In BB We Trust

[BradyFTW!]

Sigh. Why should I bother responding to you when you didn't bother reading my post.

ONCE AGAIN: No one said you can't criticize Belichick's mistakes. We said, it's preposterous for someone to assume they have a better football philosophy, or can strategize better.

AndyJohnson made an appeal to authority, stating that if Belichick believes something, then it is correct. I pointed out that that's a basic logical fallacy. You said that appeals to authority are fine because Belichick knows more than any of us do. I granted that that was the case, but explained why an appeal to authority is still a basic logical fallacy. All that my post said was that "It's correct because Belichick was behind it"--the premise that Andy based this entire thread on--is not a valid argument. Anything else that you read into it was your misreading. If you don't take issue with people questioning specific choices that Belichick makes, then we're just spinning the wheels here.

And no, not every coach deserves this deference. A lot of coaches have had crappy strategies that were proven to be crappy by their record, everyone from Mouse Davis to Dave Campo and I could go on and on. The point is, Belichick's strategy works. He's been the most successful defensive coach in NFL history. No one's defense has been better.

His body of work certainly suggests that, on the whole, he's one of the best ever. I wholeheartedly agree with that. It also demonstrates that he, like every other human being on the planet, is far from perfect, and is frequently wrong. Sometimes, we recognize this ahead of the fact, and come here to offer this opinion.

You're moving the goalposts, though. At first, you said that Belichick deserves deference because none of us know even a fraction as much about football as he does. What you have to realize, though, is that even a 'dumb' NFL coach is far, far more knowledgeable than anyone on this board. These guys are at the very pinnacle of the profession- they don't just stumble into it. Even Brad Childress. So if your point is that you have to know at least a comparable amount about football to criticize, then there is literally no staff in the NFL that we can take issue with.

On the bright side, it appears that we do have some common ground. I agree that anyone who thinks they could step in and do Belichick's job better than him is an idiot. Frankly, out of every 100 decisions he makes, I'd either agree with or feel unqualified to even offer an opinion on 99 of them. For that other 1, though, I'm in a position where, based on observations and years of prior data, I feel that I have a defensible position. That's completely independent of the Pats' record over the past 8 years, because that track record simply shows that the Patriots' ratio of good decisions to bad ones is better than everyone else's, on the whole. It doesn't even suggest that the Pats haven't made a ton of mistakes along the way.

Anyways, I'd like to be able to discuss it without being called a spoiled, bandwagon, chicken little pessimist. People see what they want to see, though, so go figure. Over the course of about a month I've been called a delusional homer and a delusional hater, which I guess just pretty much proves that I'm neither.

 

[signbabybrady]

The reason why I say offense is because of '07 and '08. Both teams had a great offense, while the defense was mediocre. It seems like BB spends more time with his offense than defense.

I don't know why you guys live in the past when you defend the Pats. You guys always argue with stats 10-20 years ago, instead of 3-5 years ago. From 2005-2008, BB's defensive schemes have been outdated and haven't fooled anybody. They have collapsed in recent championship games and had two super bowls on a silver platter that they let slip away.

Its not just the past. You complain about the D but it has given up 17 and 16 points so far this season and it has been without its best defender for all but one quarter. It shut down Lee Evans and TO and did a pretty good job against the run VS the Jets (I know they had like 100 on the ground). If our offense hadn't been so inept for both games 5 minutes excluded the D might look better too.

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

Belichick got out-coached this past weekend.

...oh, I forgot that the coach is also responsible for the bad play of the QB, WRs, etc.

 

[Satchboogie3]

...oh, I forgot that the coach is also responsible for the bad play of the QB, WRs, etc.

Lets not be ridiculous, the coach staff certainly has to shoulder some of the blame. Surely, they had to be part of the reason why they elected not to run the ball enough. If Brady was in fact audibling the run to passing plays, BB should have made adjustments and gone to screens/slants or told Brady to quit changing all the plays.

This was a team failure, with the offense shoulder the majority of the blame. Win as a team, lose as a team.

 

[DarrylS]

Note sure of the genesis of disbelief in the capabilities of BB, from my view.. the ship is righted and on course, we had two tough games against well known (goes both ways) opponents.. our QB has just come back from a 15.9 game hiatus.. our D is revamped.. not sure what folks expect, but by game 9-10 comes around things will be different...

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

Lets not be ridiculous, the coach staff certainly has to shoulder some of the blame. Surely, they had to be part of the reason why they elected not to run the ball enough. If Brady was in fact audibling the run to passing plays, BB should have made adjustments and gone to screens/slants or told Brady to quit changing all the plays.

