If you were Kraft and this season doesn’t improve, do you move on from Bill after this season?

[upstater1]

The mismanagement is not putting any true top dollar resources into the offense. Trade up and get a blue chip QB or receiver or trade for one of the 2 or 3 legit number 1 receivers that seem to be available every offseason. Sign a real tackle in free agency. Not Riley Reiff.

As for receivers, those guys suck. Hunter Henry and a few flashes from Bourne are the only ones out of that group that produced. Stop looking for deals and pay up.

Name them. I mean trade up for a top QB when you have no resources to trade sounds absurd. Name the QB and what you wanted to give up for them.

WRs leaving their current teams because of contract squabbles always agree to new contracts BEFORE they're traded. Which is why the trades happen in the first place. Tyreek and AJ Brown weren't coming to new England. Who do you think we should have traded for?

I mean it's very easy to say, WE SHOULD HAVE THAT ALL-PRO. Making it happen is another story. You need to be specific about who you would have traded for and what you would have spent.

Let me give you one example: The Dolphins traded two #1 picks and a #4th for Jaylen Waddle. The picks for Waddle were the 12th in the draft and the 13th in the draft plus a 4th. The Patriots were picking at #21 and last year at #15 (though with Waddle we may have won an extra game and had a #20 pick). What would the Eagles have preferred? The #12th and 13th 1st round picks plus a 4th? Or what New England had to give? Maybe we would have given 3 #1s for Waddle, they "might've" taken that, but I doubt it. I still think the Eagles got more than what the Patriots could've given with 3 #1s.

 

[203Pat]

Pretty obvious that Bill needed Brady a lot more than vice versa.

Maybe in a previous era where defense could play defense it would have been the other way around. Not today though. The last 20 years have been the era of offense. It's wonderful having a defensive mastermind and all but how important is that now in today's game? Brady and ONLY Brady was the missing piece that made Bill a complete coach with tools to coach this team to success on both sides of the ball.

Look at the Jets. Great defense and a bad offense and they can't win games. It's an offensive league. Good offense beats great defense 75% of the time. That Chiefs offense is shades of the 06 Pats with Mahomes carrying the island of misfit receivers to wins. I know it is a HOF QB and a great HC in Mahomes and Reid but that is just flat out not a good offense but still beat a great defense on the road in prime time because that is what the NFL is now. Offensively driven. The rules, the athletes, the money. It is all geared for the offense so banging your head overpaying big fatties to stop the run or plodding LBs to get torched on outside runs is not the way to win in 2023.

 

[upstater1]

the rams sold the house for that one super bowl, they lost their talent and important pieces after that super bowl and had no money and no draft picks

no, they have not many stars. except kupp and donald they have no blue chip player. their wr behind kupp are not better than our wr except nakua who they developed of a 5 rd. rookie

This doesn't sound like much of an argument for his abilities. They won because they brought in a bunch of stars. They didn't play all that great. Now they stink. I mean, this isn't recommending him to me at all.

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

I would love McVay were he to become available but Ben Johnson is the guy I really want us to target. Granted the Lions have more offensive talent but he caters the offense to what works for Goff. Goff is a better QB than Mac is but he is still somewhat limited in areas and Johnson finds ways around that to help him succeed.

the lions developed st brown a third rd wr. After st brown the next receiver is josh reynolds. they have a rookie TE and their backups are nobodys.
They don't have better talent than we do, they just have better offense coaches and schemes etc. and a very good offense line

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

This doesn't sound like much of an argument for his abilities. They won because they brought in a bunch of stars. They didn't play all that great. Now they stink. I mean, this isn't recommending him to me at all.

mcVay is one of the best coaches in this league, i bet 25 teams would be happy to have him as a HC right now
There is no argument needed for McVay

 

[upstater1]

That may well be so. The whole thing is sort of inescapably tragic and painful. It really is.

He has already given up the scouting part. Should be clear that the last 3 drafts are run by the Wolf/Groh team with Bill having final say, and the drafts have been good.

