If you were Kraft and this season doesn’t improve, do you move on from Bill after this season?

[mike_usagisan]

The thing is if the Bengals lose a couple more games before the trade deadline, they might trade Higgins. If they trade him this year, I think there is zero chance he is coming to New England.

You're right, because if they trade him, it's going to be at least a 2nd, since they'll recoup a 3rd just by letting him walk. And a huge salary. That's enough to turn Bill off, though it's a trade I think we should make.

 

[203Pat]

Unless he's bringing an top 10 QB with him he's not doing any better than Bill. The idea that any of these coaches would improve this team is laughable.

The game has passed Bill by. They have been undisciplined and sloppy for the last 4 years now and we are below .500 post Brady and moving in the wrong direction. Bill had a good run and will have a statue at Gillette but it is time to move on.

 

[203Pat]

That Super Bowl was an embarrassment. The players weren't hitting; the offenses were inept. One of the worst played Super Bowls ever. You're making a lot of excuses for McVay here. I don't think he's anywhere near as good a coach as Belichick even now.

If this is your argument I am not even going to engage.

 

[upstater1]

Letting Myers Walk and instead signing Juju
Cole Strange in round 1
Redoing Jonnu's contract adding a TON of dead money before he even played.
Having Patricia be Offensive Coordinator essentially wasting a year of being able to evaluate Mac with a real offense.
Not making a legitimate office for Dhop
Not making a play for any of the other receivers that Moved.
Only drafting bust receivers with injury issues.
Sending out Olinemen away for pennies on the dollar.

BB has made some good calls throughout the years (letting JC Jackson get a brinks truck from the Chargers) but he's also made a ton of really bad calls. The team's talent level is super low.

1. Yet the vast majority of fans here liked the signing; and while Meyers was here, no one thought he was a #1, and he wouldn't be the improvement this team needs anyway.
2. So who would you have taken? Go back and look at the draft. People here were advocating for Kaiir Elam and Devin Floyd. Some liked Devonte Wyatt. There were a lot of busts or guys who don't play from that first round. Let's say they picked a WR that people were advocating for. Treylon Burks for instance. He was available. 6 receptions in 4 games this season. 30 receptions last year. He's in N'Keal Harry territory. Christian Watson, Wandale Robinson, John Metchie. These are the first 4 WRs taken. NOTHING, BUST, BUST. Then Tyquan Thornton and Skyy Moore, again NOTHING AND NOTHING. There was one WR out of 7 to take in the 1st 2 rounds, and most teams passed on that guy twice: Pickens. All the other 6 WRs have been huge disappointments. The other guys we were looking at have done nothing.
3. I think you're misreading the Jonnu contract. It allowed us to get out from under.
4. Mac is not the guy. It is very clear. Patricia is totally irrelevant to all this now.
5. Hopkins is not the guy you remember. Last 4 years he's at half his old production and trending downwards. 32 year olds who catch 3 or 4 balls a game are not what we're looking for in a #1, especially with a horrendous QB.
6. What WRs? Tyreek Hill? You think he was wanted to come here? We didn't have the top 10 picks for a Stephon Diggs or a Jaylen Waddle. You can't trade what you don't have.
7. Shaq Mason was underwhelming at the Bucs and is no longer the guy he used to be. He signed for pennies on the dollar.

The team's talent is not super low. Just because we lack talent at QB and WR does not mean the rest of the team lacks talent.

 

[Triumph]

So you're now in the acceptance stage for the smurf. Great it's about time. Yes they will need to draft a QB fortunately next year's class is very deep so they might be in luck.

Mac Troll 1

It's over for your binky boi.

 

[Steve102]

What is it about McVay that impresses people? He went 5 and 12 last year.

He was thoroughly depantsed by Belichick just 4 1/2 years ago.

Yes, he won a pattycake Super Bowl in which both teams played like dreck but since then he is 7-14. Not very good. He has stars all over the field as well. Stafford, Cupp, a bunch of good #2 WRs, Aaron Donald.

Yeah, I am not on that program either. He's a media darling but he's just meh IMO. They'll be all about the kid in Miami soon enough.

I don't think it's just Higgins though. We need to double dip at WR, if not Jeudy, someone else.

The only place I cut Bill slack is I just don't see the WR he should have targeted in free agency last year that would have made the difference. Lazzard seemed like the top choice and he seemed pretty committed to the Jets. And we don't draft high enough for a premier WR draft pick. And the high priced free agent OTs aren't really working out that well, so sticking with Brown and someone in the draft was the way to go. I just don't want them to be complacent this off season, whether that's Bill making the call or someone else. No more buying cheap on the Parkers of the world.

Yeah, I can see that. There's always a lot of guys that are really WR2's that might really be borderline 3s.