This was a team failure, with the offense shoulder the majority of the blame. Win as a team, lose as a team.

I was making fun of a troll. Nobody said the coaches shoulder no blame in any loss. :disagreement:

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

Note sure of the genesis of disbelief in the capabilities of BB, from my view.. the ship is righted and on course, we had two tough games against well known (goes both ways) opponents.. our QB has just come back from a 15.9 game hiatus.. our D is revamped.. not sure what folks expect, but by game 9-10 comes around things will be different...

agreed

eh, the team could win the next 10, then lose one badly, and the same people will be on here b*tching.

 

[maverick4]

There's no question Belichick is one of, if not the best, ever at coaching.

However, many here including the OP make it sound like the coordinators have no power/autonomy, when that is clearly not the case.

A criticism of an offense or defense, while indirectly can be a criticism of Belichick, is more likely to be directed to a coordinator, who is in charge of that unit, and who Belichick delegates much work and decision-making to.

It's not as simplistic as the OP makes it out to be. It's possible to drink the kool aid, trust Belichick's skill and history, and still be critical of the team.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

I'm with Andy on this. This isn't about blindly following or ignoring obvious faults. It's about accepting the man is mortal. Like any player, he's made mistakes. But he's also learned from those mistakes, and over the past 6 seasons, he's done more than enough to earn a little trust and faith from us fans.

He will make mistakes in the future, I have no doubt. But he'll do the right thing more often than not. And when those mistakes happen, he'll address them and learn from them. He's not afraid to admit a mistake (cutting highly-drafted players or guys he traded for), he's quick to point out that they were outcoached after every loss, and he's willing to re-think his views on football (using statistical analysis, visiting other coaches like Urban Meyer each year, going for it on 4th down more often).

BB is not perfect. To expect him to be 100% correct all of the time is unrealistic. But he's the best in the business, as far as I'm concerned. And I take comfort in knowing that when he does make a mistake, he'll do his best to learn from it for the future.

 

[zoostation]

Belichick got out-coached this past weekend.

I think he put together a good scheme. And I also think if Welker plays the Pats win.

This team will start to come together in November and December.

The difference between a Jets fan and a Patriot fan is we celebrate in December and January while you always seem to celebrate in September and October. See ya next time ;--)

 

[Pats726]

It has somehow become vogue to consider fans who have confidence in BB blind, ignorant, unthinking homers. While those that question him, doubt him, and expect the worst, are simply being realists.
Consider this:
In the last 8 years"
1 time we lacked talent to compete (2002)
1 time we lost our GOAT QB
In the other 6 seasons with everything else that got in the way, with all of the criticisms of scheme, play calling, coordinators, drafting, etc, etc there were 6 other seasons
5 were at least to the AFFC (4 to the Sb, and 3 SB wins)
1 was a divisional round loss in the year we tried to 3peat when Bruschi had a stroke

Given that we do not lack talent, as in 2002, and Brady is at QB, history says 5/6th of the time we advance at least to the AFCC with a great shot at winning it, and a great shot at winning the next one, and 1/6th of the time, we only advance to the divisional round.

Explain to me again why believing in BB is the unthinking (Koolaid slurping) approach and doubting him is the well thought out reasoned one.

I think this is the right question...is it blind loyalty as Mazz puts it or believing in one that has a lot of experience and has a track record to show that?? And it may boil down to whether one drinks the kool aid..or thinks that somehow they know more..better....The Felgers of the world will always THINK they know more..and are so clueless they couldn't even run a pee wee football team..but doesn't it come down to that?? You either do see what he has done and more often than not think he's right..or fall into the other camp...And it seems even after many years, so many don't get it. Some are all rah rah at times..until something he does..you don't like..and then it's all wrong. Or if things do not go as planned like last Sunday and...it's off the bandwagon...What does that really say in the large picture?? Fickle fans??

 

[maverick4]

BB is not perfect. To expect him to be 100% correct all of the time is unrealistic. But he's the best in the business, as far as I'm concerned. And I take comfort in knowing that when he does make a mistake, he'll do his best to learn from it for the future.

That's not even the main issue though.

Belichick, like ANY other head coach in the league, isn't on top of every single thing his team does. It's impossible, there's too much to do. He delegates much of it to assistants.

Belichick isn't a mico-manager, though some here try to paint him that way.