 

[Ras-IR Dowling]

I don't agree with the Mac criticism. He's a starting QB on 28 other teams in this league. He not the type of player that can elevate mediocre talent. A lot of starting QB's are like that.

 

[upstater1]

the lions developed st brown a third rd wr. After st brown the next receiver is josh reynolds. they have a rookie TE and their backups are nobodys.
They don't have better talent than we do, they just have better offense coaches and schemes etc. and a very good offense line

This is the argument I like because what they have that we don't is a passable maybe better than mediocre NFL QB.

I can't overstate how bad Mac is. Mac in Detroit would have that team finish 3-13.

 

[mike_usagisan]

I think they're washing the sheets in Gillete as we speak.

I just mean that if we're drafting a QB next year we need a cheap vet to start the season. I think Mac's that cheap vet.

 

[203Pat]

the lions developed st brown a third rd wr. After st brown the next receiver is josh reynolds. they have a rookie TE and their backups are nobodys.
They don't have better talent than we do, they just have better offense coaches and schemes etc. and a very good offense line

True. I didn't even really think of it that way. Gibbs is the only offensive weapon that they drafted in the first round right now. The other guys were mid to late rounders or cheap free agents. Makes me even sadder lol.

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

This is the argument I like because what they have that we don't is a passable maybe better than mediocre NFL QB.

I can't overstate how bad Mac is. Mac in Detroit would have that team finish 3-13.

i agree

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

True. I didn't even really think of it that way. Gibbs is the only offensive weapon that they drafted in the first round right now. The other guys were mid to late rounders or cheap free agents. Makes me even sadder lol.

this makes the coaching job by johnson and campbell even better, they have done a phenomenal job offensively in terms of schemes, play designs and player development. That is exactly what we are lacking on offense, so i think johnson would be great. Please no defense coach

 

[Steve102]

I don't disagree with you that we are way behind on offense.

I am asking what could have been done.

Because missing out on 2 WRs in Harry and Thornton is not all that uncommon. I just posted earlier that there were 8 WRs taken in the Tyquan draft in the first 2 rounds, and every one of them is a bust except for Pickens. That's 1 out of 8. That's rough. Talk to the Titans about Treylon Burks taken at #19.

Even if we go back to the N'Keal Harry year, there were 9 guys that went. 3 are fantastic in AJ Brown, Deebo Samuel and Metcalf (who went at the end of the round). But no one talks about the WRs who all went before Metcalf like Arcega-Whiteside, Isabella, Mecole Hardman, and yes Harry. There were a lot of busts. You look at those two draft where we expended resources and the hit rate was 5 out of 15. 33% chance. 1st 2 rounds. That's normal for the NFL. It's worse than a flip of the coin.

I agree they blew those 2 picks, but I am saying it's not like this isn't how the draft goes all the time.

And some would argue that Belichick designs the offense this way as though he doesn't want a stud #1 receiver, which is absurd.

I am aware that the draft is a crap shoot, and I am more than a little lazy to go back and dig for free agents as far back as 2018. I am certainly not going to advocate for Metcalf, as he was clearly boom or bust with his combine numbers in cone (I think it was cone) drill. I know that everyone talked about him and there was no consensus that he was "the guy".

I have been in the camp that Bill does not want to pay WR#1 money, as it throws the cap management out of whack. If he can get 80% of the production level of the top level guys, while paying 60-70% of the money they get, then he is on the better value side of the spreadsheet. I don't think he will pay top money for top production at that position, and has countered that by paying top money for a #1 CB. History shows that he has done a lousy job developing WRs and he's done an exemplary job of developing #1 CBs. It's just how he chooses to build rosters.

 

[203Pat]

Name them. I mean trade up for a top QB when you have no resources to trade sounds absurd. Name the QB and what you wanted to give up for them.

WRs leaving their current teams because of contract squabbles always agree to new contracts BEFORE they're traded. Which is why the trades happen in the first place. Tyreek and AJ Brown weren't coming to new England. Who do you think we should have traded for?

