The Patriots are changing their evaluation grading system for scouting

[Rob0729]

BB did evolve though. Hence Moss, Gronk, and Hernandez. The problem is we lacked talent the last few years. Scheme can only make up for so much and my criticism of BOB is that he did a worse job of scheming than Josh McD or even Patricia did.

In general fans focus too much on offensive systems. The modern day NFL and really for the last 10 years is a huge melting pot. The difference between EP and West Coast in the NFL is numbers vs colors in play names. Different teams slightly emphasize certain concepts like RPO and outside zone more than others, and that’s largely based on personnel, but play action and synergy between run to pass and pass to run is the bread and butter. The differences make up less than 15-20% of play calls.

Other than the disaster attempt to totally revamp the offense at the start of 2022 season, the Patriots always used the same core system and just added different wrinkles. They never veered very far from the base system. And if anything, it got more complicated as the years went on because of Brady and his mastery of the system.

I mean the Shanahan system is based on the west coast offense that teams were running in the 90s. It was just more radically changed than the Pats have changed their system over the years. I don't think the Pats have ever evolved their offense remotely like Shanahan has modernized the WCO.

 

[Rob0729]

Agree on sight adjustments. However you don't need to be a Mensa candidate to play WR in this offense but you do need to read coverage.

That and the QB is not good at reading defenses and going through progressions which needs to be in concert with the WRs making the proper sight adjustment.


Define "a while"... a few weeks? C'mon...

No...they are known for being talented WRs who run good routes.

Name one receiver who sucked here and went on to become a 1000 yd receiver elsewhere.

Hogan was 2016. Lafell was 2014. Cooks was 2017. Josh Gordon did fine when he was here. A Brown would have easily kicked ass here if was sane. Byrd had his best year here. So did Bourne. Why? Because they run good routes.

I never said you had to be a Mensa candidate. You need football smarts. That is intelligence. It is a different intelligence, but is an intelligence. Just like book smarts and street smarts are different intelligences and people can have one or the other.

And you are asking for something that you obviously would never have. Look at who the Pats usually got in free agency at WR. Most of them were receivers who were never that good or at the end of their career. It was rare they got even an above average WR in free agency. Jonnu Smith was better this year than last. As for draft picks, that is impossible to tell because usually if a receiver doesn't pan out with their original team, they never work out. That is for every team. You rarely see a WR suck on the team they are drafted and then become good elsewhere. Partly because a lot of them are not developed correctly.

And precise route running is also important for the Patriots' system, but so is football smarts. Virtually everyone who comes here says the Pats have one of the most complicated playbook in the league. Chad Ochocinco stated he couldn't pick up the playbook.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I never said you had to be a Mensa candidate. You need football smarts. That is intelligence. It is a different intelligence, but is an intelligence. Just like book smarts and street smarts are different intelligences and people can have one or the other.

The point is the position does not require an advanced level of football intelligence to be successful here.

And you are asking for something that you obviously would never have.

???

Look at who the Pats usually got in free agency at WR. Most of them were receivers who were never that good or at the end of their career. It was rare they got even an above average WR in free agency. Jonnu Smith was better this year than last. As for draft picks, that is impossible to tell because usually if a receiver doesn't pan out with their original team, they never work out. That is for every team. You rarely see a WR suck on the team they are drafted and then become good elsewhere. Partly because a lot of them are not developed correctly.

We are talking about FAs. Your point is the system was too complicated. My point is good WRs either before or during their prime did just fine. Drafted or FAs. You are either good our you aren't.

And precise route running is also important for the Patriots' system, but so is football smarts. Virtually everyone who comes here says the Pats have one of the most complicated playbook in the league. Chad Ochocinco stated he couldn't pick up the playbook.

Excuse. Because he was at the tail end of his career and his ego wouldn't allow him to admit otherwise.

 

[Rob0729]

The point is the position does not require an advanced level of football intelligence to be successful here.

Calrify.

We are talking about FAs. Your point is the system was too complicated. My point is good WRs either before or during their prime did just fine. Drafted or FAs. You are either good our you aren't.

Excuse. Because he was at the tail end of his career and his ego wouldn't allow him to admit otherwise.

I think it does take an advanced level of football intelligence to be successful here. By every metrics the Patriots had the most complicated playbook in the league. In fact, that was the point of changing the offense in 2022. They felt with Brady gone, there was no longer a need for a complicated playbook and they wanted to move to a system where there wasn't any presnap reads and players ran set routes and the QB was supposed to throw to the first read. They literally tried to dumb down the playbook to the point of stupidity.

You pointed to what five or six WRs in 25 years that were successful. Several of them were known for their football intelligence. And some of the guys you listed were very good role players and not even starters. And I forgot to talk about how they changed the offense for Moss because he was such a superior talent.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I think it does take an advanced level of football intelligence to be successful here. By every metrics the Patriots had the most complicated playbook in the league. In fact, that was the point of changing the offense in 2022. They felt with Brady gone, there was no longer a need for a complicated playbook and they wanted to move to a system where there wasn't any presnap reads and players ran set routes and the QB was supposed to throw to the first read. They literally tried to dumb down the playbook to the point of stupidity.

Yes because the playbook was too big and only Brady could run it. Receivers like Bourne and JJSS still complained how hard it was.

You pointed to what five or six WRs in 25 years that were successful. Several of them were known for their football intelligence. And some of the guys you listed were very good role players and not even starters.

Sure and several of them weren't known for their football IQ.

And I forgot to talk about how they changed the offense for Moss because he was such a superior talent.

They did not change the offense. They still ran EP. They ran a ton more shotgun.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

Which was not dissimilar to Sanu…except he never was productive after that.