People keep saying this but other than taking Tyquan Thornton I want to know about the mismanagement. What exactly are you advociating? He made a bad pick for WR in the 2nd round. Acknowledged. Is that complete mismanagement?

Is there any other team that has spent more or allocated more resources (draft, etc.) on receiving and OL in the last 3 years? I actually believe in this OL and think it has a lot of talent. I think the QB makes them look horrible, the complete reverse of a QB making the OL look good. We have allocated a ton of resources to the OL and with a decent QB, they'd look a helluva lot better than playing in front of the guy who panics and runs out of the pocket right into the head of a pass rush. He is Zach Wilson without the legs.

As for receivers: Algholor, Bourne, Parker, Hunter Henry, Gesicki, Jonnu Smith, Smith-Schuster. Seems we have spent a ton in free agency, but we can't find a #1. And that's because they aren't available in free agency.

So what would have been a better alternative?

I am advocating that since 2018, Bill has lost his fastball on the offensive side of the ball and should have more help buying the groceries. Thornton isn't the poster child of that IMO. N'keal Harry is. Jonnu Smith is. Nelson Agholor is. Offenses have gotten more dynamic and faster, and Bill has tried to counter that by building a solid defense. Ok, fine. But the offense is just lacking playmakers that stress defenses. People talk about how Bill can take away your best weapon, or stop the thing that you want to do most. Ok, great, but what about the Patriots offense? What do they do well that teams must stop? Not freakin' much after 4 weeks.

None of it matters, because they continue to give away points, and they aren't going to win unless they clean that up.

 

[sb1]

Mac Troll 1

It's over for your binky boi.

You sound mad and triggered. U ok?

I'm giving you a compliment, it took a while but I'm glad you finally accepted the truth about your boy the smurf. I'm glad you admit your binky has no future in this league and never belonged in the league to begin with. He was a bad draft pick by Bill when if they really wanted a QB in the later rounds they could have had Sam Howell who is much better than the smurf and perhaps more upside than Jones too. Time to find a good QB now.

 

[Thelonious]

I know I keep saying it, but any discussion of Bill which does not consistently distinguish between Bill the Coach and Bill the GM is utterly pointless. Keeping this distinction in mind doesn't immediately reveal the solution, of course, but it does clarify one's thinking as one seeks that solution.

In my mind, Bill the Coach is very much worth keeping, both for frankly emotional/fanboy reasons: He's our long-term, successful coach whom we are accustomed to rooting for and whom we would love to see reach his legacy goals; and for practical reasons: he is still an excellent game day and game scheme coach, worth keeping around purely on merit. He's our Coach, fercryin'outloud. As a GM, Bill is at this point a bust who absolutely must be gotten rid of if the team is to rebuild into a genuinely competitive group. Everybody by now understands why, right? I mean, we all saw the game yesterday.

Unfortunately, of course, the two guys - one of whom we'd like to see stay, the other of whom who has to go - are one in the same person. Given that theologians have been haggling over a triune God for centuries without reaching consensus, we are unlikely to unravel this conundrum any time soon. We have to decide. The word "decide" derives from the Latin to cut off or cut away. I guess this shows the ugliness of our situation. In any decision beyond the most obvious ones, in doing or having one thing, you forego doing or having the alternative. If you keep Bill the coach, you are forced to keep Bill the GM. If you ditch Bill the GM, you lose Bill the Coach. It's a genuine conundrum, a problem without a tidy or wholly satisfying resolution, hence the interminable squabbling about it. It's a Gordian Knot, and the only way to undo the knot is to do some seemingly destructive and painful cutting. Hopefully it's not a Judgment of Solomon deal.

This is what I would do, what the Krafts should do, in my judgment, since this is obviously an owners-level decision. They have to offer Bill two and two only options: 1) You must give up any role beyond the conventional purely advisory input any head coach would have in the franchise's GM work. The extent to which the GM takes your input into account will be entirely at the discretion of the GM. Obviously, we will hire a GM wise enough to value your counsel, but the GM has the final say on GM responsibilities. You will remain as head coach. 2) If that is not acceptable, Bill, you've gotta go.

Obviously, the Krafts, whichever way Bill chooses to go, will make sure every face-saving and supportive gesture is made going forward. We will honor and celebrate what Bill has been, what he has given us, whichever option he chooses. But, to borrow a phrase, it is what it is, and it is not what it is not.

 

[upstater1]

Yep. I think we have to go for Higgins because he might be the only guy available with major upside. And I think the Bengals are willing to let him walk because of all the money they threw at Burrows. I don't know how many years Evans has left, but I feel like he's the guy Bill would target instead.

Or look for someone on a trade, even though it's going to be pricey both in terms of picks and salary.

