I still think that the 2011 draft sucked

[DaBruinz]

Gillette doesn't have a hard surface. It's not like they play in the old Vet.

Is FredfromDartmouth still yammering on this idiocy about the field at Gilette being the cause of injuries??? And he wonders why so many people laugh at him and think he's a moron.

 

[DaBruinz]

For me, a high pick on a RB is top 3 rounds, especially for a RB by committee team. Its probably not a great choice of words, but my point was I could understand one of the RB picks in the top 75, but not both. And while depth is important at RB, you don't draft backups in the top 75. I wouldn't draft any RB in the first round for this team, unless they were a truly elite, top level talent.

On the other players you mentioned, they are all evaluation errors which has clearly been a problem of recent times. And for all we know Ridley and Vereen could join them (I certainly hope not), but those players should have no effect on the positions of picks going forward, they simply need to do a better job in their evaluations.

There is a very plausible theory for you. In a RB by Committee situation, the Pats could value the RB position equally and not look at them as starter vs back-up. If that is the case, then picking the 2 RBs when then did would make sense. Oh, and it still makes sense when you take into consideration that the Pats didn't actually have more than 1 RB on the roster at the time of the draft.

And it's not like Vereen and Ridley were over-drafted, like some people claim. Vereen had a grade of a low 2nd to low 4th and Ridley had a grade of High 3rd to high 7th (with the NFL Draft Advisory Board telling him a 3rd, not that I care what they say, but I know some of you do).

And Ridley played very well for the Pats in his limited time. Unless I missed that the 440 yards and 5.1 YPC are some how bad..

 

[DaBruinz]

Sellers, Good retort, but this was interesting reading about the best 40 Draft choices in the last ten years by MYNFLDRAFT.COM, I am sure not the supreme authority but his verbiage is no less important than any other who write this stuff. I might have an argument with some:

This space held the copyrighted information from MyNFLDraft.com and has been redacted

What is there to say? Brady is not only the top pick of the last ten years, but arguably the best draft choice in the history of any sport. I’ll just leave you with the list of quarterbacks selected ahead of Brady in this draft: Chad Pennington, Giovanni Carmazzi, Chris Redman, Tee Martin, Marc Bulger, and Spergon Wynn.

They irony is three we drafted and three we got sometime in their careers as a trade or in FA and another three that we are looking at as possible Pats in FA this year. ................This is my point.

DW Toys

A few things you failed to mention about that page:
1) The article was written from the 1997 draft through the 2007 draft.
2) The problem is that covers 11 years, not 10.
3) Who is "MyNFLDraft.com"? What sort football background do they have?

 

[ayjackson]

Really don`t agree with the OP. I think there`s a lot of potential in Solder, Dowling, Vereen, Ridley, Mallett and Cannon. I don`t know how you write off a draft with that much potential after one year of apprenticeships and injuries.

I also have no problem with the back-to-back RB picks. The position needs a committee approach, imo, and seriously needed some youth thrown into the mix. I do question whether the two picks were straight off the value board though or if they had a plan to draft two running backs early-ish.

 

[Joey007]

Trust me the 2011 draft did not suck for us. Compared to the 2010 draft it's not as good of a draft. But a draft that TRULY sucks is our 2006-2007, and 2008 drafts (other than Mayo, Goskowski) In last year's draft we got our future mainstay at left tackle, a cornerback with huge potential if he can stay healthy, two running backs with one having lead back potential and one that could replace Kevin Faulk, possibly our future starting QB, and a early 2nd round talent OG that we got in the 5th round who could start one day. Trust me, our draft DID NOT suck. In fact, these last two years have been our best drafting since the early 2000's.

 

[Ivan]

You asked for some substantiation. I can only suppose this is accurate. This was an article from Forbes two day before the 2010 Draft by Monte Burke. I agree 2010 was a decent class for the Pats and as decent, but that 2011 is still questionable at best.
Here is the Pats vaunted Draft talent and I agree:

Behind the Numbers
To find the NFL's best and worst teams at drafting, we looked at the last three years of drafts for all 32 NFL teams.

Might as well have cited Womens Health as your source. A "3 year analysis" should be written on toilet paper because that's what it's worth. I'm guessing the author looked at his infant child when it was 6 months old and concluded it would never amount to anything.