Trying to give all blame or credit to Belichick the head coach, is as silly as saying Belichick didn't have any influence when he was rinning rings for Bill Parcells as the Giants coordinator.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

It has somehow become vogue to consider fans who have confidence in BB blind, ignorant, unthinking homers. While those that question him, doubt him, and expect the worst, are simply being realists.
Consider this:
In the last 8 years"
1 time we lacked talent to compete (2002)
1 time we lost our GOAT QB
In the other 6 seasons with everything else that got in the way, with all of the criticisms of scheme, play calling, coordinators, drafting, etc, etc there were 6 other seasons
5 were at least to the AFFC (4 to the Sb, and 3 SB wins)
1 was a divisional round loss in the year we tried to 3peat when Bruschi had a stroke

Given that we do not lack talent, as in 2002, and Brady is at QB, history says 5/6th of the time we advance at least to the AFCC with a great shot at winning it, and a great shot at winning the next one, and 1/6th of the time, we only advance to the divisional round.

Explain to me again why believing in BB is the unthinking (Koolaid slurping) approach and doubting him is the well thought out reasoned one.

I agree.

Trusting someone with a track record of great success is not blind obeisance, but rather good judgment.

I see no evidence that the great coaches somehow "lose it" at some point in their career. Like Jack Welch, they do what they do until they get tired of doing it and then step aside. I guess there's a risk of burn out, which leads some like **** Vermeil and Bill Cowher to step aside for a while, but I see no evidence of burnout in Belichick and I suspect he'd be the first to recognize it if it were creeping up on him.

For now, I'll take another moderate sip of the Kool Aid with my breakfast this morning and look forward to another season in which Belichick, his staff and players will achieve the Krafts' one objective for the team every season: field a team that is competitive to make the Playoffs and make some noise in them.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

That's not even the main issue though.

Belichick, like ANY other head coach in the league, isn't on top of every single thing his team does. It's impossible, there's too much to do. He delegates much of it to assistants.

Belichick isn't a mico-manager, though some here try to paint him that way.

Trying to give all blame or credit to Belichick the head coach, is as silly as saying Belichick didn't have any influence when he was rinning rings for Bill Parcells as the Giants coordinator.

That is true enough, though BB has a lot more influence in the organization than many other HCs. With Pioli gone, this is really his show to run, and even his choice in coordinators is part of his influence on the overall team. But based on the direction BB has led things, I have faith in the FO as a whole to do well, and to fix the problems that pop up from time to time.

 

[Tunescribe]

Some questions/issues brought up by people during the past months

Loss of McDaniels
Loss of Pioli
Questionable Cassel/Vrabel trade
Questionable Seymour trade
Questionable Burgess trade
Passing on top flight LT prospect in round 1 of draft
Passing on all the top linebackers in rounds 1 & 2 of the draft
Trading of Hobbs for low level picks that could have been gotten in other ways
Failure to maintain a fullback
Questionable decision not to give Brady a lot more time in the preseason games
Apparent over-reliance upon the health of one defensive player
Questionable game plan v. Jets on both sides of the ball

Anyone who thinks that such a long list of questions/issues should leave no room for doubt, and should be ignored in favor of "In Bill We Trust" is kidding himself. No human being is beyond legitimate questioning, especially when the list of questions/issues is so long. Having a reservoir of confidence based upon past performance is not the same thing as blindly following, nor should it be.

In your list, only the following are possibly open to question by anyone who knows anything about NFL football:

Vrabel trade
Seymour trade
Passing on all the top linebackers in rounds 1 & 2 of the draft
Trading of Hobbs for low level picks that could have been gotten in other ways

I'm sure there are logical and completely justifiable reasons for these four personnel maneuvers that, for obvious reasons, will never be made public. Now, find me a team/coach without a similar list of "questionable moves" in the recent offseason and your stance might have some merit. Otherwise, I suggest you try learning more about pro football and specifically, the Patriots team-building business philosophy.

 

[The_Riddler]

1. Hiring the non-imaginative Dean Pees to allow mediocre QB's to look like HOFers

2. Passing on Rey Maualuga twice in the 2009 NFL draft

3. Deltha O'Neal

4. Arming TB with a #1 WR called Reche Caldwell

5. Not calling a timeout during the Colts AFCCG in Indy as Peyton stood there letting precious seconds tick away before the dive call to Addai. Camera focused on BB who had the deer in headlights look 25 precious seconds ticked away on TB. Inexcusable.......

6. Constantly dealing down for non-impact players who are more cost effective instead of taking the Jets approach and dealing up for guys like Sanchez and Revis......

7. Maroney, CJackson, KOC

Give me some more time, I'll think of others, I definately am a Pats fan, but I do not drink the koolaid, I'll call it like it is.

 

[fair catch fryar]

In BB I trust until someone better comes along. WTF! I mean seriously, this guy is the best out there. Sure he makes mistakes, but those mistakes ultimately make him better. Who here on this board really believes they know better than Bill Belichick?