I never liked Evans. I never liked him for Brady. He's at the end of his usefulness anyway. I think he's a dog. He's not all that fast, he doesn't get separation. He is a poor man's Deandre Hopkins or Anquan Boldin. He highpoints balls and fights for catches, but I fear we'd be getting someone closer to Devaunte Parker than the old Hopkins.

I do like the idea of Higgins a lot and would give up a #1 for him, but this is all useless really unless we know who the QB is,.

 

[gtfanboy]

I know I keep saying it, but any discussion of Bill which does not consistently distinguish between Bill the Coach and Bill the GM is utterly pointless. Keeping this distinction in mind doesn't immediately reveal the solution, of course, but it does clarify one's thinking as one seeks that solution.

In my mind, Bill the Coach is very much worth keeping, both for frankly emotional/fanboy reasons: He's our long-term, successful coach whom we are accustomed to rooting for and whom we would love to see reach his legacy goals; and for practical reasons: he is still an excellent game day and game scheme coach, worth keeping around purely on merit. He's our Coach, fercryin'outloud. As a GM, Bill is at this point a bust who absolutely must be gotten rid of if the team is to rebuild into a genuinely competitive group. Everybody by now understands why, right? I mean, we all saw the game yesterday.

Unfortunately, of course, the two guys - one of whom we'd like to see stay, the other of whom who has to go - are one in the same person. Given that theologians have been haggling over a triune God for centuries without reachins consensus, we are unlikely to unravel this conundrum any time soon. We have to decide. The word "decide" derives from the Latin to cut off or cut away. I guess this shows the ugliness of our situation. In any decision beyond the most obvious ones, in doing or having one thing, you forego doing or having the alternative. If you keep Bill the coach, you are forced to keep Bill the GM. If you ditch Bill the GM, you lose Bill the Coach. It's a genuine conundrum, a problem without a tidy or wholly satisfying resolution, hence the interminable squabbling about it. It's a Gordian Knot, and the only way to undo the knot is to do some painful cutting. Hopefully it's not a Judgment of Solomon deal.

This what I would do, what the Krafts should do, in my judgment, since this is obviously an owners-level decision. They have to offer Bill two and two only options: 1) You must give up any role beyond the conventional purely advisory input any head coach would have in the franchise's GM work. The extent to which the GM takes your input into account will be entirely at the discretion of the GM. Obviously, we will hire a GM wise enough to value your counsel, but the GM has the final say on GM responsibilities. You will remain as head coach. 2) If that is not acceptable, Bill, you've gotta go.

Obviously, the Krafts, whichever way Bill chooses to go, will make sure every face-saving and supportive gesture is made going forward. We will honor and celebrate what Bill has been, what he has given us, whichever option he chooses. But, to borrow a phrase, it is what it is, and it is not what it is not.

I think that's the thing. I think most would agree that Bill the coach is worth keeping but he will refuse to stay on unless he gets to keep the GM part. His pride is too much to let that go.

 

[Jangles]

I’m not a fan of teams firing coaches midway through the season, and I think Belichick has earned the right to be shown the door with some grace.

I do think it’s time though. He’s surrounded himself with yes men, and refuses to adapt to the league around him. It’s clear now Brady was able cover for his limitations, and that’s gone.

 

[mike_usagisan]

I never liked Evans. I never liked him for Brady. He's at the end of his usefulness anyway. I think he's a dog. He's not all that fast, he doesn't get separation. He is a poor man's Deandre Hopkins or Anquan Boldin. He highpoints balls and fights for catches, but I fear we'd be getting someone closer to Devaunte Parker than the old Hopkins.

I do like the idea of Higgins a lot and would give up a #1 for him, but this is all useless really unless we know who the QB is,.

I think the QB is Mac plus a high draft QB. When Mac craps the bed, we move on and hopefully that gives a rookie a time to get ramped up.

 

[upstater1]

Yeah, I am not on that program either. He's a media darling but he's just meh IMO. They'll be all about the kid in Miami soon enough.

Yeah, I can see that. There's always a lot of guys that are really WR2's that might really be borderline 3s.

I am advocating that since 2018, Bill has lost his fastball on the offensive side of the ball and should have more help buying the groceries. Thornton isn't the poster child of that IMO. N'keal Harry is. Jonnu Smith is. Nelson Agholor is. Offenses have gotten more dynamic and faster, and Bill has tried to counter that by building a solid defense. Ok, fine. But the offense is just lacking playmakers that stress defenses. People talk about how Bill can take away your best weapon, or stop the thing that you want to do most. Ok, great, but what about the Patriots offense? What do they do well that teams must stop? Not freakin' much after 4 weeks.

None of it matters, because they continue to give away points, and they aren't going to win unless they clean that up.

I don't disagree with you that we are way behind on offense.

I am asking what could have been done.