You guys are so desperate for anything to support the conclusion the Patriots can't draft that you have to dig deep down for garbage like this, pretty pathetic.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

Is FredfromDartmouth still yammering on this idiocy about the field at Gilette being the cause of injuries??? And he wonders why so many people laugh at him and think he's a moron.

The original turf was horrible; green asphalt. That is why they changed it. The new turf is a lot better but still not as nice as grass.

 

[Ivan]

Lmao, the auther cited has ZERO experience in football and a degree in religion. He writes mostly about CEO's and fishing. Doesn't get much more absurd than having him as your "expert" on the NFL Draft.

Lemme go see if i can find out what Doris Kearns Goodwin had to say about the draft.....................

 

[rdf63]

Solder - will be the starting tackle for several years with Probowl potential. He showed some real raw strength and can become the best OL drafted that year.
Dowling - when he was healthy looked very good and will be starting cb next year. If he didn't have the injury in his senior year at Virginia, could have been a top 15 pick. Possible VA first round pick Minnifield talks incredibly highly about Dowling.
Vereen - too early to tell but has the ability to be a very good pass catcher. Surprised how highly the Pats got him and thought he would have been available mid to late 3rd round.
Ridley - without a doubt, the most talented rb the Pats have. He really showed raw power and speed he had at LSU which the Pats badly needed and have lacked. Gained 400 yds playing p/t and sometimes not at all. He is ready to play a LOT more next year.
Mallett - Brady's replacement with first round talent. Some thought he was the most talented qb in the entire draft. If Hoyer is traded he is the future starting qb but young enough to trade to desperate teams for a 1st rd pick.
Cannon - didn't even know if he would play last year and surprised a lot of Pats fans. He will be the starting guard next year if Water's retires. High 2nd round talent and I think the best steal in the draft.

The Pats got starters in the draft (2) OL , 1 cb, at least 1 rb and potential starting qb who could demand a 1st round if traded. To be honest, Vereen was the most questionable pick but the Pats got 4 starters out of it (Solder, Dowling, Ridley, Cannon) It is already a pretty good draft and if the players stay healthy, could be very good.

 

[captain stone]

I know a lot of us were dissapointed after the 2011 draft, and oddly enough, we were right. The draft was not a disaster, but the Patriots came into it with a ton of picks and a desperate need for a pass rushers but came away with a lot less than most of us expected. The strength of the draft was the pass rushers but somehow BB whiffed on them all.

Compare the Patriots draft with what the Ravens did. With practically half the draft ammunition, the Ravens came away with a starting CB in Jimmy Smith and a very talented WR in Torrey Smith. In addition they got six sacks from Pernell McPhee who they stole in the 5'th round. The Patriots needed a WR, CB, and pass rusher; they could have gotten all these guys but BB was whiffed.

Solder was good as befits his lofty position at 17. Although he is a moose, he had trouble with speed rushers.

Dowling has talent but came in with an injury history which does not work well with the hard surface at Gillette. He may turn out to be a great picks but it is still too early to tell. If McCourty returns to form and Ras-I can shake the injury bug, the Patriots will have found their outside anchors.

Shane Vereen was the Big Whiff. Instead of taking Torry Smith they took Vereen, an indecisive runner. BB should never ever be involved with WR and RB picks again; he got it right with Ridley but that is unusual for him.

Without reading any of the other 46 posts, many of which I'm sure did nothing but kiss Bill's ass,
this is what's wrong with last year's draft (and almost every other one since 2004): over-drafting,
by neglecting value in favor of locking on a target at the expense of the current situation.

Example #1: Trading 28 to NO instead of 33, thereby removing the chance to draft Mo Wilkerson or Cam Heyward. Zero teams from 29-32 were going to draft Mark Ingram, so there was no reason whatsoever to deal that pick. The obviously better move would've been to wait until the next day and create an overnight market for 33. At worst, we settle for the same offer Bill accepted for 28.

Example #2: Glas-IR Dowling at 33. Due to his injury-riddled senior season, he was a late 2nd-round value who could've been likely available at 56. Instead, Bill ignores Jabaal Sheard & Brooks Reed, or maybe DaQuan Bowers, better values at a position of greater need. IR wasn't even the best DB available at 33 - that would've been Aaron Williams.