I mean it's very easy to say, WE SHOULD HAVE THAT ALL-PRO. Making it happen is another story. You need to be specific about who you would have traded for and what you would have spent.

Let me give you one example: The Dolphins traded two #1 picks and a #4th for Jaylen Waddle. The picks for Waddle were the 12th in the draft and the 13th in the draft plus a 4th. The Patriots were picking at #21 and last year at #15 (though with Waddle we may have won an extra game and had a #20 pick). What would the Eagles have preferred? The #12th and 13th 1st round picks plus a 4th? Or what New England had to give? Maybe we would have given 3 #1s for Waddle, they "might've" taken that, but I doubt it. I still think the Eagles got more than what the Patriots could've given with 3 #1s.

Recently I have been holding out hope that they could salvage Mac so I haven't wanted them to trade up for a QB. But the 2024 draft we may not even have to give up much at this point to get a top 5 player.

Tyreek I just flat out don't want because he is a horrible human being. AJ Brown I would make that trade 10 times out of 10. He is who Harry was supposed to be. Why would he "not come to New England"? A first and a third for a legitimate number one receiver?

I don't know what your argument is? Just keep going as we are? Is that what you want? Just keep hoping for the best drafting defensive players high and paying B and C level offensive players in free agency?

 

[Thelonious]

He has already given up the scouting part. Should be clear that the last 3 drafts are run by the Wolf/Groh team with Bill having final say, and the drafts have been good.

I do not AT ALL think that is sufficient. To take an incremental approach is to create ambiguities, misunderstandings, pissing contests, backbiting and other forms of horseshit which are wholly unacceptable in any properly functioning organization. The proof in any case is in the pudding: the team, which Bill built, blows.

I took over a dysfunctional group once upon a time in which "sharing" and "consensus" were all. The group was an ugly, angry, dysfunctional, squabbling mess. I laid out in what areas consensus would be sought and in which areas I would make the decisions. Where decisions were made by consensus, once the group's decision was made, it was the job of everyone, regardless of where they had stood in the deliberations, to support the decision and make it work. I said I would get rid of anybody who would not so conduct themselves. In the end, I had to get rid of two people on that basis. In a few months' time, the group was running smoothly and as copacetically as is consistent with getting **** done. Organizations need clarity, - period - if they are to work.

 

[Jangles]

I don't agree with the Mac criticism. He's a starting QB on 28 other teams in this league. He not the type of player that can elevate mediocre talent. A lot of starting QB's are like that.

Lol

Name 10 starting QBs he’s better then. Don’t use salary as a reason because he’s due for an extension soon. I can’t think of many that themselves aren’t just a temporary starter or a rookie.

 

[1960Pats]

I'd do what I've been saying they should do for years: Keep Bill the Coach. Fire Bill the GM.

Bill won't accept that. He'll go somewhere else to get his record and set his kids up, no matter how long it takes, just like he's doing here.

 

[VrabelJr]

BB is still the best in the biz. You hear it all the time from players of all experience levels how spending time with BB drastically changes their game. It’s why we don’t have very many players leave and become better than they were here.

Every team that is good right now sucked for some period of time. Whether it was a year, two years, or 20 in the case of Buffalo. Fans need to stop acting entitled and start being patient.

 

[mike_usagisan]

Bill won't accept that. He'll go somewhere else to get his record and set his kids up, no matter how long it takes, just like he's doing here.

I'm not sure it has to be official. We've seen that he was told to be more collaborative in picks the last couple years and it's obvious that he has been. I think if Kraft told him the same had to be true for the free agents, especially WRs, Bill would find a way to live with it.

 

[1960Pats]

I love Jerod. But I’m at this point too.

I’d rather you tear this regime down entirely and start over. New philosophy, new staff, everything.

I'm not big on coaching, but you never know what a new person might bring. Look at how Belichick was looked at when he came here. He was called duplicitous pond scum by one writer and the NJ crowd had him having a breakdown. He turned out okay.