For all of the complaints Sanu was actually started off pretty good and started taking on more responsibility with the Pats before he suffered a bad high ankle sprain game 11 of the season. He was never the same afterwards, off season surgery did not help.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Going 4-13 after 4 years of a steady decline would have me jumping for joy over a 9-8 season and a playoff berth.

Not me. I am not interested in being a middling NFL team. Each to his own.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

For all of the complaints Sanu was actually started off pretty good and started taking on more responsibility with the Pats before he suffered a bad high ankle sprain game 11 of the season. He was never the same afterwards, off season surgery did not help.

Agreed. Unfortunately we gave up a 2nd round pick for Sanu, and it is hard to argue that was good value. It was a reach. A 3rd would have been fair, Sanu was above average and Brady liked him, but was limited.

 

[mgteich]

Agreed. Unfortunately we gave up a 2nd round pick for Sanu, and it is hard to argue that was good value. It was a reach. A 3rd would have been fair, Sanu was above average and Brady liked him, but was limited.

OK, a Sanu quality player was worth a 3rd, and we badly needed a WR. We overpaid because of the need. Alternatiely, when we needed OT's in the last couple of years, Bill might have overpaid and paid a 2nd or 3rd for a journeyman OT. BB didn't see the value and we are where we are
=======
Hopefully, the evaluations will now be better and the decisions will be better, and the developing of players will be better. Some think that coaching is very, very important, especially with the JAG's that are almost always needed at some point.
====
Thinking that Patricia could develop and coach young OL's was one of the very worst decisions in BB's career.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

OK, a Sanu quality player was worth a 3rd, and we badly needed a WR. We overpaid because of the need. Alternatiely, when we needed OT's in the last couple of years, Bill might have overpaid and paid a 2nd or 3rd for a journeyman OT. BB didn't see the value and we are where we are
=======
Hopefully, the evaluations will now be better and the decisions will be better, and the developing of players will be better. Some think that coaching is very, very important, especially with the JAG's that are almost always needed at some point.
====
Thinking that Patricia could develop and coach young OL's was one of the very worst decisions in BB's career.

The BB and Patricia discussion is as dead as regret for the N'Keal draft pick. Discussing those issues is like beating a dead and buried and rotting horse.

 

[mgteich]

The BB and Patricia discussion is as dead as regret for the N'Keal draft pick. Discussing those issues is like beating a dead and buried and rotting horse.

the choice of Patricia as OL coach is off-limits,
but the Sanu pick is OK for discussion?

Perhaps Ian should set down the parameters of discussion more clearly.
===================================
Belichick made many fine evaluation, trade and draft decisions and many terrible ones. I'm fine with not discussing them every again. But that isn't what folks seem to want to do.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

the choice of Patricia as OL coach is off-limits,
but the Sanu pick is OK for discussion?

Perhaps Ian should set down the parameters of discussion more clearly.
===================================
Belichick made many fine evaluation, trade and draft decisions and many terrible ones. I'm fine with not discussing them every again. But that isn't what folks seem to want to do.

It is not Ian's opinion, but mine. I think Harry and Patricia have been discussed 1000x more than Sanu, but you might be right that it is time to move on from all three.

 

[upstater1]

The BB and Patricia discussion is as dead as regret for the N'Keal draft pick. Discussing those issues is like beating a dead and buried and rotting horse.

I just hope the fans give the new crew some allowance for the kinds of misses EVERY SINGLE franchise makes.

The teams that win have continuity and consistency. There are no winners whose coaches haven't already been there for awhile except for Pederson and the Eagles. And he was fired quickly from that position.

 

[UGAPatsfan]

We jumped in front of the Steelers. The Steelers current WR coach was Thornton's WR coach at Baylor.

Thornton is exactly the type of explosive athlete that doesn't fit the Patriots system. He was useless on the Patriots. Maybe not on the Steelers.

It will be interesting to see if the simpler West Coast system suits Thornton better. Won’t help his slight frame, but could unlock some of that speed.

 

[DW Toys]

Tyquan Thornton was the fastest or second fastest player in his entire draft class, Marcus Jones was also one of the most athletic players in his draft class, so was Cole Strange at his position.

I think the front office could benefit from not insisting on players BB likes on a personal level and judges them solely on football merits... we'll see.

But saying the Patriots under BB didn't draft athletic players is silly.

Mac sucked, now we're not sure who picked him... but he was the biggest problem.

Cousins, It's all about "heart". Mac Jones does not have that element.
Bring me players like Brady, Vrable. Amendola, Edleman. Gronk, Vinaterri, Harrison, Seau, James White and many more and to the lesser degree Malcom Mitchell, Malcom Butler. He was poopy on higher Draft choices. He was great at selecting under-hyped or discarded players that had heart that could help round out our roster. Not 100% perfect but damned good. Top picks...not so much.
DW Toys

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

I just hope the fans give the new crew some allowance for the kinds of misses EVERY SINGLE franchise makes.

The teams that win have continuity and consistency. There are no winners whose coaches haven't already been there for awhile except for Pederson and the Eagles. And he was fired quickly from that position.

Don't worry we have it covered. Robyn Glazer is involved in all aspects.

 

[SammyBlueCat]

Why don't they call me?

 

[signbabybrady]

I just hope the fans give the new crew some allowance for the kinds of misses EVERY SINGLE franchise makes.

The teams that win have continuity and consistency. There are no winners whose coaches haven't already been there for awhile except for Pederson and the Eagles. And he was fired quickly from that position.

I know someone who was able to turn things around quickly.

 

[upstater1]

I know someone who was able to turn things around quickly.

But he had a wealth of knowledge already.

 

[signbabybrady]

But he had a wealth of knowledge already.

Imagine a time when hiring coaches with experience was the popular thing to do