Example #3: Shane Vereen at 56. A mid-late 3rd-round value who could've been likely available at the pick used for Steven Ridley. CBs Glas-IR or Brandon Harris would've been a better value here; so too would've been WR Torrey Smith & OLB Justin Houston. Vereen wasn't even the best RB available at 56 - that would've been Mikel Leshore.

Example #4: Stevan Ridley at 73. A 5th-round value who was over-drafted by 2 full rounds. Although he ended with a more productive season than Vereen, he still fumbled his way into Bill's doghouse by the POs. Bill played a lousy hand of poker with this one. OLB Sam Acho & DE Allen Bailey, among others, would've been better uses of this pick.

Example #5: Lee Smith at 159. A UDFA value at a position of little need, he didn't even make the 53 out of TC. OLB Chris Carter, DE Pernell McPhee, C Scott Fusco & XBack Charles Clay all would've had better chances to contribute than Smith.

Example #6: Markell Carter at 194. I'm nitpicking here, because at least he fills a position of need, but Tyler Sash might've been the BPA regardless of position, and he would've spared us the suffering of watching Sergio, Barrett & Slater mis-play the Safety position. There's no way he could've performed any worse than those 3 butchers.

Example #7: Mal Williams at 219. Perhaps the worst 7th-round draft choice in the history of professional football, this non-priority UDFA talent would've been lucky to receive an invite to any camp at all.
What makes him such a horrible pick, besides the utter lack of a future with a team supposedly championship-driven, is the fact that Bill slapped us all in the face by refusing to do the right thing, which would've been to take Mark Herzlich instead.

I suppose I could also mention trading 92 & 125 to weird Uncle Al (as a going-away present?) for 219 last year & 48 this year, but I'm in a generous mood today.

 

[thodoks]

At this point, I'm nearly 100% convinced that the FredFromDartmouth and captain stone accounts are troll accounts. It just doesn't seem possible that so much obtuseness is unintentional.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

At this point, I'm nearly 100% convinced that the FredFromDartmouth and captain stone accounts are troll accounts. It just doesn't seem possible that so much obtuseness is unintentional.

Ha. But I do love to tweak the self-important overly-serious types here. It is football folks...so ease up. Besides football is just an opiate for the masses and a vehicle for professional gamblers.

 

[captain stone]

At this point, I'm nearly 100% convinced that the FredFromDartmouth and captain stone accounts are troll accounts. It just doesn't seem possible that so much obtuseness is unintentional.

Do you have any counter-points to offer, or just the predictable name-calling to which so many of the Belichick bum-kissers resort?

 

[Ron Sellers]

Without reading any of the other 46 posts, many of which I'm sure did nothing but kiss Bill's ass,
this is what's wrong with last year's draft (and almost every other one since 2004): over-drafting,
by neglecting value in favor of locking on a target at the expense of the current situation.

Example #1: ....

These kind of draft hindsight posts about how a team should have drafted this guy and not that guy, after the benefit of seeing how productive every player both drafted and undrafted are absolutely 100% useless. Why? Because anybody can easily go through the same exact exercise for all 32 NFL teams, each and every year to "prove" that team's draft sucked.

So if someone were to bother to take the time to do that with the 31 other teams, then what? Would it "prove" all 32 teams suck at drafting? Would it "prove posters on a message board should be making the draft picks for NFL teams? If all 32 teams were in the same boat, do they all suck at drafting ... or are they all excellent at drafting? How would you tell the difference if they were all the same?



In other words, the hindsight 'shoulda' drafted this guy' conversations that far too many fans love to bring up do not prove anything - except that some fans like to complain. At least DW Toys brought up some references for comparisons to other teams. But this type of argument is used way too often (not just by Pats fans, but by fans of all 32 NFL teams), and it is utterly useless.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

In other words, the hindsight 'shoulda' drafted this guy' conversations that far too many fans love to bring up do not prove anything - except that some fans like to complain. At least DW Toys brought up some references for comparisons to other teams. But this type of argument is used way too often (not just by Pats fans, but by fans of all 32 NFL teams), and it is utterly useless.

