also been a mixed philosophy.
If this year's draft say they took Louis Nix, Stephon Tuitt and Shamar Stephen I would think OK we're going back to being a 3-4 and changing directions again. I know he wants to be multiple but at some point you become too spread out and your personell doesn't fit any scheme correctly which is where I think we are now. We have 3-4 LBs but 4-3 DEs. We have rotational DTs that fit a 4-3 and can play a 3-4 but they aren't ideal. With Vince in flux there's no 3-4 NT. You have no play making 4-3 DTs to crush the pocket.