 

[fair catch fryar]

After what BB let Rex Ryan do to us (I won't go into detail as I've been warned), no, I don't trust him.

If you had a dog which let you get mauled by robbers whilst it played with a bone, what would you think of it?

Ryan had his way with us, the disgusting slob.

What a great analogy! You hit that one right on the mark! JC! Get a grip.....or just root for the Jets if you really believe Rex Ryan is a better coach than BB.

 

[upstater1]

AndyJohnson made an appeal to authority, stating that if Belichick believes something, then it is correct. I pointed out that that's a basic logical fallacy. You said that appeals to authority are fine because Belichick knows more than any of us do. I granted that that was the case, but explained why an appeal to authority is still a basic logical fallacy. All that my post said was that "It's correct because Belichick was behind it"--the premise that Andy based this entire thread on--is not a valid argument. Anything else that you read into it was your misreading. If you don't take issue with people questioning specific choices that Belichick makes, then we're just spinning the wheels here.



His body of work certainly suggests that, on the whole, he's one of the best ever. I wholeheartedly agree with that. It also demonstrates that he, like every other human being on the planet, is far from perfect, and is frequently wrong. Sometimes, we recognize this ahead of the fact, and come here to offer this opinion.

You're moving the goalposts, though. At first, you said that Belichick deserves deference because none of us know even a fraction as much about football as he does. What you have to realize, though, is that even a 'dumb' NFL coach is far, far more knowledgeable than anyone on this board. These guys are at the very pinnacle of the profession- they don't just stumble into it. Even Brad Childress. So if your point is that you have to know at least a comparable amount about football to criticize, then there is literally no staff in the NFL that we can take issue with.

On the bright side, it appears that we do have some common ground. I agree that anyone who thinks they could step in and do Belichick's job better than him is an idiot. Frankly, out of every 100 decisions he makes, I'd either agree with or feel unqualified to even offer an opinion on 99 of them. For that other 1, though, I'm in a position where, based on observations and years of prior data, I feel that I have a defensible position. That's completely independent of the Pats' record over the past 8 years, because that track record simply shows that the Patriots' ratio of good decisions to bad ones is better than everyone else's, on the whole. It doesn't even suggest that the Pats haven't made a ton of mistakes along the way.

Anyways, I'd like to be able to discuss it without being called a spoiled, bandwagon, chicken little pessimist. People see what they want to see, though, so go figure. Over the course of about a month I've been called a delusional homer and a delusional hater, which I guess just pretty much proves that I'm neither.

I've been pretty consistent that I'm open to critiques of Belichick's decision-making. And critiques of his behavior.

Heck, let's try this one: I disagree with an all-out blitz on 3rd down late in the Super Bowl. Bad call, and I said it before the TD. As for personal behavior, he was very un-Belichickian during that game, as he saw the need to take over strategies on the black board, back to the action, during gameplay. He was panicking, or else he had lost confidence in his coaches. That's all fine.

This is precisely though why I'm behind Andy's point: "It's correct bbecause Bill is behind it." This speaks to his overall philosophy, his strategy. I do feel it's correct because Bill's behind it. Gameday decision-making etc. is something that he should be called on. But this board has been redesigning the defense. That's fun to do as a football fan and I'm open to it, such as, "Hey, what if we blitzed Adalius more." That's good. But, this is just wrong: "Belichick needs to adopt an all-out blitzing mentality, needs to become aggressive like Rex Ryan." That to me is just preposterous.

 

[fair catch fryar]

1. Hiring the non-imaginative Dean Pees to allow mediocre QB's to look like HOFers

2. Passing on Rey Maualuga twice in the 2009 NFL draft

3. Deltha O'Neal

4. Arming TB with a #1 WR called Reche Caldwell

5. Not calling a timeout during the Colts AFCCG in Indy as Peyton stood there letting precious seconds tick away before the dive call to Addai. Camera focused on BB who had the deer in headlights look 25 precious seconds ticked away on TB. Inexcusable.......

6. Constantly dealing down for non-impact players who are more cost effective instead of taking the Jets approach and dealing up for guys like Sanchez and Revis......

7. Maroney, CJackson, KOC

Give me some more time, I'll think of others, I definately am a Pats fan, but I do not drink the koolaid, I'll call it like it is.

You go for it Debbie Downer. While your at it, go ahead and disregard the loss of a 1st round pick in 08, coaching a team to an 16-0 record only to lose because of a miracle catch, and quite a few others I'm sure other posters could recall better than I.