You have a point here.

I have no problem with criticizing a draft pick, though, if it didn't even make sense at the time (e.g., Shawn Crable).

And no, I don't count seventh-round picks as bad moves, ever.

 

[jsull87]

Without reading any of the other 46 posts, many of which I'm sure did nothing but kiss Bill's ass,
this is what's wrong with last year's draft (and almost every other one since 2004): over-drafting,
by neglecting value in favor of locking on a target at the expense of the current situation.

Example #1: Trading 28 to NO instead of 33, thereby removing the chance to draft Mo Wilkerson or Cam Heyward. Zero teams from 29-32 were going to draft Mark Ingram, so there was no reason whatsoever to deal that pick. The obviously better move would've been to wait until the next day and create an overnight market for 33. At worst, we settle for the same offer Bill accepted for 28.

Example #2: Glas-IR Dowling at 33. Due to his injury-riddled senior season, he was a late 2nd-round value who could've been likely available at 56. Instead, Bill ignores Jabaal Sheard & Brooks Reed, or maybe DaQuan Bowers, better values at a position of greater need. IR wasn't even the best DB available at 33 - that would've been Aaron Williams.

Example #3: Shane Vereen at 56. A mid-late 3rd-round value who could've been likely available at the pick used for Steven Ridley. CBs Glas-IR or Brandon Harris would've been a better value here; so too would've been WR Torrey Smith & OLB Justin Houston. Vereen wasn't even the best RB available at 56 - that would've been Mikel Leshore.

Example #4: Stevan Ridley at 73. A 5th-round value who was over-drafted by 2 full rounds. Although he ended with a more productive season than Vereen, he still fumbled his way into Bill's doghouse by the POs. Bill played a lousy hand of poker with this one. OLB Sam Acho & DE Allen Bailey, among others, would've been better uses of this pick.

Example #5: Lee Smith at 159. A UDFA value at a position of little need, he didn't even make the 53 out of TC. OLB Chris Carter, DE Pernell McPhee, C Scott Fusco & XBack Charles Clay all would've had better chances to contribute than Smith.

Example #6: Markell Carter at 194. I'm nitpicking here, because at least he fills a position of need, but Tyler Sash might've been the BPA regardless of position, and he would've spared us the suffering of watching Sergio, Barrett & Slater mis-play the Safety position. There's no way he could've performed any worse than those 3 butchers.

Example #7: Mal Williams at 219. Perhaps the worst 7th-round draft choice in the history of professional football, this non-priority UDFA talent would've been lucky to receive an invite to any camp at all.
What makes him such a horrible pick, besides the utter lack of a future with a team supposedly championship-driven, is the fact that Bill slapped us all in the face by refusing to do the right thing, which would've been to take Mark Herzlich instead.

I suppose I could also mention trading 92 & 125 to weird Uncle Al (as a going-away present?) for 219 last year & 48 this year, but I'm in a generous mood today.

I am sure someone has pointed this out to you but... you have absolutely no idea A.) if a team from 28-32 was going to pick Ingram B.) If Ras i wouldn't have been picked up the next few picks C.) i could do this for almost all picks. It only takes one team to like them and they are gone.

You are well with in your rights to not like a draft. But to state we could have got x player 10 picks later e.t.c you just have no idea about that and pretending to is ridiculous. Just because all the fans mock drafts and you value player X a certain way doesn't mean the rest of the league's scouts do. Case in point Hernandez or in contrast Vollmer.

 

[DW Toys]

Without reading any of the other 46 posts, many of which I'm sure did nothing but kiss Bill's ass,
this is what's wrong with last year's draft (and almost every other one since 2004): over-drafting,
by neglecting value in favor of locking on a target at the expense of the current situation.

Example #1: Trading 28 to NO instead of 33, thereby removing the chance to draft Mo Wilkerson or Cam Heyward. Zero teams from 29-32 were going to draft Mark Ingram, so there was no reason whatsoever to deal that pick. The obviously better move would've been to wait until the next day and create an overnight market for 33. At worst, we settle for the same offer Bill accepted for 28.