Because missing out on 2 WRs in Harry and Thornton is not all that uncommon. I just posted earlier that there were 8 WRs taken in the Tyquan draft in the first 2 rounds, and every one of them is a bust except for Pickens. That's 1 out of 8. That's rough. Talk to the Titans about Treylon Burks taken at #19.

Even if we go back to the N'Keal Harry year, there were 9 guys that went. 3 are fantastic in AJ Brown, Deebo Samuel and Metcalf (who went at the end of the 2nd round). But no one talks about the WRs who all went before Metcalf like Arcega-Whiteside, Isabella, Mecole Hardman, and yes Harry. There were a lot of busts. You look at those two draft where we expended resources and the hit rate was 5 out of 15. 33% chance. 1st 2 rounds. That's normal for the NFL. It's worse than a flip of the coin.

I agree they blew those 2 picks, but I am saying it's not like this isn't how the draft goes all the time.

And some would argue that Belichick designs the offense this way as though he doesn't want a stud #1 receiver, which is absurd.

 

[203Pat]

I think the QB is Mac plus a high draft QB. When Mac craps the bed, we move on and hopefully that gives a rookie a time to get ramped up.

I think they're washing the sheets in Gillete as we speak.

 

[203Pat]

I don't disagree with you that we are way behind on offense.

I am asking what could have been done.

Because missing out on 2 WRs in Harry and Thornton is not all that uncommon. I just posted earlier that there were 8 WRs taken in the Tyquan draft in the first 2 rounds, and every one of them is a bust except for Pickens. That's 1 out of 8. That's rough. Talk to the Titans about Treylon Burks taken at #19.

Even if we go back to the N'Keal Harry year, there were 9 guys that went. 3 are fantastic in AJ Brown, Deebo Samuel and Metcalf (who went at the end of the round). But no one talks about the WRs who all went before Metcalf like Arcega-Whiteside, Isabella, Mecole Hardman, and yes Harry. There were a lot of busts. You look at those two draft where we expended resources and the hit rate was 5 out of 15. 33% chance. 1st 2 rounds. That's normal for the NFL. It's worse than a flip of the coin.

I agree they blew those 2 picks, but I am saying it's not like this isn't how the draft goes all the time.

And some would argue that Belichick designs the offense this way as though he doesn't want a stud #1 receiver, which is absurd.

"You can draft busts too!". Trust us we know.

 

[Thelonious]

As for Mac, I see his limitations both physical and attitudinal, but I don't think he's been given anything like a fair shake to this point. I don't think he has at all had the support a responsible coach/GM provides to a first-round qb. If I had to guess, I'd guess he is to a modest but unsurmountable extent not quite good enough, but that would be a guess based on some really corrupt data, so it is not a judgment I would yet make. I do understand the view of those who feel they've seen enough to move on, but I think any certainty on the matter is, even at this late date, premature. Short version: it' a mess.

 

[Thelonious]

I think that's the thing. I think most would agree that Bill the coach is worth keeping but he will refuse to stay on unless he gets to keep the GM part. His pride is too much to let that go.

That may well be so. The whole thing is sort of inescapably tragic and painful. It really is.

 

[sb1]

The game has passed Bill by. They have been undisciplined and sloppy for the last 4 years now and we are below .500 post Brady and moving in the wrong direction. Bill had a good run and will have a statue at Gillette but it is time to move on.

Pretty obvious that Bill needed Brady a lot more than vice versa.

Maybe in a previous era where defense could play defense it would have been the other way around. Not today though. The last 20 years have been the era of offense. It's wonderful having a defensive mastermind and all but how important is that now in today's game? Brady and ONLY Brady was the missing piece that made Bill a complete coach with tools to coach this team to success on both sides of the ball.

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

What is it about McVay that impresses people? He went 5 and 12 last year.

He was thoroughly depantsed by Belichick just 4 1/2 years ago.

Yes, he won a pattycake Super Bowl in which both teams played like dreck but since then he is 7-14. Not very good.

the rams sold the house for that one super bowl, they lost their talent and important pieces after that super bowl and had no money and no draft picks

He has stars all over the field as well. Stafford, Cupp, a bunch of good #2 WRs, Aaron Donald.

no, they have not many stars. except kupp and donald they have no blue chip player. their wr behind kupp are not better than our wr except nakua who they developed of a 5 rd. rookie

 

[Rob0729]

I’m not a fan of teams firing coaches midway through the season, and I think Belichick has earned the right to be shown the door with some grace.

I do think it’s time though. He’s surrounded himself with yes men, and refuses to adapt to the league around him. It’s clear now Brady was able cover for his limitations, and that’s gone.

They will never fire Belichick in season. The Pats could be 1-10 and they aren't firing him in season. If and when he is fired, it will be in the offseason and they will let him resign rather than be fired.