Example #2: Glas-IR Dowling at 33. Due to his injury-riddled senior season, he was a late 2nd-round value who could've been likely available at 56. Instead, Bill ignores Jabaal Sheard & Brooks Reed, or maybe DaQuan Bowers, better values at a position of greater need. IR wasn't even the best DB available at 33 - that would've been Aaron Williams.

Example #3: Shane Vereen at 56. A mid-late 3rd-round value who could've been likely available at the pick used for Steven Ridley. CBs Glas-IR or Brandon Harris would've been a better value here; so too would've been WR Torrey Smith & OLB Justin Houston. Vereen wasn't even the best RB available at 56 - that would've been Mikel Leshore.

Example #4: Stevan Ridley at 73. A 5th-round value who was over-drafted by 2 full rounds. Although he ended with a more productive season than Vereen, he still fumbled his way into Bill's doghouse by the POs. Bill played a lousy hand of poker with this one. OLB Sam Acho & DE Allen Bailey, among others, would've been better uses of this pick.

Example #5: Lee Smith at 159. A UDFA value at a position of little need, he didn't even make the 53 out of TC. OLB Chris Carter, DE Pernell McPhee, C Scott Fusco & XBack Charles Clay all would've had better chances to contribute than Smith.

Example #6: Markell Carter at 194. I'm nitpicking here, because at least he fills a position of need, but Tyler Sash might've been the BPA regardless of position, and he would've spared us the suffering of watching Sergio, Barrett & Slater mis-play the Safety position. There's no way he could've performed any worse than those 3 butchers.

Example #7: Mal Williams at 219. Perhaps the worst 7th-round draft choice in the history of professional football, this non-priority UDFA talent would've been lucky to receive an invite to any camp at all.
What makes him such a horrible pick, besides the utter lack of a future with a team supposedly championship-driven, is the fact that Bill slapped us all in the face by refusing to do the right thing, which would've been to take Mark Herzlich instead.

I suppose I could also mention trading 92 & 125 to weird Uncle Al (as a going-away present?) for 219 last year & 48 this year, but I'm in a generous mood today.

I agree with every example you stated. I don't agree with some of the picks that I might have preferred, but the evaluation to date is spot on. It could change but I doubt it. By the year 2015, only two of these choices will still be on the roster. Someone mark this.
The point to the Koolaiders is that the Pats Drafts are mediocre. One year was pretty darned good 2010. 2011, 2009, 2008,2007, 2006!!! etc. (please point out that they were spectacular and why) pretty much rotted. Every Team retains one or two at 17% success NFL Draft rate. Don't say one year Mayo, one year Ghost. Two sticking to the roster as long term starters or even valued backups up to pro bowl consideration is normal. JAGS that are replaceable are not counted. Three or more from every year is deemed a successful Draft class under those criteria.

That is why I say BB is a better trader or selects better FAs most of the time, than this nonsensical Draft down trading. He always come up with three or four FAs or Trades that are better than his Draft picks.
Anyone deny his picks of Carter, Anderson, Waters, Moore, even to a lesser extent James Ihedigbo, Warren and of late Ellis were better than his 2011 Draft class by far? Ocho is still...who knows and forget about Albert but it was a look-see. That is a pretty easy comparison to what he does best.


I believe in the Mallet and Cannon picks because they were "WTF, why not" picks. They had very high grades and were a gamble. Still are. You can throw Dowling in that mix with his college injuries. So of all the choices last year,..... and I am positive BB wasn't even in the building and went home for diner for the 7th Malcomb Whatsisname pick that was done by maybe one of Krafts grandkids who were playing in the war room or the office custodian, three were damaged goods going through the door, one was taken about right and the others were way overdrafted. Nobody can argue with Captain Stone on that. It's a valid point. The Draft is decent if Dowling, Cannon and Mallet work out. Solder is fine. The others could get cut tomorrow and they will not affect this roster and could be replaced with as good of players in the 2012 Draft. Anyone disagree?

The point is Stones argument and evaluation is solid. It's really not debatable for a few years. I give 2011 a big INC.
DW Toys

 

[jsull87]

Do you have any counter-points to offer, or just the predictable name-calling to which so many of the Belichick bum-kissers resort?

interesting in your response citing your opposition "name calling" you yourself dismiss them as belichick bum kissers.

please see counter points in previous 6 pages in which you neglected to read.

 

[DaBruinz]

Without reading any of the other 46 posts, many of which I'm sure did nothing but kiss Bill's ass,
this is what's wrong with last year's draft (and almost every other one since 2004): over-drafting,
by neglecting value in favor of locking on a target at the expense of the current situation.

Example #1: Trading 28 to NO instead of 33, thereby removing the chance to draft Mo Wilkerson or Cam Heyward. Zero teams from 29-32 were going to draft Mark Ingram, so there was no reason whatsoever to deal that pick. The obviously better move would've been to wait until the next day and create an overnight market for 33. At worst, we settle for the same offer Bill accepted for 28.

Example #2: Glas-IR Dowling at 33. Due to his injury-riddled senior season, he was a late 2nd-round value who could've been likely available at 56. Instead, Bill ignores Jabaal Sheard & Brooks Reed, or maybe DaQuan Bowers, better values at a position of greater need. IR wasn't even the best DB available at 33 - that would've been Aaron Williams.

Example #3: Shane Vereen at 56. A mid-late 3rd-round value who could've been likely available at the pick used for Steven Ridley. CBs Glas-IR or Brandon Harris would've been a better value here; so too would've been WR Torrey Smith & OLB Justin Houston. Vereen wasn't even the best RB available at 56 - that would've been Mikel Leshore.

Example #4: Stevan Ridley at 73. A 5th-round value who was over-drafted by 2 full rounds. Although he ended with a more productive season than Vereen, he still fumbled his way into Bill's doghouse by the POs. Bill played a lousy hand of poker with this one. OLB Sam Acho & DE Allen Bailey, among others, would've been better uses of this pick.

Example #5: Lee Smith at 159. A UDFA value at a position of little need, he didn't even make the 53 out of TC. OLB Chris Carter, DE Pernell McPhee, C Scott Fusco & XBack Charles Clay all would've had better chances to contribute than Smith.

Example #6: Markell Carter at 194. I'm nitpicking here, because at least he fills a position of need, but Tyler Sash might've been the BPA regardless of position, and he would've spared us the suffering of watching Sergio, Barrett & Slater mis-play the Safety position. There's no way he could've performed any worse than those 3 butchers.

Example #7: Mal Williams at 219. Perhaps the worst 7th-round draft choice in the history of professional football, this non-priority UDFA talent would've been lucky to receive an invite to any camp at all.
What makes him such a horrible pick, besides the utter lack of a future with a team supposedly championship-driven, is the fact that Bill slapped us all in the face by refusing to do the right thing, which would've been to take Mark Herzlich instead.

I suppose I could also mention trading 92 & 125 to weird Uncle Al (as a going-away present?) for 219 last year & 48 this year, but I'm in a generous mood today.

More BS from Capt. Stone. Your claims of ignoring "Value" are more BS and you wouldn't know value if it ran over you with the Battleship Missouri. Seriously. No one is "kissing Bill's ass" and your ignorant for saying so.

As always, you ignore things that the Patriots know and you don't and you think that by ignoring them you are right and they are wrong.

BTW, SFBs, I posted where Vereen and Ridley were projected. YOUR bs projections have no basis in anything but your self-absorbed arrogance.

 

[DaBruinz]

The point is Stones argument and evaluation is solid. It's really not debatable for a few years. I give 2011 a big INC.
DW Toys

This is why you are such a laughable fool. Stone's arguments and evaluations are grossly flawed. Just as yours are. As for your claims that all those years were mediocre, no, they weren't. 2007 was absolutely horrible in terms of the actual talent available in the draft. In fact, when last I looked, something like 20 picks in each of the 1st 3 rounds of that draft were already on another team or out of the league entirely.

This is something that you ignore. It's something that Stone ignores.

Just like you ignore the fact that BB and crew actually interview these guys, do film study with these guys, and run these guys through the drills. So they know how they'll be able to interact with these prospects once they are on the team. And it's information that none of us outsiders actually hear about except as random tidbits in books like "WarRoom".

Does Bill make mistakes? Sure. He's human. Just like the players. When trolls like yourself and Stone figure that out, maybe you'll be worth listening to. Until then, it's more BS from the ignorance gallery.